Would a travel planning agency make sense? And should I participate?
 

As we all know, there are far more people reading this forum than posting on it. One of those silent readers is the owner of a travel-related business whose (happy) customer I've often been (I've also recommended it on Fodor's more than once), so we've established kind of a loose electronic pen friendship over the years. A few days ago, he's been asking me a question that has since puzzled me.
He wrote (I'm summarizing): what you and your fellow Fodorites are doing on that board is a great service to all travelers, experienced or not. But there's a certain point where I think this service has its limitations (so he writes - I'm still summarizing): if and when people actually need their trip planned from A to Z; not just what a travel agency would do for them, but research on sightseeing for example (be it because they have no clue at all, or because they are, on the contrary, so knowledgeable that they wish to see the really hidden sights where access is often more than difficult), booking those visits, sorting out where to spend how much time and what to do in which order, booking restaurants and so on. That is, not just single questions on all those matters (he wrote), but actually the entire travel planning. At this point, it's a matter of good luck whether the right Fodorites are around at that time: those who can answer so many questions, and who are at the same time willing to. More often than not (this was his impression, I'm still summarizing), people asking such questions get only part of what they'd need because everyone backs out before their trip is settled.
To cut a long story short, his idea is to set up a travel planning agency; one that would not offer cheap flights or hotels or whatever standard travel agencies do, but that would PLAN trips for individual travelers in Italy: help them figure out how much time to assign to which city or town or sight, make a timeframe for their holiday day by day based on their individual interests and preferences and their own individual pace ("no one-size-fits-all approach, please", he writes, with five exclamation marks) - and strictly based on the advisors' PERSONAL experience, so perhaps just one hotel or restaurant recommendation per town or area, but a good one. Without wanting to do the business of normal travel agencies, he said, this agency could nonetheless also make certain reservations if the travelers don't speak Italian themselves: like for those really difficult visits (good example: the zillions of world-class sights in Rome that are unaccessible unless you manage to find the one person with the keys and persuade this person to open for you - which may, as I, franco, can confirm from my own experience, take several days for a single monument), or for restaurants, or anything for which it's necessary or wise to speak Italian.
And to cut this long story totally short, even though he said it would be essential to have really knowledgeable advisors at such an agency, he asked me to participate.

At this point I'm asking you, dear Fodorites, for your advice. On the one hand, I think it could be an interesting idea. On the other hand... no wait, even two other hands! (Now you see why I need your help: at the very least, I need those three hands reduced to two again!) First other hand: is it true that something beyond Fodor's and similar forums is necessary? (Not thinking of normal travel agencies here; all my experiences with them have been so horrible that there's no doubt for me that something beyond them is indispensable!) Second other hand: even if it's maybe a brilliant idea, should I be part of it, although I love trying to help people here on Fodor's (I'm not always around, but I always come back), and although I've already recommended the prospective travel planning agent's primary business here? If I do, how would I separate free help on Fodor's from my participation in that agency? "I give you a free description of the restaurant I'm recommending, and if you find out which one I'm thinking of, good for you; but if you want me to tell you the name, you have to come to our agency and pay me ten bucks for it." ??? Just kidding...

TAs make money booking group trips and hotels - if you don't do that I think the profit would be miniscule and you do it as a hobby and not a profession - or you sell things traditional travel agents do as well - car rentals, train passes and tickets, etc and also do the rest, for a fee.

Hi F,

Of course he should.

There is zilch capital outlay.

There are many people who prefer to spend money to have someone else plan their trips (for whatever reason).

Good luck to him.

Does he need a European consultant?

((I))

Your post was a little too long, sorry, I read part of it, but if the gist is that some people need more help than Fodors becasue they are clueless and can't read books, etc., and someone might not answer some specific question on Fodors at the right time -- sure, I can agree with that.

There are agencies like that around, expensive ones with really knowledgeable people who do the soups-to-nuts planning, etc. Some peole with money pay for them because they don't want to spend the time doing this stuff.

Are you asking if I think this is going to be profitable and a good business plan and should you quit your day job? no, but what's your investment here? If you have no other job and nothing else to do, it would be worth a risk to participate. If you are being asked to invest, I wouldn't do it.

You don't know this business, read up on it, just read about the top-end agencies that do this kind of stuff, in Conde Nast Traveler, for example (they have a listing of these kind of agencies about once a year).

