Lauren,

Thanks.

Yes, especially with this itinerary we were lucky to be able to spread it over several weeks.

gruezi

Fine report.

Another good movie is "The White Rose," but be prepared for a jerk in the stomach at the end.

gruezi,

I am happy you have come back to finish this report. I am looking foreward to hear about both your and your DD experience at Dachau.

Sounds like you had a very nice and informative trip.

Tom

Thank you, gruezi, for continuing your trip report. So glad you and your daughter were able to visit the Wannsee villa. If you didn't watch the DVD Conspiracy, you may find it especially interesting now that you've visited the site. (I think, or hope, I mentioned this on your other thread calling for recommendations.) The film's dialgoue is verbatim, taken from the minutes of the meeting.

I'm jealous of your visit to The Pergamon! I actually visited the Pergamon site in Turkey this summer and wished so much that I could see the antiquities that are no longer there but housed in the Berlin museum.

Thanks again for sharing your trip with us; I'm still a faithful follower. Gosh, I wish you were my mom! Your daughters are so fortunate.

Hey thanks everyone for reading and for checking back in!

Lucy - you must get to Berlin - it's a wonderful city with amazing museums. I hope to get back sometime soon.

Underhill - I think we may be ready for a few more movies over holiday break - and as I said that's a topic my daughter is very interested in.

Tom - thanks for your support as always... Here is Dachau...

gruezi

I really loved your report, on so many levels.

We went to Paris, Normandy/Bayeux, Mont St Michel and cruising on the Canal du Nantes Brest this summer. Your descriptions of Normandy and Mont St Michel are so vivid, it made me feel I was there with you.

Like you, I enjoy travelling with our boys, ages 13 and 15. They are both history buffs and watching their response to WWII sights is so much fun. It does get tricky as they get older, doesn't it? In some ways, it is easier to travel with younger children, in that you just plan the itinerary and take them with you.

I've been thinking about travelling to Berlin for a while now. So many people recommend it and your enthusiasm makes me think about it again.

As I read your report, I thought of the great WWII sites we've been to and am starting to make a list of more. So far, we've seen:
London - Imperial War Museum, Cabinet War Rooms, Churchill Museum
France - Omaha Beach, Arromanches, Pont du Hoc, American Cemetery (loved the Bayeux tapestry too)
Amsterdam - Ann Frank House
Hawaii - Pearl Harbor
Japan - Hiroshima and Peace Park

We want to see:
Berlin
Eagle's Nest
Concentration Camp
Russia - maybe Moscow?

Any more suggestions? Thanks.

P.S. You guys really prepare for a trip!

<b>Dachau Concentration Camp</b>

The final leg of this trip was our visit to Dachau… Both girls and my husband would be along. (I debated sending my husband with my older daughter and not having my younger daughter go, but she seemed ready after our trip to Berlin.)

We decided to visit Dachau on a Friday and then drive to Schwangau and spend the night there and the next morning see Neuschwanstein castle. I wanted to combine it with Neuschwanstein Castle because I wanted our family to have some time together away from the distractions of home after the visit to Dachau.

We left quite early in the morning from Zurich and drove up to Dachau in terrible, horrible pouring rain. It took under 4 hours including getting fined in Austria for 110 Euros for not having a proper sticker on our car. (Of course it’s hard to sweat the small stuff when you are on the way to Dachau, so my husband took it pretty well.)

I will disclose here that my girls did not even want to go to Dachau, and went under a bit of duress. They were afraid of how difficult it would be to see the camp after all they had learned of the Holocaust. I felt very edgy myself the whole drive up. It was a somber, quiet car ride.

Despite our lack of enthusiasm, I felt it important to the whole journey to honor those that perished by visiting one of the places where the Holocaust was perpetrated. I promised the girls that we would leave if it was too hard to bear. I made sure we had a good meal beforehand so no low blood sugar as happens in our family a lot on road trips. (Actually, for the first time in about 20 years, I ate at McDonalds because the rest of the town of Dachau was shut down for a bike race. Know what? Big Macs are a lot smaller in Bavaria than in the US.)

