You Say Arrondissement, I Say
Sep 4th, 2011, 08:47 AM
#21
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Lastly:
Guidebooks most often give the nearest metro stop. If you want to be nice enough to look up that information for other people when you post, that's great, but I don't think other people will feel a need to go to all that trouble.
And don't forget, too, that what many people on Fodor's consider a "landmark" is something or place other people have never heard of or could care less about. I could recommend a restaurant 20 steps from La Orangerie, and some longtime posters, let alone newbies, would respond: "Huh?" To me, saying the restaurant is in the First arr. makes it easier for the interested party to have some sense of where it is in relation to where they are staying and the reset of their agenda in Paris.
Guidebooks most often give the nearest metro stop. If you want to be nice enough to look up that information for other people when you post, that's great, but I don't think other people will feel a need to go to all that trouble.
And don't forget, too, that what many people on Fodor's consider a "landmark" is something or place other people have never heard of or could care less about. I could recommend a restaurant 20 steps from La Orangerie, and some longtime posters, let alone newbies, would respond: "Huh?" To me, saying the restaurant is in the First arr. makes it easier for the interested party to have some sense of where it is in relation to where they are staying and the reset of their agenda in Paris.
Sep 4th, 2011, 08:52 AM
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Sep 4th, 2011, 08:53 AM
#23
I agree that the arrondissement all by itself is insufficient information. Most Parisians use the nearest metro station as a guide, or at least the global name of a neighborhood, although not usually as broad as "Montparnasse" or "Latin Quarter." A Parisian will refer to "L
Sep 4th, 2011, 09:02 AM
#24
(keyboard malfunction -- sorry!)
I agree that the arrondissement all by itself is insufficient information. Most Parisians use the nearest metro station as a guide, or at least the global name of a neighborhood, although not usually as broad as "Montparnasse" or "Latin Quarter." A Parisian will refer to "La Butte aux Cailles" or "La Mouzaïa" to other people and only supply a metro station name if there is some confusion about the location.
Except for the very smallest arrondissements in the center, there are major differences from one side of an arrondissement to the other. For example, I live in the 18th arrondissement but not at all in Montmartre, but if I qualify my exact location to other people, they discover that I am not in the sometimes dreaded "Goutte d'Or" (although it starts only 100 meters from my place) but in the new bohemian magnet of "La Chapelle" which is changing at top speed, with huge construction projects that will be completed next year. Details like that mean little to tourists, but if you at least have the name of the metro station, it helps you to investigate more efficiently regarding the real feel of an area.
I agree that the arrondissement all by itself is insufficient information. Most Parisians use the nearest metro station as a guide, or at least the global name of a neighborhood, although not usually as broad as "Montparnasse" or "Latin Quarter." A Parisian will refer to "La Butte aux Cailles" or "La Mouzaïa" to other people and only supply a metro station name if there is some confusion about the location.
Except for the very smallest arrondissements in the center, there are major differences from one side of an arrondissement to the other. For example, I live in the 18th arrondissement but not at all in Montmartre, but if I qualify my exact location to other people, they discover that I am not in the sometimes dreaded "Goutte d'Or" (although it starts only 100 meters from my place) but in the new bohemian magnet of "La Chapelle" which is changing at top speed, with huge construction projects that will be completed next year. Details like that mean little to tourists, but if you at least have the name of the metro station, it helps you to investigate more efficiently regarding the real feel of an area.
Sep 4th, 2011, 09:58 AM
#25
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I like Kerouac's way...for me what I need to know more than anything is usually which Metro stop is the correct one.
I only know the more central arrondissements...where I have failed Kerouac miserably is venturing out and learning the less central locations....but this trip I am planning on it and have made arrangements to get away from the usual tourist stuff with a Parisian resident!
I only know the more central arrondissements...where I have failed Kerouac miserably is venturing out and learning the less central locations....but this trip I am planning on it and have made arrangements to get away from the usual tourist stuff with a Parisian resident!
Sep 4th, 2011, 11:56 AM
#26
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"I'm not clear as to why you think the behavior of you and your husband is typical or relevant."
Really? Where did I say that? You may join ira in snarkiness.
"I'm also not clear why your accusing people of somehow making your life miserable."
Where did I say that?
*********************
zep and kerouac, metro station stops could very well be more meaningful to tourists-especially the diy ones. Indeed, the DK section maps do show the metro stops.
Again, my only point is that many folks (including me) don't have the same familiarity with the same things that natives and frequent visitors have.
Really? Where did I say that? You may join ira in snarkiness.
"I'm also not clear why your accusing people of somehow making your life miserable."
Where did I say that?
*********************
zep and kerouac, metro station stops could very well be more meaningful to tourists-especially the diy ones. Indeed, the DK section maps do show the metro stops.
Again, my only point is that many folks (including me) don't have the same familiarity with the same things that natives and frequent visitors have.
Sep 4th, 2011, 12:13 PM
#28
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If someone is asking a question on this thread, I'm hoping he or she HAS looked at a map, nytraveler!
