You Say Arrondissement, I Say
 

Near the Eiffel Tower! or Montparnasse area....

Would it be too much trouble to add a landmark or area when referring to a specific arrondissement? Unless you are totally familiar with these areas (or a posturing phony-LOL), mentioning arrondissement without further info means nothing to me. Am I alone in this?

This should help, bookmark it and you are good to go:

http://www.beau-paris.com/vacation-r...n_parismap.htm

Thanks DebitNM but that's an extra step I'd rather NOT have to take, hence the request.

;;)

Not totally, because it would still be worth your while to not only have the locations of famous tourist sights, but to start by looking at a good birds'-eye view map of Paris and getting a grip on the urban layout.

http://www.aviewoncities.com/paris/arrondissements.htm

Familiarize yourself with the idea that Paris spread out over time from an historic core, and the numbers roughly follow concentric rings of development. The city has been renovated many times from its birth, but it still bears a certain imprint of its medieval beginnings, so that the lower the number of the arrondisement, the more medieval the layout (roughly speaking).

If your attraction to Paris is 19th c. fin di siecle, you might want to stay in the parts of Paris that flourished when the vision of the city was to usher in an age of New Art or Art Nouveau. (6 to 9). This is probably the Paris most people are most sentimental about.

If you are more interested in the streetscape of pre-revolutionary Paris, stay in 5 and below. Above 9, you start to get into independent villages incorporated into greater Paris, and they can have interesting remnants of their former selves, and also have great local histories for being the "cheap" places artists fled to in search of affordable rents.

Of course you can find examples of every moment of history throughout Paris, but that might give you some picture of where you want to locate yourself in Paris.

If you have a long list of disconnected tourist sites -- one day the Louvre, the next day Moulin Rouge, another day Laduree, better to just get a good detailed street map of Paris that also delineates the arrondisement. Put a circle around every sight you know you definitely want to see. Pick a hotel near the greatest concentration of your circles.

Parisians identify with their arrondisement in the same way New Yorkers identify with their cultural neighborhood, so it is worth getting some feeling for their differences. A New Yoerker, when asked where he or she lives, will most often answer: "Lower East side" or "hell's kitchen" or "Chelsea." Although only a handful of Parisian neighborhoods go by a name instead of a number, Parisians have an attachment to their corner of the city.

You're probably not alone in not knowing what landmarks are in what arrondissement but what is the context of your request?

The only time I recall people mentioning arrondissements is in responding to the "where to stay" question or in trip reports. Aren't guide books organized by arrondissements so that would give people a reference.

I would love to help out with this but I have no idea what you mean. Please help the responders understand your request. Thanks!

Another question - if people don't understand where arrondissements are located (and they are clearly noted on maps) then will they understand where Montparnasse is (for example)? Will they understand a reference to the Cluny Museum as a landmark?

Funny! DebiNM and I were posting at the same time.

I don't know what to say TDudette, if you want to visit Paris but you don't want to "take the extra step" of understanding the layout of the city. To me, it's like somebody complaining that someone told them the Metropolitan Museum was on the upper east side of Manhattan, while the DIA foundation is in Chelsea, and they don't want' to take the "extra step" of learning the difference between these two locales.

I've really nothing against people parachuting into a city with a sightseeing list and checking it off. I've done it. (I've been to Brussels more than once and still have no clue about the city of Brussels. I simply bee-lined from one sight of interest to another.)

But if you want to know Paris, the arrondisement are essential to its urbanity, and you can't skip that step if you want to come to know the greatest urban space ever created in Europe.

Sorry for persistently misspelling arrondissement in my posts! (I'm not setting a good example, but I hope you catch my drift.)

My dear friends, my request was as simple as I am. There are many folks who are new to this forum and new to traveling. If someone says, "I want to stay near the Eiffel Tower", then knowing the names of the hotels is what's important to them. I suppose that's the context, adrienne.