The problem is finding enough clientele willing to pay you for this stuff, that's all. There are definitely some people who need it, but most aren't willing to pay for it. And how would you get clients? If you both have nothing else to do and don't need to invest a lot of capital in this business and think you know how to get clients, and have nothign else to do, why not give it a try. THe concept isn't enough, you need to have a business plan and how do you expect to get clients and are you going to have a real office or do this all by phone/internet from your bedroom or what?

How do you prove to people that they should pay you for your supposed expertise?

paragraphs <i>would</i> help . . .

But what I can figure out of your post, you are asking about for-pay travel planning services-right?

I already do that. Besides posting here on Fodors and giving travel talks-- I also have 'clients' who pay me to plan trips to the UK for them. I don't book anything. I work out a reasonable itinerary, give them suggestions of places to stay along their route, sightseeing, special events, passes and memberships, etc. They then go off and book (or not) on their own.

It is more an avocation than a 'job' and is really just an offshoot of my speaking programs. I don't even promote this --folks (and friends of folks) who come to my talks contact me. Only a tiny % of folks need this sort of help -- but for some it is apparently quite valuable.

There are plenty of us here who already do that - charge people to establish itineraries for them and book things for them. Not on a commission basis, like a TA, but almost as a kind of personal travel consultant. If you head over to www.slowtravel.com, you'll see who's doing what. You'd have an advantage being in-country and so knowledgable, but just so you know, I think the majority of folks doing this are doing it for Italy.

Franco, an interesting concept, sort of “We can open doors for you that would otherwise be closed”, a travel consultancy rather than a travel agent. You’ve certainly got the knowledge to do it, the trick being to get past the market that is based on 3/3/3 Venice/Florence/Rome standard travel plans. Plans like that are a dime a dozen, but maybe travellers with very specific needs might provide a market.

OK, a little hypothetical test, a project.
“Next time we go to Venice, we want to hire a small boat for a Sunday’s exploration. Can you put us in touch with someone in Venice that would hire us their boat? There are commercial operators who will hire boats, but we’d like to hire one from an individual owner. We’d prefer that it was in Castello, San Pietro.”

How would you go about setting this up? How would you go about charging for your service? What happens if the boat leaks like a sieve or the engine is hopeless? Are you offering advice on a no-liability basis?

I’d be prepared to pay 50 or 100 euro to someone who could set up the boat hire, plus the hire costs, but would this be commercially attractive for Franco. If it could be set up with a couple of phone calls, than it could work.

Second hypothetical:
“I like Carlo Scarpa’s architecture, and I’ve seen a bit of it in Venice. The entry to the school of architecture, the foundation whose name I can’t remember but it’s near S Maria Formosa, also Moretti’s showroom and the work Scarpa did in the Academia. But I want to get inside the Olivetti showroom in the Piazza and have a look around. Franco, can you unlock that door for me?” I’d pay say 10 euro to get inside and have a look around.

So there are a couple of hypothetical requests, although next trip to Venice I do want to hire a boat, and I do want to get into the Olivetti showroom. I think there is a market for that kind of service, but maybe it needs to be provided by someone who is on the ground. Certainly the guide books and travel forums provide information about the big ticket attractions that everyone knows about, but I think that a service that opens those otherwise-locked doors might find a market.

If you go into it on the basis of interest rather than needing the income; I think it might be something worth considering.

The market would be small - you already know that.

I would see your service as something like a private tour guide. Except that you wouldn't accompany them. Or perhaps you may choose to do so occasionally. Someone who knows the local area & ways of getting things done, as you do. The example of negotiating with the right person to get keys to a site is exactly what I mean.

Once you hang your shingle up though, you'll have to work out how to cherry pick the clients you want.

There's a wide chasm between giving helpful advice on-line and doing the odd favour for Fodorites and/or friends, and being at the beck & call of people who feel their $ entitles them to exclusive & inexhaustible access to you and 4 million supplementary changes of mind.

The thriving small group/special interest/individually guided tour market indicates that there certainly is a market for the type of service your TA friend has in mind.

If you're willing to stick your toe in the water, perhaps start with one or two of your friend's well known clients.
Ideally, you might become a word-of-mouth referral amongst like minded travellers & not need to advertise.