Again, my only point was that advice which simply refers to an arrondissement isn't enough!
Again, my only point was that advice which simply refers to an arrondissement isn't enough!
Sep 4th, 2011, 01:16 PM
#29
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This is not such a difficult question to address, after all. I believe all the OP is saying is that it's not necessarily useful to suggest that a newbie to Paris "stay in the 4th, 5th, or 6th arrondissement." I think all she's saying is...tell the poster that's the Marais, Latin Quarter, or St-Germain" and maybe point out some well-known sights a first-timer could be near if staying in one of those.
And maybe include a map of Paris in the post.
At least I think that's all she was aiming to point out.
And maybe include a map of Paris in the post.
At least I think that's all she was aiming to point out.
Sep 4th, 2011, 01:57 PM
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I've found when looking for hotels, that most websites list them by arrondisement. And now that I've been there five or six times, I know which arrondisements I like best (and it usually doesn't have much to do with being close to this site or that museum. )
It's kind of like Washington, DC...designed by a Frenchman, originally. It is helpful to know if an address is in NW, SW, NE or SE. Both cities are unique in that way, and I kind of like it.
Of course, I still like maps, and that's how the map is laid out. So maybe I'm just turning into an old curmudgeon (or is a female curmudgeon a curmudgette? )
It's kind of like Washington, DC...designed by a Frenchman, originally. It is helpful to know if an address is in NW, SW, NE or SE. Both cities are unique in that way, and I kind of like it.
Of course, I still like maps, and that's how the map is laid out. So maybe I'm just turning into an old curmudgeon (or is a female curmudgeon a curmudgette? )
Sep 4th, 2011, 05:54 PM
#33
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TD, I feel the opposite way. I can look at a map and see the borders of the arrondissements, so they make sense to me (and 1 - 7 are easy to remember). But I have no idea where the Latin Quarter ends and St Germain begins, or where the Marais begins and ends.
A metro station is a good point of reference, but there are so many stations that it helps to know which arrondissement to find a particular station in.
A metro station is a good point of reference, but there are so many stations that it helps to know which arrondissement to find a particular station in.
Sep 5th, 2011, 06:02 AM
#34
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Thank you, StCirq!
uhoh_busted, when you first went to Paris, you chose your hotel by specific arrondissement first? You didn't want to be near any particular sight(s)? And, BTW, the quadrants of DC (and other U.S. cities) can be very confusing for first-time tourists.
ardithl, I hear you. After my breathing woes began, the metro stairs became problems so Hub and I started taking busses and the stops became our focus. But again, we were almost always headed to specific places or areas. If we did do a stroll, it was "along the Seine", the area with the Art Deco balconies or Park Monceau.
uhoh_busted, when you first went to Paris, you chose your hotel by specific arrondissement first? You didn't want to be near any particular sight(s)? And, BTW, the quadrants of DC (and other U.S. cities) can be very confusing for first-time tourists.
ardithl, I hear you. After my breathing woes began, the metro stairs became problems so Hub and I started taking busses and the stops became our focus. But again, we were almost always headed to specific places or areas. If we did do a stroll, it was "along the Seine", the area with the Art Deco balconies or Park Monceau.
Sep 5th, 2011, 10:35 AM
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I'm planning our 4th stay in Paris and over time, I've become familiar with the arrondissements (1-7!), metro stops, area names, zipcodes + the location of popular sights.
On this same trip, we will be going to London. Although it's our second time in London, I'm probably more familiar with the names of the areas & the location of popular sights/landmarks than the zipcodes. Trying to figure out the location of a hotel based solely on a zipcode (eg. SW1) without the area name (eg. Belgravia) or a nearby Tube station (eg. Victoria) would be very challenging. I am constantly referring to my A-Z London map!
So, I have to agree that referring to an arrondissement alone is not necessarily that informative to someone who is new to Paris. Why not include additional information if it's helpful?
On this same trip, we will be going to London. Although it's our second time in London, I'm probably more familiar with the names of the areas & the location of popular sights/landmarks than the zipcodes. Trying to figure out the location of a hotel based solely on a zipcode (eg. SW1) without the area name (eg. Belgravia) or a nearby Tube station (eg. Victoria) would be very challenging. I am constantly referring to my A-Z London map!
So, I have to agree that referring to an arrondissement alone is not necessarily that informative to someone who is new to Paris. Why not include additional information if it's helpful?
Sep 5th, 2011, 11:08 AM
#36
You are absolutely right, particularly since some places are the intersection of 2, 3 or even 4 arrondissements.
For example, Montparnasse is a major location for Parisian moviegoers, but the cinemas are listed in the weekly guides (Pariscope and L'Officiel des Spectacles) by arrondissement. If you want to see a movie in Montparnasse (I mean directly at the Montparnasse-Bienvenuë metro station), you have to check the listings for the 6th, 14th and 15th arrondissements.
For example, Montparnasse is a major location for Parisian moviegoers, but the cinemas are listed in the weekly guides (Pariscope and L'Officiel des Spectacles) by arrondissement. If you want to see a movie in Montparnasse (I mean directly at the Montparnasse-Bienvenuë metro station), you have to check the listings for the 6th, 14th and 15th arrondissements.
