bren,
Crime is much worse in Europe than the statistics would indicate. In the US we actually measure crime somewhat. Ive spent many years in Europe and have seen so much crime unreported. In Eastern Europe you dont even call the police because they will steal what left.

Frank,
If you had one bit of a clue of how much property costs in coastal towns in Southern Spain, I doubt that you would say that.

Most comments are pure nonsense.

America or Europe are neither paradise nor a hell hole, respectively. Both offer a huge variety of places to live.
If you are not able to understand that Europe is more than Paris, London, or Florence, and that the States is more than Manhattan, L.A., or Florida, I will start to worry seriously about the level of education on both sides of the Atlantic.

Frank, the citizens must know of the increasingly dangerous crime waves in certain cities. Is there no outrage? Governments are suppose to protect its people first. Many Scandanvian girls are terrified to go out at night for fear of assault.

I think I understand the value of SPanish Real Estate a touch better than most. I bought my Nerja property in the early 80's and sold in 2005

Sorry, Cowboy
Im way above your class

"Wouldn't this be a more interesting debate if it was 'WHO would you move to the US'?"

- We sent Rupert Murdoch.

This past weekend I took a flight from X American coastal city to Y American opposite coastal city, stopping in Z non-coastal is-this-a-city? Yes, I'm a cheapie. Yikes. I wouldn't move to the Z place for all the tea in China. And I'm American!

Probably wouldn't move to Europe either but Australia is sounding better and better after reading this thread. Based on my limited knowledge (Priscilla Queen of the Desert and Strictly Ballroom and Muriel's Wedding), I worry that the population might be a bit coarse. Then again I'm from California.

I haven't anything of value to offer to another country and am as poor as a church mouse.

Please advise.

I'm glad my parents moved to the US (from Ireland) before I was born, but I'd probably be equally happy to have grown up in Ireland if they hadn't. As someone else said, neither side of the Atlantic is heaven and neither is hell.

About the whole crime issue -- I'd wager crime statistics across the western world are fairly even when you compare similar economic and social strata across societies. The likelihood that a well-off professional will be the victim of violent crime in London is probably the same as that of a well-off professional in San Francisco. A drug dealer in Brooklyn will probably end up suffering the same fate as a drug dealer in Marseilles -- the only difference being that the Brooklyn dealer will likely end up being shot, whereas the dealer in Marseilles may end up strangled or stabbed or having his throat cut. The end result is the same.

Saying you wouldn't move to the US because of gun laws is a silly reason, IMO, but it is your choice. I can think of a hundred more valid reasons to want to stay in Europe, or vice versa.

I did. I was a "non-resident alien". I came home after two years because I wanted to alienate myself from insularity. As a tourist I do enjoy the US National Parks, Disneyland and sundays in New York.

Wow, how did this thread survive without me!? ;)

I just wanted to say before everyone starts bashing me once again that I was a little to unreasonable in my previous posts. Although I agree with just about everything I said I don't think a discussion like that is meant to be on a travel talk forum. So if I offended anyone I apologize. I will not get all riled up anymore and act like a right wing radical, even though I may feel like that sometimes.

I think fodor's should just do away with threads like these. Atleast in forums like this. The lounge would be a more appropriate place. People who are just getting on to learn about a country they may be visiting or are interested in visiting shouldn't have to be objected to derogatory remarks about their country. That is how I get all fired up to begin with. So I apologize and please don't get me going again. I drive myself crazy sometimes.

"Based on my limited knowledge (Priscilla Queen of the Desert and Strictly Ballroom and Muriel's Wedding), I worry that the population might be a bit coarse."

- Leely2, I'm sure I don't have to tell you that movies are a far cry from reality. I'd think America was more than a bit coarse if I'd only ever seen "Deliverance" and (take your pick). Australian filmmakers are mostly arty wankers who wouldn't know a real working-class person or country town dweller if they fell over them. As a result they deal in dumb stereotypes. It makes them feel better about themselves as they ponce about their usual inner-city cafe absorbing double macchiatos. Or macchiati.

If you moved to any major city in Australia you'd find the lifestyle and cultural life - with due allowance for population and wealth - not too unlike the SF Bay area, Sydney especially, but with better weather.

My advice, visit for a couple of weeks. Moving countries is a big decision. If you like what you see, start thinking about how you might meet the Australian points-based immigration system. Me, I like the idea of having more American immigrants.

Neil, you are too kind. I was just being silly. I should have probably included a ;) . However, the few posts on this thread I have read from Australians make it sound like a very agreeable place to live and I did think to myself &quot;Screw Europe <b>and</b> the US; I want to live in Australia!&quot;

Thank you for taking the time to answer in such a reasonable way. I surely don't deserve it. :D

Leely, I guess I was mostly worried that someone might think jmainly wanted to make sure nobody thought that those movies with their grotesque caricatures had anything much to do with real life.