It's not necessarily a matter of catering only to either those on limitless budgets; or the totally clueless. I'm not in either category, and would be happy to pay a mutually agreeable fee for access to something I particularly want to do/go to or have, but don't have the knowledge/contacts/Italian to do myself.

You won't need me to tell you that you'll need a strict "no liability" contract to protect you from the disconnect between some people's perception & expectations and reality.

As a favour to a good friend who is a TA at the pointy end, I arranged access for one of his clients & wife to another friend's sheep & cattle property adjoining Lake Eyre (Australia). It was not very convenient as my friends were shearing, but the client especially wanted to see it, so they put a 3 day programme together to show him outback life on a station - and a flight over Lake Eyre.

Shearing, cattle mustering in helicopter, horse riding if he wanted, fly around Lake Eyre. Friend's daughter needed to do some business in Adelaide, so would fly down in their Beechcraft King Air, stay overnight fly back with the clients next day & return them on day 4. Detailed itinerary sent to the client and he was thrilled. Remember - this is all a favour to me, and my TA friend.

Met the client in the city & all was going well.

Until they got to the airport. The wife took one look at the King Air& went into melt-down. She wasn't getting into that tiny little thing - tears & hysterics when her husband tried to reason with her. (Tiny little thing?? It's a twin engined craft that carries 7 or 8 passengers for pete's sake!)

So ..after listening to the histrionics & apparently trying unsuccessfully to explain to this stupid woman that outback properties don't have airstrips for 747s - joining the husband in pointing out that all the details had been in the itinerary WHICH HAD SPECIFICALLY BEEN PUT TOGETHER FOR THEM and ENTHUSIASTICALLY APPROVED BY THEM - my friend's daughter got in her plane & flew home. Alone. Had the husband a whit of backbone, he would have told his wife to enjoy 4 days in Adelaide & gone. OTOH, friends' daughter was probably relieved to escape ...

To say my TA friend and I were mortified would be the grossest of understatements. Thankfully my other friends are of philosophical & forgiving mien and our friendship remains intact.

Wonder what would have happened, had there been a charge for the excursion/planning? Would the clients have wanted a refund?

I've also sent & taken some wonderful people to friends & family properties and some lifelong friendships have resulted.

Just a quick note to tell you that you're all great (and I knew it!). Lots and lots of great advice. Give me some time to pass it on to the person who came up with the idea, and to think about all and everything. And keep that great feedback coming! Thank you!

Franco poses a very interesting question, and Peter elaborates on it in quite an interesting fashion. Let me propose the following as the basis of an ongoing conversation.

1. 50% of the people like being hands-on — reading guide books, researching internet sites, and planning their own foreign independent travel (FIT). For them, research and planning are a huge part of the pleasure of traveling, and this is largely who constitutes the members of this forum.

2. The other 50% of the people are confused by the sheer wealth of information out there, in some cases conflicting information, and would would gladly pay someone $150 to $250 per week of travel for their time and expertise in putting together a customized FIT ... as long as this is a qualified and experienced travel consultant.

3. You all know how many hours it takes to put together a truly great trip, so this is really not an exorbitant amount of compensation.

4. How many truly great travel consultants are there? Suppose for argument's sake that there are 100,000 travel agents in the U.S. Conde Nast offers a list of perhaps 100, about 0.1% of the total, and vouches to their expertise in various destinations. This 0.1% can charge a premium for their trip planning services; they are in high demand partyly because of their listing by Conde Nast.

5. Assume that 3% of travel agents are truly excellent, 14% are very good, 66% are average, 14% are poor, and 3% are terrible (bell curve of the standard deviations). This means there may be 3,000 *truly excellent* travel agents in the US.

6. The average travel agent (the middle 66%) sitting behind a desk in the travel agency in the strip mall probably may add some value to your trip, but will not have the knowledge, expertise, or connections of the top 3%.

7. How to identify the top 3%? Or, more to the point, how to tell if your travel consultant has expertise for your destination? Ask them questions such as those that Peter asks... or, perhaps, just ask them to talk about their experience with the destination, and follow up with probing questions - what to see, what to avoid, where to stay, where to eat, do they know good tour guides, etc. You'll very quickly learn how much they know and how deep their knowledge is.