When we arrived at Dachau, the weather did improve a bit. Downpours stopped, although the day remained gray and dreary. My husband got audios for us all, which were very helpful and guided us through the whole camp.

I will never forget the gate at Dachau. The sign “Arbeit Macht Frei” is in so many movies, but it is not real until you see it in person. The open area where the daily head counts took place also is very familiar from the movies. Again, not real until you see it in person. I think these two areas were the most haunting for me and where I felt the definite presence of a “pain body.”

Beyond the gate and open area, there is a barrack with sleeping/bathing quarters, also 4 religious memorials (Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, and Russian Orthodox), 2 crematoriums and a gas chamber, plus a forested area where executions by gunshot took place - all of these can be entered and are discussed on the audio. Much of the camp has been destroyed, so only a few reconstructed barracks remain, which gives the camp a more open feel and you do need to imagine how claustrophobic it really would have been. I think it takes an adult perspective to really understand the crowding, privacy and health issues. To a kid the clean, empty barrack may look a bit like summer camp.

The gas chamber here was never actually used, but the crematoriums were. They look much as depicted in all the movies, and it is surreal and creepy to be inside and especially when you see the crematorium ovens. We didn’t linger long. Same with the area in the woods where people were executed by gunshots. Chilling.

We spent a bit of time in the religious memorials and the girls lit a candle in the Protestant church as they had done in the Catholic chapel at the Berlin wall memorial. There is a beautiful mural in the Russian Orthodox chapel depicting Christ opening the gate of Dachau and releasing all the suffering prisoners. If you go to Dachau do try to see this. It brought tears to my eyes.

One thing I wished I had done was brought some flowers to place at the memorial at the entrance to the camp near the museum. It’s a very hopeless feeling to be at Dachau, and I think we would have liked to leave something behind out of respect.

There is a sign outside the Dachau museum building saying the exhibit there is not suitable for those under 12. We didn't spend a lot of time in the museum except for viewing the movie, as we had seen so much already about the Holocaust so reading more about it was not the intention of our visit. The girls were again a bit nervous about watching the movie, and so we sat by the exit and I told them to just quietly leave if it was too sad, but both stayed. The movie was not too graphic except for some heart-wrenching photos at the end of the many emaciated corpses being wheeled off, stacked in piles in overflowing carts. Weeks later I still have a pretty haunting visual of this stuck in my head. The movie did provide a decent overview of the Nazi history and the opening and uses, and types of prisoners held at the many camps, and specifically Dachau.

We spent about 2.5 hours at Dachau. You could certainly spend a lot more time.

Afterward, the girls both said visiting Dachau was not as bad as they thought it would be. &quot;Creepy&quot; was the word used. They said watching &quot;Schindler's List&quot; was a lot worse emotionally...That said, my younger daughter and I both had bad dreams that night, but not about Dachau itself...

I’m glad we visited the concentration camp and I’m glad it was the last part of our trip. It seemed fitting to end our journey honoring the victims of the Nazis in a place where many had spent their final days.

Hey Travelgirl...

Thanks for reading this very long report!

Yes, I agree, teens are tricky. But, if you're patient it is fascinating traveling with young adults.

A place we did not get to, but wanted to would be Krakow. I still hope to get there. If you go to Berlin you must go to the Wannsee Convention House. And yes! Berlin is a really amazing place. Your boys would love it. The Reichstag alone is worth the trip.

I wonder if you read my original planning thread here? There is so much wonderful information on places to visit from all the Fodor's experts.

If you search gruezi and Holocaust the thread should come up. I'll try to top it.

Keep in touch...

gruezi

I've spent so much time in the lounge, that I've missed a lot of what goes on here on the Europe board. I'll definitely search for your planning thread.

Schindler's List is a movie I've never been able to bring myself to watch. The Pianist and Life Is Beautiful were wonderful movies, but the memories from them are haunting, even many years later.

Just a note to say the Cabinet War Rooms in London are not a re-creation, but the real thing. They were closed up after the war and stayed frozen in time until not so long ago. The sense of this adds to the experience.