I can see the drawbacks that would keep some people from wanting to move to the US. I can also see how a lot of misinformation has driven some opinions of the US. I can see the flip side too - real and not so real but perceived reasons why someone wouldn't want to move to anyplace in Europe.

But I'm not one of those people. We'd like to live in the EU for a few years. We both have citizenship in an EU country, so there wouldn't be too much red tape. It would be nice to experience something different for more than a couple weeks at a time, travel nearby, that sort of thing. Not permanently though - we too would like to settle down in Australia in the end, back my wife's hometown (which I like a lot too)

Having just visited Europe, I was glad to return. These are some of the things I like about the US, that Europe just doesn't have:

1. Grocery stores that have almost everything from every country you can think of. My local grocery store has French cheeses and breads, chocolates from Switzerland and produce from many tropical countries. I can buy Kimje from Korea, Indian spices, Chinese noodles, Italian pastas, etc... My grocery store is probably large enough to swallow a whole block in downtown London. Food is never scarce and variety is endless. When I was in Europe, we had problems with various things running out of stock, like orange juice, milk, essentials like that. It was mainly because the markets weren't large enough. In America, that is unheard of.

2. Space. In Europe, you get into cramped buses and trains and tend to think that is normal. Your sidewalks are narrow and crowded and your cars are small. I was always uncomfortably cramped while in Europe. Give me space and give me freedom! For instance, I like to jog with my I-pod, but found it impossible to do in Europe. The streets were too crowded for me to be able to jog at an orderly pace. There are no &quot;breakdown lanes&quot; on highways so if you are biking there is a chance you can get hit by a car. Here in Texas, we have nice wide breakdown lanes where Lance Armstrong was able to train for all his Tour de France wins. I call the breakdown lanes here in Austin the &quot;dedicated biker lane&quot;.

3. Freedom. Yes, we have freedoms here you don't have in Europe. I can walk into any restaurant or gas station at any time and use the restroom/WC for free with no questions asked. There are water fountains everywhere, and it is free. Water is always free in restaurants unless you specifically request bottled water. Public places like malls or airports have plenty of water fountains so you never go thirsty. No need to waste 2.5E everytime you need to quench your thirst.

4. Comfort. Yes our climate may be harsh in some parts of the country, but as was pointed out, Europe gets its share of harsh weather as well: snow/blizzards, deluges/flooding, heatwaves, etc... The main difference, though, is that we have great heating and air conditioning systems here that always keep us in comfort while indoors. I've been to Minneapolis in the winter and some buildings were so warm I could wear short sleeved shirts inside of them even though it was -40 outside. They even have an indoor shopping mall (Mall of America) with an indoor amusement park that is climate controlled, and there are heated garages as well.

I've been to Phoenix in the summer and our air conditioning systems handled the heat fine. Yes, we may have a harsh climate but we have the systems to cope with anything that mother nature brings.

5. Cost of living. Things are just too expensive in Europe. Today I got peaches for $0.44/lb. I think it was 3E/lb ($4.5/lb) for the same in Europe. Our gas is still ridiculously cheap compared to what Europeans are paying. Bottom line is America is a place where you can live a nice life at a cheap price.

&lt;&lt;less to the private golf/pool and tennis club. I drop the kids off at the club for golf lessons, then they have lunch and off to tennis. I pick them up after work. Ballet, Soccer and Gym on the other days of the week. After that its off to a 5000 sg ft house w/no guns or crime. What would that cost in Europe?

I wouldn't care how much that would cost anywhere b/c that sounds totally unappealing to me.

Different strokes...

Same here.
When I hear about the lives of some middle-class American children, it makes me feel exhausted.
When do they have time to mooch around, read books or just hang about with their friends?

&lt;&lt;Yes, we may have a harsh climate but we have the systems to cope with anything that mother nature brings.&gt;&gt;

And how well, for example, did those systems cope with Hurricane Katrina? Some residents of New Orleans might have a somewhat negative view.

I live in the U.S. and love it. We have our pluses and minuses but it is a great country and a great place to be.

However, given an opportunity that may enable me to afford it, I would love to relocate to Europe for a year or more. I have been to Europe over a dozen times. Almost all the countries I have been to, have their pluses and minuses. However, I think they also are great places to be.

Also, while I am at, given an opportunity that enables me to afford it (this for you, NeilOz), I would also love to relocate to Australia or New Zealand for a year or more. I have never been there but have close relatives in Australia and couple very good friends in New Zealand. So I know those two places also have their pluses and minuses. However, overall, like the U.S. and much of Europe, I think they also are great places to be.

There are several other countries I could mention but let's skip them.

What boring conclusion! So sorry to be so out of fashion on this thread! But, if you ask me, I really couldn't care less. And you shouldn't, either.

It's a shame that some people just look at their way of life as the monetary value of what they do.

Luckily, all of us appear to want different things in our lives.

&lt;&lt; we have the systems to cope with anything that mother nature brings.&gt;&gt;

eek.
Now there's a fate-tempting hubris-y kind of a statement.