8. Christina raises the concept of a profitable business model for a travel consultant. Capital expenses are low. You're really paying for someone's time and expertise, just as if you visited a lawyer or a CPA. If this is your profession and how you make your living, it's totally appropriate to charge for your service. This isn't "gouging" a client. This is providing a service based on the investment of your time and experience.

9. Beyond this, travel agents get commissions from the hotels they book for you, typically 10% (if the hotel bothers to pay). It doesn't affect the rate you pay. At luxury hotels, connected travel agents can get you upgrades, free breakfasts, and other perks and bring added value to the table for you, usually at the Best Available Rate and sometimes for less.

You can make money planning people's trips only if 1) it's all luxury and you're given commission by the facilities - or - the travelers pay for your time (budget and many moderate properties don;t pay commission). Only you know 1)what your time is worth (I bill to my clients at $350 per hour for something I'm very good at and can do quickly) and how long it will take you to do the necessary research (assuming you don't have all this ever-changing knowledge in your head.)

Either way - fewer hours at a high rate or a lot of hours at a lower rate - this is going to be expensive for travelers. And there are already a significant number of upscale and expert travel agents who supply these services to those who want and can pay for them.

I don;t see any way to do this at a cost that an average traveler would be willing or able to pay.

I used to have a fantastic travle agent at AmEx show had traveled very extensively in europe (where I was going) and used the AmEx buying power to get us deals. She's been out of business for at least 15 years - when more and more supplier stopped paying commission - and she could book for me only places above out budget.

The last time I spoke to her she told me she had to get a real job since she was getting divorced and needed a job with a living wage - versus a hobby that paid for her clothes allowance.

I think that a service of this nature is for the informed traveller, someone who has a good idea of what they want to see, and where they want to go. It would not be too attractive for the “We’ve got ten days in Italy and want to see the main sights” kind of person – but then, Franco’s not that kind of person either.

It sounds as though Franco is suggesting the role of “fixer”, and people are willing to pay for things to be “fixed”. It’s a bit like the role of the concierge in a large hotel. Want tickets to the ice hockey – he’ll fix them for you, at a price. The thing is, if you’ve already committed a heap of money to take a trip, then it’s worth spending a little more to see or experience things that you otherwise might miss out on. I’m not saying that there’s a living to be made from it, though.

Want an introduction to some person or place – Franco may be able to make it happen.

There’s a woman in Venice who performs this kind of service, and she also writes a great Venetian blog. It is often most critical of Venice, Venetians, and Venetian services like vaporettos that don’t run because of fog.

I’ve never met her or used her services, and I’m not advertising for her. But this gives an idea of services that a visitor might want. http://www.yourownvenice.com/services.html

It’s just a thought, and if Franco can’t hire that boat that we need, then I’ll give her a try.

I think most of us charge about $50 an hour, and a typical week's trip would cost the client about $500 - IF making bookings were included (I also charge for direct costs). It's fun. Not a career, for sure (I have one of those already), but a nice diversion and a way to make the best use of knowledge I have about certain areas that few others do.

It isn't anything like a travel agent really. Travel agents are expert (maybe) on booking cars/cruises/hotels/flights. They seldom have personal/on-the-ground knowledge about a specific area or why one route makes sense and another doesn't. They also don't have info about every little town/B&B/road issues.

A travel consultant would be more like the 'local experts' on Trip Adviser -but on steroids. They would know (or know how to find out) about everything in-country. Me for example - I've been in every county in England/Scotland/wales and most in NI. I lived in the UK for 5 years, go back all the time, read two UK newspapers almost every day and try to keep up on changes/new developments.

I'd be willing to bet I have more 'local knowledge' than any TA (even one in England). (There are some others who post on Fodors who are just as knowledgeable - or more so. )

I purposely decided to NOT do the actual hotel/B&B bookings but rather give a 2 or 3 recommendations in each stopover town so my 'clients' are reassured that I'm not getting hidden commissions/kick backs.