And the Blitz and trench (WWI) experiences in the Imperial War Museum are very striking -- if you're not claustrophobic.

Finally, I love the London Walks and think they would entertain even teenagers.

Mimar,

Thanks for your input and for reading.

I hope I didn't say the Cabinet War Rooms were a re-creation... I know they were the real thing. Parts were restored to look as they did according to our tour. Perhaps I stated this wrong in my report.

gruezi

travelgirl,

There was a time I swore I'd never watch another Holocaust movie - just couldn't take it. Then a Jewish friend said, &quot;But you have to watch that one (Schindler's List) because it shows a very hopeful point of view - what one man did to save so many...&quot;

Soooo.... I watched it once. And then my husband convinced me to watch it again... and then I watched it with my daughter.... Yes, it's sad, but my friend was right - it's also very inspiring.

gruezi

One of the best post I have ever read on Fodors. So informative and at the same time with so much revelation of your family who made the trip that makes it so human and real.

My adult daughter and I visited Dachau and I think it was one of the places she remembered most in all our travel. We did get to the Eagles nest.

Also the Anne Frank Museum and The Dutch Resistance Museum in Amsterdam
are places we will never forget.
There is a bridge(Arnum?) in Holland or Belgium that I cannot remember the exact name,but a movie was made concerning the stand the brave solders made there. very impressive.

One of the places I regret most not going when my daughter and I spent 3 weeks in France was not going to Normandy. Why we did not go I can't imagine. I was History minor in college and all of this interest me so much.

I have not gone to Berlin yet,but it is a place on my list.

Yes, you are fortunate to live in Europe. Just my favorite places to visit are there.

Thanks for taking this time and effort to share.

I agree, this is an excellent post. Gruezi, I am so glad that you continued writing. The only problem with great posts like yours is that it just adds to the list of places I want to visit, lol! Seriously, thank you for sharing. BTW, DD and I watched Schindler's List and I agree, it is inspiring, although tough to watch too.

gruezi.
Thank you for your report,I was born in UK I was 8yrs old when Britain entered the war &amp; can remember the day vividly. as we lived in an indusrial area &amp; our house was acroos the street from a munitions factory,my brother &amp; I were evacuated to the counteyside in 1941 when the water &amp; gas mains had been bombed , I was lucky to have a wonderful family to take care of me &amp; still keep in touch with the family. I have visited Normandy Berlin &amp; Buchenwald I could not understand why the people &quot;allowing&quot; this to happen , but on reading the reason given to the people as to why Buchenwald was started ( this was the first camp)I realised they were only told what the authorities wanted then to beleive &amp; if anyone objected they were'not heard of again. I think you were very brave gruezi, to take your girls to see what intolerance &amp; race hatred led to &amp; think it should be part of our education system, I had heard that in Germany high school students are taken on field trips to the camps. I have also visited Ypres in Belgium were my farther was gassed &amp; died at the age of 55 from the effects.
Jean.

gruezi,
Oh, yes, sorry my post wasn't clear. I have been to Berlin and visited many of the sites you and your girls did, but not the Pergamon Museum.

I did visit the Wannsee villa, but not Dachau. We went to Sachsenhausen and Ravensbruck. Both were chilling. Visiting concentration camps is not pleasant, but important, I think.

I think your daughter is choosing an interesting, challenging and important field of study. She sounds like an amazing young woman.

Oh, and sometimes McDonald's is the only choice. :)

gruezi:

Regarding your comments about Schindler's List....here are some little known facts which I have been privy to...Steven optioned the book 12 years before he made the flick in 1993.

In my conversations with him about it, he truly felt he wasn't ready to do the movie at that point ..and he was having great successes with most of the films he had done by that time. His epiphany came when he actually visited Auschwitz. Treblinka and Majdanek, escorted by Branko Lustig, an Auschwitz survivor and eventually the noted producer of the film. By the end of 1992, he was confidently ready to take it on...the rest is history.