DH and I visited Paris several times. We never once said "Let us pop over to the 3rd and see the Montparnasse Tower"! Indeed, the DK book we used over the years shows a map of Central Paris. Although the map IS color-coded by arrondissement, the areas are named (e.g., Latin Quarter, The Marais) not arrondissement number. The word arrondissement is not to be found on these map pages (1997 edition, pp.12-13). In later sections, DK further refines its introduction into those time frames which Zeppole named, but DK again refers to sites and street maps.

Get it?

It is pretty easy to remember where the Eiffel Tower is located and still not know it is in the 7th and what is the necessity of knowing the arrondissement number when you already KNOW where something is located?

I understadn where you are coming form TDudette, I have been to Paris 4 times and I agree. I think I have the lay of the land now, but if I was just researching for the first itme I ouwld rather know the landmarks to start...

Hey TD,

>that's an extra step I'd rather NOT have to take, hence the request. <

Why should I spend extra time helping you with each arrond if you can;t be bthered to look at a map and learn them for yourself?

((I))

After Zep mentioned the areas in New York City, I took myself to that DK book (sorry Fodor's but DH and I loved the DKs). Its intro map does have areas marked by name but the print is quite smaller than the Paris one and the photo insets (or are they outsets?) are much larger. Again, the emphasis is on the site.

There's nothing wrong with mentioning the general area-just make it a little more "newbie friendly".

If I say you should head to Oberkapmf or Belleville, does that mean more to you than if I say you should head to this or that arrondissement? I'm not sure I understand the inherent connection between an arrondissement number and a name designation for a certain part of Paris.

There's a difference between giving map references (arrondissements) prior to a trip and talking about going some place once you are in Paris. I think if people are so new to Paris and have limited knowledge they won't understand Latin Quarter or Marais any better than 4th or 5th.

Knowing the arrondissement is helpful when looking for hotels as the last 2 digits of the postal code is the arrondissement. This gives a good reference if you don't know where the street is located.

Even though Let's Go taught me to identify Paris areas by arrondissement many years ago I will try to be more helpful to others and identify the area and arrondissement, if I know what the area is called.

The problem is that I only know the names for a few areas - I have no idea what the alternate name is for the 1st, 2nd, 7th through 15th and the 17th. I don't have a DK book and I'd rather not take the extra step either to find out. Oh well.

Good points, StCirq and adrienne. But you would know the name of the site, yes? Again, I'm just trying to make it easier for some of us....

A tad snarky, ira. Surely you understood what I am asking.

TDudette,

I'm not clear as to why you think the behavior of you and your husband is typical or relevant. I have been in Paris many times with my husband and said: "Let's go up to the 18th and get some exercise!" (Or vice versa: "Oh, please. That's in the 18th! I just don't feel up to it." I also have feeings about the 14eme, and the 2eme.

You brought this up, and I think you've gotten many nice responses. I'm also not clear why your accusing people of somehow making your life miserable.

It is common parlance in many cities to talk about a general area and expect other people to know what they are talking about. If you were visiting New York, I suppose I could say: "The restaurant is not far from where the Naked Cowboy stands," but most people wouldn't be too confused if I said "It's near Times Square" (even though the Times building is no longer in Times Square).

Learning how to orienting yourself mentally by arrondissement is much easier, I think, than memorizing where Murray Hill is in relation to Morninghside Heights if you want to get from the Morgan Library to the cathedral of St John the Divine. If you know you are in the 2eme, and your guidebook gives an address of a restaurant with a "zip code" ending in "15", you know you can't walk there to for lunch.

Sorry for all those many typos! I really must start using the preview button!

Let me try this:

To me it is just as easy to keep in my head where the 7eme is in relation to the 2eme as it is to keep in my head where the east 20s are in New York in relation to Queens or the west 50s. I had to learn both by looking at maps, but it wasn't very hard. Paris is easy, but if you refuse to take the step of looking a map, of course finding places is hard!

Lastly:

Guidebooks most often give the nearest metro stop. If you want to be nice enough to look up that information for other people when you post, that's great, but I don't think other people will feel a need to go to all that trouble.