My rates are very flexible -- depending on the length of trip, complexity, special needs. The weirdest thing is-- probably 20% of my clients pay me <i>more</i> than I ask-- but then I'm worth it :D

All of you have raised very valid points; a big thank you once more to all of you, and special thanks to Bokhara, Christina and Peter. Let me start with those few specific answers that I can readily give, without much need of reflecting.
Christina, time or quitting a day job are no issues here. The other person has two businesses from which he's already making a living, none of them seems to be time-consuming at all. I'm retired and have more time than I'd know what to do with. So in this respect, I think we both meet the requirements.
Peter, as for your two specific questions... I personally know two or three Venetians who have their private boat (for one of them, I'm not quite sure whether his boat isn't too large for navigating the lagoon, that's why I'm writing "two or three"), and I've done a boat trip like the one you're envisioning myself with one of them, so that trip wouldn't probably be a problem. (And yes, one of them even lives in Castello, but not the one I went to the lagoon with - he's based on Mazzorbo island, which is by the way much handier to the more interesting parts of the lagoon.)
As far as the Olivetti store, until recently 10 $ wouldn't have been sufficient to see it... rather 100,000 or more. It didn't exist any longer, or to put it more precisely: it did, but the Scarpa design was hidden behind the totally banal design of a souvenir shop, so in order to see it, it would have been necessary to buy the shop and restore it. However, the Fondo Ambiente Italiano (a foundation for the preservation of nature and monuments) has done right that for you, and the Olivetti store is to be reopened within the next few weeks, as a museum. So on your next visit to Venice, you'll be able to see it without my or anybody's help :)
StCirq (and janisj), what's still mysterious for me is how to separate helpful postings on Fodor's from that planning activity; for example, StCirq, do you remember the thread about your sister's visit to Venice? Would what I posted there already be "trip planning"? And if I participate in that agency, wouldn't I have to stop posting things like that on Fodor's?

For everything else, I'll need, as I said above, some more time. Thank you again!

Franco, the Olivetti showroom is something to look forward to. Thanks for that information.

A boat from Mazzorbo - that would work, as I'd love to explore the northern lagoon a little.

"<i>And if I participate in that agency, wouldn't I have to stop posting things like that on Fodor's?</i>"

I wouldn't think so. For one thing, your potential clients aren't the same demographic as us Fodors junkies. If they were on Fodors and asking for trip planning advice -- they are independent folks who don't need no posh 'travel consultant'.

And two -- even though some of us think Fodors is THE most useful site on the web -- probably 90% of regular 'folk' have never been on here (and likely don't even know it exists)

Now - I'm a small fish in this travel planning business. But posting on Fodors has never seemed any sort of conflict. I never mention my side work except in the very few threads that have asked questions similar to yours(It comes up a couple of times a year)

As long as you don't advertise your 'business' or troll for clients on Fodors you should be fine

Hi Franco,

I'm surprised you didn't realize how many such freelance travel planners are already in existence, a great many of them already posting on this board.

To cut to the chase: If you want to do something valuable with your travel knoweldge, write up guides to Venice you can sell on Kindle, or in conjunction with a well-known travel publisher. You've got the talent. I wouldn't waste your time on nervous, clueless tourists. I'd try to talk to people looking for what you've got.

Otherwise, think the real problem with your friend's enthusiasm is that the temptation to turn into a formulaic travel shepherd must be near overwhelming. Over on the Slow Travel message boards, posters are allowed to be much more open about advertising themselves as travel consultants for hire, but you can also see it here. If the hobbyist-turn-travel consultants ever were imaginative about travel, it seems to have evaporated along the way. It's pretty oxymoronic to "plan" a travel adventure anyway, and it's a fair guess that anybody who would bother to pay somebody else to pick their hotels and block out their time for them probably wants something safe and generic to begin with.

I do know people in Paris who give kooky and fascinating travel advice, and help people book lodgings, restaurants and hard-to-access places that really only an insider would know about. But people's desire to get into 'secret' Paris is a heck of lot stronger than people's desire to get into 'secret' Italy. People seem to be looking for some way to hack down Italy to some kind of efficient bus tour of famous sights without taking a bus. You can probably tempt people with advice for a "secret Venice" and likewise Rome for sophisticates, but I think the people who want a deeply artistic or historic insight into Italy, and who would want help with that, probably look for universities and private guides -- or are scouring Kindle.

hope that helps.

ps, Franco:

After reading a lot of travel boards and living in Italy, I think there is a strong need for a travel consultant for Italy who would advise people with mobility problems what kind of an Italian itinerary they can accomplish. Were I starting a travel consultancy, I would include that. I think many aging people would pay for that sooner than they would getting help to better appreciate the historic and artistic patrimony of Italy.