Visiting Poland while he was &quot;shooting&quot; in and near Krakow, I had the distinct privilege of watching the filming of some of the more salient scenes..especially the destruction of the Krakow ghetto, punctuated by the little girl in the red coat.

My wife and I, later that day while driving to Warsaw for the 50th anniversary commemoration of the Warsaw ghetto 1943 uprising, could hardly speak to one another...except in most somber tones.

Note: In honor of Branko Lustig, I gave his first name to the most colorful and memorable character in two of my recent novels.
stu t.

stu t - as always, you add so much to this board. What an interesting story. By the way, I've been meaning to tell you that I recently went looking around the house for your book (The Wayfarer's) and couldn't find it. I mentioned it at dinner and my 15 year old son said, &quot;oh, yeah, I think I have that in my room, I read it last year&quot;. He's a voracious reader and is always going through the house looking for something to read. He said to tell you the book was &quot;very good&quot;, &quot;an interesting story&quot; and that you are &quot;cool.&quot; :)

jean - so sorry for the young loss of your father and the terrible toll on his health that chlorine gas must have taken.

TG2:


so nice to hear from you on the above post...I'm sure OP Gruezi won't mind if I respond..briefly.

A sincere thank you to your 15-year old DS (I remember him from your grand 11 week odyysey)..I think you and the DH, DS1 and DS2 are all &quot;cool&quot;...! (we're off to Russia next week...also Belarus and Ukraine...third visit, first snce USSR days). I tried to respond to your old email address...returned.

Best wishes to the &quot;cool&quot; family..

stu tower

Hi everyone who stopped by to read and share. Thanks for all your beautiful thoughts.

I hope to respond to each of them later in the week. I started a new job and my Fodor's time is diminishing!

I did want to post my last bit on this.

gruezi

<b>Final Thoughts</b>

In the past weeks, working on this written record, and supporting my daughter as she writes her own essay on the journey, we both continue to process this experience.

For me, it was a time to combine my love of travel with an historical theme and to really broaden my very limited knowledge. I am more aware of the dynamics of recent European history and the beginnings of the Cold War. With the recent actions taken by Russia, it’s helpful to have a better understanding of this history. Beyond the educational aspect, it was a special time my daughters and I shared together. We had some fun times, some sad times, and lots of time for reflection.

My older daughter is just now completing all those college applications and as a result of this trip she has decided to study not only History but also Peace and Justice. She struggled with the hopelessness of so much war – particularly rough was the day we spent at the Caen Peace Museum - and has been inspired to work for peace. For her, the German Resistance Museum in Berlin was the most compelling thing we saw, especially the story of the White Rose Resistance and the Scholl siblings.

Somewhere here, I think I mentioned that she re-read “The Diary of Anne Frank” after we returned home from Germany. She said she found it very soothing, and still is inspired by Anne’s faith that there is a lot of good in the world.

If you’re still here, thanks for hanging in there and sharing our travels with us.

gruezi

Gruezi, thanks for taking time to tell of us of your awesome travels.

Your Dachau visit was sensitively done. What sticks in my mind of the day I visited Dachau is the silence. It was summer and there were many visitors that day, but I did not hear one voice raised to a speaking tone. An occasional whisper and the soft sounds of footsteps. I think we were all overwhelmed at what we were seeing.

gruezi,

I am glad you finished this great report. And it is inspiring that your daughter came away from and wants to study Peace and Justice.

I remember when I visited Dachau, when I entered the room with the ovens I was so overwhelmed by emotion. I actualy broke down and started to cry.

As for the Bic Macs being smaller in Europe, I don't know, they seem to be shrinking in size her in Seattle.

Tom

Hi Irish - Yes, it was a solemn place. Like a funeral but even worse.


Tom - It was the painting in the orthodox church with the gates of Dachau being opened by Christ that really got me crying. I don't know why, as I'm not religious (although I was raised as a Catholic and do appreciate the Christ figure in that sense). It was just such a beautiful, hopeful painting I guess. Plus, I think the connection the artist made between the Dachau gates and the gates of Heaven was really touching.