Sep 5th, 2011, 11:26 AM
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TDudette,
In an earlier post, when you talked about how you and your husband NEVER ONCE referred to an arrondisement, you appeared to be at least attempting to make some kind of point. If you were not trying to make the point that you think ordinary people don't talk about arrondisements, what was your point.
Likewise, you mentioned the size of the type in a DK guide as an indication of --- what? I never use DK guides. I think they are misleading, with all those pictures, as if Paris was a collection of unconnected WOW stuff to gawk at.
One of the easiest ways to get a grip on the history and integrity of Paris is to learn why the arrondisesment are numbered and ordered the way they are.
I disagree totally with people who say everybody would find it easier if newbies we're told "stay in St Germain" or "don't stay in Montparnasse," Those place names are much harder to track down on a map or keep in mind. I think many an experience Paris traveller would have a hard time if you gave them an outline of Paris, bisected by the Seine, and then said: "Draw a circle around Montmartre, Opera, Belleville and Oberkampf."
But most 10 year olds with a half-hour's instruction could do a pretty good job of filling in the spiral of arrondissements starting with 1 through 20. I think the nitpicking about things on corners is esoteric.
To me, London is REALLY HARD. Being told something is in SW2 is tough. All I know is that I can't walk to a restaurant in NW or EC from there. But I think somebody who is about to drop several thousand bucks on a trip to Paris should get a grip on the idea of arrondissements and the basic layout -- not because we are giving a test, but because it's the only logical way to get a sense of direction in Paris.
In an earlier post, when you talked about how you and your husband NEVER ONCE referred to an arrondisement, you appeared to be at least attempting to make some kind of point. If you were not trying to make the point that you think ordinary people don't talk about arrondisements, what was your point.
Likewise, you mentioned the size of the type in a DK guide as an indication of --- what? I never use DK guides. I think they are misleading, with all those pictures, as if Paris was a collection of unconnected WOW stuff to gawk at.
One of the easiest ways to get a grip on the history and integrity of Paris is to learn why the arrondisesment are numbered and ordered the way they are.
I disagree totally with people who say everybody would find it easier if newbies we're told "stay in St Germain" or "don't stay in Montparnasse," Those place names are much harder to track down on a map or keep in mind. I think many an experience Paris traveller would have a hard time if you gave them an outline of Paris, bisected by the Seine, and then said: "Draw a circle around Montmartre, Opera, Belleville and Oberkampf."
But most 10 year olds with a half-hour's instruction could do a pretty good job of filling in the spiral of arrondissements starting with 1 through 20. I think the nitpicking about things on corners is esoteric.
To me, London is REALLY HARD. Being told something is in SW2 is tough. All I know is that I can't walk to a restaurant in NW or EC from there. But I think somebody who is about to drop several thousand bucks on a trip to Paris should get a grip on the idea of arrondissements and the basic layout -- not because we are giving a test, but because it's the only logical way to get a sense of direction in Paris.
Sep 5th, 2011, 11:42 AM
#39
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kerouac,
Your post about what locals call their neighborhoods is a glorious illustration of exactly why the arrondissement system was created. The utility of it made Paris the most modern city in Europe, and the envy of its rival capitals. It was it was adopted for the US model.
In Italy, the locals still refer to their neighborhoods in DIALECT, not even in standard Italian. It is among the reasons the Italians have one of the worst postal delivery "system" on the planet. The rationality of the arrondissement, the imposition of ideal order on a chaotic, human space, the egalitarian ideal of a uniform system IS Paris. You can't go to Paris without going to its arrondissements.
Sorry for the rant, but over and over I read posts on messages from people asking that Europe be Americanized for them as a traveler. (Pace TDudette, OK? Or call me snarky if you want but this is important.)
If you want an Americanized Europe -- GO TO TUSCANY! Okay? Simple? Go to Provence. But if you would like to meet the challenge of Europe, and learn from it, and learn American history in the process, go to Paris -- not some oversimplification of it.
basta.
Your post about what locals call their neighborhoods is a glorious illustration of exactly why the arrondissement system was created. The utility of it made Paris the most modern city in Europe, and the envy of its rival capitals. It was it was adopted for the US model.
In Italy, the locals still refer to their neighborhoods in DIALECT, not even in standard Italian. It is among the reasons the Italians have one of the worst postal delivery "system" on the planet. The rationality of the arrondissement, the imposition of ideal order on a chaotic, human space, the egalitarian ideal of a uniform system IS Paris. You can't go to Paris without going to its arrondissements.
Sorry for the rant, but over and over I read posts on messages from people asking that Europe be Americanized for them as a traveler. (Pace TDudette, OK? Or call me snarky if you want but this is important.)
If you want an Americanized Europe -- GO TO TUSCANY! Okay? Simple? Go to Provence. But if you would like to meet the challenge of Europe, and learn from it, and learn American history in the process, go to Paris -- not some oversimplification of it.
basta.
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