And don't forget, too, that what many people on Fodor's consider a "landmark" is something or place other people have never heard of or could care less about. I could recommend a restaurant 20 steps from La Orangerie, and some longtime posters, let alone newbies, would respond: "Huh?" To me, saying the restaurant is in the First arr. makes it easier for the interested party to have some sense of where it is in relation to where they are staying and the reset of their agenda in Paris.

Why not just bookmark this handy Google map of Paris arrondissements ?

http://g.co/maps/7pk7

I agree that the arrondissement all by itself is insufficient information. Most Parisians use the nearest metro station as a guide, or at least the global name of a neighborhood, although not usually as broad as "Montparnasse" or "Latin Quarter." A Parisian will refer to "L

(keyboard malfunction -- sorry!)

I agree that the arrondissement all by itself is insufficient information. Most Parisians use the nearest metro station as a guide, or at least the global name of a neighborhood, although not usually as broad as "Montparnasse" or "Latin Quarter." A Parisian will refer to "La Butte aux Cailles" or "La Mouzaïa" to other people and only supply a metro station name if there is some confusion about the location.

Except for the very smallest arrondissements in the center, there are major differences from one side of an arrondissement to the other. For example, I live in the 18th arrondissement but not at all in Montmartre, but if I qualify my exact location to other people, they discover that I am not in the sometimes dreaded "Goutte d'Or" (although it starts only 100 meters from my place) but in the new bohemian magnet of "La Chapelle" which is changing at top speed, with huge construction projects that will be completed next year. Details like that mean little to tourists, but if you at least have the name of the metro station, it helps you to investigate more efficiently regarding the real feel of an area.

I like Kerouac's way...for me what I need to know more than anything is usually which Metro stop is the correct one.

I only know the more central arrondissements...where I have failed Kerouac miserably is venturing out and learning the less central locations....but this trip I am planning on it and have made arrangements to get away from the usual tourist stuff with a Parisian resident!

"I'm not clear as to why you think the behavior of you and your husband is typical or relevant."

Really? Where did I say that? You may join ira in snarkiness.

"I'm also not clear why your accusing people of somehow making your life miserable."

Where did I say that?

*********************

zep and kerouac, metro station stops could very well be more meaningful to tourists-especially the diy ones. Indeed, the DK section maps do show the metro stops.

Again, my only point is that many folks (including me) don't have the same familiarity with the same things that natives and frequent visitors have.

Um, looking at a map for a minute would make it much less mysterious.

If someone is asking a question on this thread, I'm hoping he or she HAS looked at a map, nytraveler!

Again, my only point was that advice which simply refers to an arrondissement isn't enough!

This is not such a difficult question to address, after all. I believe all the OP is saying is that it's not necessarily useful to suggest that a newbie to Paris "stay in the 4th, 5th, or 6th arrondissement." I think all she's saying is...tell the poster that's the Marais, Latin Quarter, or St-Germain" and maybe point out some well-known sights a first-timer could be near if staying in one of those.

And maybe include a map of Paris in the post.

At least I think that's all she was aiming to point out.

>...all the OP is saying is...<

Perhaps I could also direct the newbie to the nearest bus stop once they arrive?

Welcome to snarkyness, Zep.

((I))

I've found when looking for hotels, that most websites list them by arrondisement. And now that I've been there five or six times, I know which arrondisements I like best (and it usually doesn't have much to do with being close to this site or that museum. )

It's kind of like Washington, DC...designed by a Frenchman, originally. It is helpful to know if an address is in NW, SW, NE or SE. Both cities are unique in that way, and I kind of like it.

Of course, I still like maps, and that's how the map is laid out. So maybe I'm just turning into an old curmudgeon (or is a female curmudgeon a curmudgette? )

sigh. I can spell. I just get excited.

TD, I feel the opposite way. I can look at a map and see the borders of the arrondissements, so they make sense to me (and 1 - 7 are easy to remember). But I have no idea where the Latin Quarter ends and St Germain begins, or where the Marais begins and ends.

A metro station is a good point of reference, but there are so many stations that it helps to know which arrondissement to find a particular station in.