Thanks for sharing.

gruezi

mms and lucy,

You are both so nice to stick with this long, long story. Sounds like we could all have a great talk over our travels!

maryanne,

Thanks for sharing your travels and for your very kind words. Now you have 2 more places you must see - Normandy and Berlin. Very different but both amazing.

Hi stu,

Thanks for all the great info on SL. I feel like you were on our trip this summer. Thanks for reading and for all your great input.

Jean,

Thank you for your heartfelt post. In the Imperial war museum we learned a lot about &quot;the children's war.&quot; What really struck me was that there were children who were not recognized by their parents when they returned as they were so grown up. We really had a hard time grasping the thought of this kind of separation. How hard for both you, the child, as well as your parents. Yet necessary too! I am sorry for the loss of your father in such a tragic way and at such a young age for both of you. I will share your post with my girls. Thank you.

gruezi

Just wanted to thank you for this well written and fascinating post. I am glad came across it once it was finished :-) so I didn't have to wait each next installment!

I have two young boys, so in addition to the fascinating historical and travel perspective, I was grateful for the chance to spend some time experiencing life as the mother of teenage girls.

This trip is everything that I believe travel should be.

congratulations

Canada,

What a very nice post from you!

Thank you for your very sweet thoughts and for reading all this.

My teenaged girls love little boys (the wilder the better) since they don't have a brother...I have 5 brothers so I feel very blessed to have these 2 very girly girls. We are very close and I have to say I'm probably odd but I actually am enjoying the teenager years.

My older daughter texted me from a class trip to Paris today and said, &quot;Mom, I'm only ever going to Paris again with you - it's not the same otherwise.&quot; Boy, that sure made my day! I better save that text;)

BTW, lots of boys love the trip to Normandy and the Imperial War Museum in London. Perhaps when yours are around 10 or so would be a good time to go. I found that a great age for family travels.

Thanks again!

gruezi

We are going to France in June (hopefully - the trip has previously been postponed so my fingers are crossed). We have Vimy Ridge in as a for certain (I have a secret daydream of my boys growing up to be guides at Vimy :-), and are determining on the feasiblity of Normandy. We visited the War Museum in Ottawa this past summer, which was excellent and they enjoyed, but I am trying to reconcile the &quot;tanks and guns are cool&quot; perspective of a 7 and 10 year old boy with &quot;people do terrible things to other people in wars&quot; message (over simplification duly noted).

I remember visiting Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam when I was about 10, and not really understanding what I was experiencing, but found that having the physical memory of the place as I matured.

We are considering visiting Oradour-sur-Glane when we are in France (The village was destroyed by the SS - everyone men,women,children - and has been left untouched as a memorial) I am torn between whether it would be too much for them, or too over their heads (though maybe forming that same physical memory I have of Anne Frank's house)

And I had originally negotiated with my kids and they agreed that they would never be teenagers ;-), but after your experience, maybe I will just embrace my fate...

Topping for flygirl...

Canada, just noticed your post... hope you are continuing your plans for travel with your boys. Keep us posted.

gruezi

Hi Gruezi,
What a fabulous trip report! I've been spending more &quot;computer time&quot; on the lounge, because of the election and I was giving my son a wedding, but the travel forum is my true love. I enjoyed reading every word of it. You gave me some wonderful travel suggestions, because although I wouldn't identify myself as a history buff, I guess I am. I have taken my (adult) kids to Europe because thats where my parents were from, and they both were concentration camp survivors, and I wanted my kids and myself to know where our roots are. Not just the horrific WWII stuff, but the happier family life before.
We had an interesting encounter this summer in Krakow. We were there with my sister so she could see Auschwitz, my dads so to speak (alma mater). We were having dinner in the Jewish quarter which is where Schindler's factory is located, and by the way, being replaced by a nightclub???, I think! There were about 30 high school students in our dining room, and a few were dancing to the Klezmer music we had come to hear.
Now, you just don't slow dance to Klezmer, you do the Hora. Group dancing in a circle. My table decided we needed to teach these kids how to dance, and long story short, we spent an incredible evening with these kids and their teachers. None are Jewish. They are seniors at a public school in England, and their history teacher has taken his classes on a Jewish history tour of Europe for the last 10 years. They start in Spain (the Inquisition) and end at Auschwitz, which pretty much finished off Jewish life (as it was) in Europe. They stop in Germany, an Austria, France &amp; Italy. Given that most kids don't have you as a parent this is the opportunity of a lifetime. It was truly an example of why we love to travel. The people you meet!