Thank you, StCirq!

uhoh_busted, when you first went to Paris, you chose your hotel by specific arrondissement first? You didn't want to be near any particular sight(s)? And, BTW, the quadrants of DC (and other U.S. cities) can be very confusing for first-time tourists.

ardithl, I hear you. After my breathing woes began, the metro stairs became problems so Hub and I started taking busses and the stops became our focus. But again, we were almost always headed to specific places or areas. If we did do a stroll, it was "along the Seine", the area with the Art Deco balconies or Park Monceau.

I'm planning our 4th stay in Paris and over time, I've become familiar with the arrondissements (1-7!), metro stops, area names, zipcodes + the location of popular sights.

On this same trip, we will be going to London. Although it's our second time in London, I'm probably more familiar with the names of the areas & the location of popular sights/landmarks than the zipcodes. Trying to figure out the location of a hotel based solely on a zipcode (eg. SW1) without the area name (eg. Belgravia) or a nearby Tube station (eg. Victoria) would be very challenging. I am constantly referring to my A-Z London map!

So, I have to agree that referring to an arrondissement alone is not necessarily that informative to someone who is new to Paris. Why not include additional information if it's helpful?

You are absolutely right, particularly since some places are the intersection of 2, 3 or even 4 arrondissements.

For example, Montparnasse is a major location for Parisian moviegoers, but the cinemas are listed in the weekly guides (Pariscope and L'Officiel des Spectacles) by arrondissement. If you want to see a movie in Montparnasse (I mean directly at the Montparnasse-Bienvenuë metro station), you have to check the listings for the 6th, 14th and 15th arrondissements.

TDudette,

In an earlier post, when you talked about how you and your husband NEVER ONCE referred to an arrondisement, you appeared to be at least attempting to make some kind of point. If you were not trying to make the point that you think ordinary people don't talk about arrondisements, what was your point.

Likewise, you mentioned the size of the type in a DK guide as an indication of --- what? I never use DK guides. I think they are misleading, with all those pictures, as if Paris was a collection of unconnected WOW stuff to gawk at.

One of the easiest ways to get a grip on the history and integrity of Paris is to learn why the arrondisesment are numbered and ordered the way they are.

I disagree totally with people who say everybody would find it easier if newbies we're told "stay in St Germain" or "don't stay in Montparnasse," Those place names are much harder to track down on a map or keep in mind. I think many an experience Paris traveller would have a hard time if you gave them an outline of Paris, bisected by the Seine, and then said: "Draw a circle around Montmartre, Opera, Belleville and Oberkampf."

But most 10 year olds with a half-hour's instruction could do a pretty good job of filling in the spiral of arrondissements starting with 1 through 20. I think the nitpicking about things on corners is esoteric.

To me, London is REALLY HARD. Being told something is in SW2 is tough. All I know is that I can't walk to a restaurant in NW or EC from there. But I think somebody who is about to drop several thousand bucks on a trip to Paris should get a grip on the idea of arrondissements and the basic layout -- not because we are giving a test, but because it's the only logical way to get a sense of direction in Paris.

PS: I would say the same of Washingtong, DC, which was laid out according to the same Cartesian ideal.

kerouac,

Your post about what locals call their neighborhoods is a glorious illustration of exactly why the arrondissement system was created. The utility of it made Paris the most modern city in Europe, and the envy of its rival capitals. It was it was adopted for the US model.

In Italy, the locals still refer to their neighborhoods in DIALECT, not even in standard Italian. It is among the reasons the Italians have one of the worst postal delivery "system" on the planet. The rationality of the arrondissement, the imposition of ideal order on a chaotic, human space, the egalitarian ideal of a uniform system IS Paris. You can't go to Paris without going to its arrondissements.

Sorry for the rant, but over and over I read posts on messages from people asking that Europe be Americanized for them as a traveler. (Pace TDudette, OK? Or call me snarky if you want but this is important.)

If you want an Americanized Europe -- GO TO TUSCANY! Okay? Simple? Go to Provence. But if you would like to meet the challenge of Europe, and learn from it, and learn American history in the process, go to Paris -- not some oversimplification of it.

basta.

Pace? It was never a war, zep, but you surely made a mountain out of a mole hill!