Dear zwho,

Thanks for reading my report and for leaving such a nice note.

I love your story about dancing the Hora in Krakow. We've not been there, but I do hope to get there before we leave Europe.

How amazing that both your parents survived concentration camps.

I hope your son's wedding was wonderful, and I wish many happy travels to you and your family!

gruezi

I am thinking about planning a "WWII trip" and came upon this wonderful report. Just what I was looking for.

Thank you, gruezi, for taking the time to write about your trip. I'd like to just following in your footsteps!

Excellent!

Am so glad this came up again. We didn't get out of Paris so missed MSM (pls. see my Provence sandwich TR if you wish). Here's hoping for another opportunity.

I do know what you mean about not appreciating history in school and how traveling makes vivid what was so dry in school. My DH loves history and remembers everything (in addition to ball players and coaches over the years) so going to Italy and France with him was great. "Who was caesar here? Who was the dictator here?" were answered on the spot.

Here's to many more trips and much success to your DD.

Celianne,

So glad you found the report helpful. Please let me know if I can help in any way and do let us know what you decide to do. I also posted a thread on Fodor's on books, movies to read/watch before this trip. I got so many wonderful suggestions and we did watch a lot of movies....


Dear TDudette,

So nice to hear from you. We still talk about the trip and my daughter is now at college in the US studying Political Science and Peace and Justice Studies. In Jan. she spent 10 days in Lebanon as she has a particular interest in the Middle East. It was a tough trip for a young American girl, but she is really learning about what it means to be an American in the world today. Her plan at this point is to take the Foreign Service exam before graduation and see if she can do some sort of diplomacy work.

She and I will meet in Istanbul for spring break to continue our travels together.

gruezi

gruezi, Thank you. I just ordered Sopie's Choice and the Battle of Britain!

Celiaanne,

If you plan to visit Normandy than I highly recommend Band of Brothers as well...

gruezi

Hi Gruezi,

I know your trip was a long time ago, but if you want a couple of stories about the children's experience in the UK, both my parents lived through the war.

Dad: he was evacuated from London to Wales for a couple of years. His main memory was of having to learn to run very fast as the local children resented the evacuees and would chase them home from school. If you got caught, you got a thorough beating! It's not a happy memory for him overall and he doesn't really like to talk about it. One the positive side it triggered a love of the countryside that has stayed with him.

Mum: she stayed in London with her parents and two sisters. Her father (too old to serve) told them that if the Germans landed, he would kill them all with the kitchen knife so the Germans wouldn't get their hands on them. And she thinks he was serious too. They sheltered down the tube during the blitz and it has left her terribly claustrophobic. She will not go in lifts (elevators), into basements/tunnels of any kind, or on airplanes. Anywhere she feels confined is out - especially if underground/dark - and she has panic attacks if it can't be avoided.

The context of your DD's experiences will certainly be in her favor in the foreign service. Can't wait to hear about Istanbul.

Hi Nona - I often wondered if I could have let my children go and stayed behind. I'm sure I would have, but how sad to miss their childhood. When we visited the Imperial War Museum there was a whole section on the children. Many were unrecognizable by their families on their return. Thanks for sharing your parents' stories.

Dear TD - I think her living in Switzerland and doing so much travel during that time, plus her international school experience, really shaped her career interests. She has always loved history, but felt it wasn't exactly what she wanted to major in as she didn't want to teach. It is so nice to see her finding her way and formulating some goals for her future. Also, she was quite lucky to go to a school that offers a lot of opportunities in that area. I'm looking forward to our time in Istanbul not only because she's a great travel companion, but also because I love hearing all her experiences with her studies and various organizations (Amnesty Intl. is one)...

gruezi