Winter in Europe
 

Hi all,
My sister and I are planning a trip to Europe this December/January. Yes we know it will be freezing but we are wanting the winter experience. I have listed our itinerary below and would love any suggestions. What places are we spending too much time in, what places have we missed that are must-sees. Any advice for the places we are visiting would be great!
Thank you in advance!

-4 nights in Paris
-2 nights in Geneva
-1 night in Berne
-1 night in Zermatt (for the Matterhorn)
-3 nights in Interlaken
-2 nights in Zurich
-1 night in Oberammergau (in Bavaria)
-2 nights in Munich
-2 nights in Mannheim (staying with friends)
-1 night in Frankfurt
-2 nights in Prague
-2 nights in Berlin
-3 nights in Hamburg (staying with friends)
-2 nights in Copenhagen
-2 nights in Stockholm
-3 nights in Oslo (staying with friends)
-3 nights in Tromso
-3 nights in Kiruna (including one at the Ice Hotel)
-1 night in Umea
-1 night in Vaasa
-3 nights in Helsinki
-5 nights in London

Oh my, this will end poorly. I imagine you know that.

In the winter, between shorter days, colder weather, and a general malaise - you move slower. I am never a fan of 1 night stops. So I personally would get rid of those. And I would cut my destinations in half.

I would remove Frankfurt, Berlin ( just too big for the time), either Copenhagen or Stockholm, Zurich ( unless you are wealthy). I think you will find this too ambitious.

Or I would pick either the Nordics or the rest of it.

If you are under 25 and bursting with energy, this could be fine. Even then, I would carve off a bit.

Be prepared now to be disparaged (" forced March, travel with a goal to notch your travel belt, if this is Tuesday" etc). I may consider this to be a good time to leave Fodors if you heart is set on this trip.

A rather stupid itinerary energetic or not. 21 moves in two months makes no sense.

Hi hilary0993,

I think it's a great idea to spend time in Europe in the winter -- you can see some glorious sights and have wonderful experiences!

I do think that you are trying to do too much in far too little time. Spending one night in a place gives you only two half-days there, and that's hardly enough time to see one or two sights -- you'll spend most of your time in transport or in hotel lobbies.

Also, your time in Switzerland doesn't make sense, as you are moving from south to north to south to center. You ought to have a more linear route, like Geneva - Zermatt - Interlaken (day trip to Bern) - Zürich. I'll add that you may not get to see the Matterhorn -- that will depend on the weather and how cloudy it is. The longer you stay there, the better the chances for clear weather. The place gets a lot of snow, and of course, snow means . .. clouds.

Have fun as you plan!

s

Can't speak for the other places, but absolutely no good reason for Frankfurt on this trip. Add a night to Prague or Berlin.

Thanks for the replies so far. Just some additional notes.. This is my first time planning a trip completely by myself so I wanted some input from experienced travellers. I have put a substantial amount of thought into this and while I appreciate your comments please try and remain constructive rather than hurtful. I will be 21 and my sister will be 18 at the time of travel. We are very energetic... I've done bus tours around Europe before and most of the places we stayed were only one or two night stops.

The main reason we wanted to stay a night in Frankfurt was to see the Christmas market. We were tossing up between this one and the Christmas market in Dresden, any thoughts on this? The one night stops in Umea and Vaasa are in transit, and Oberammergau is such a small town that we feel as though one night would be enough. Thanks for your suggestions for Switzerland @swandav2000, I'll look a bit more into this route.

Of Geneva, Berne, Zermatt, Interlaken and Zurich, which one would you suggest I cut if necessary? @JulieCallahan I did notice that accommodation in Zurich is particularly expensive, would you say that there's anything spectacular we'd be missing out on by not staying in Zurich?

OK..when my kids traveled as 21 year old they moved fast. Most of the people on this board are like me - way, way past our 20s.
(crabby tends to go hand in hand with old).

Zurich is a lovely city (Europe is filled with lovely cities), but given the expense, I would cut it. The Interlaken area is wonderful - and likely more fun given your age.

Hilary: there is a HUGE difference between a group tour and doing it on your own. On a tour they take care of everything . . . Luggage, transfers, all transportation, most sightseeing, many meals. This trip - you will have to arrange EVERYTHING. Good for trying to put a plan together. But this is really not going to work. It is winter, there will be delays, there will be cancellations. Remember - 2 nights in a city nets you barely one full day, 3 nights = 2 days, etc.

Every time you move you lose between half a day and a full day just hotel to hotel or hostel. I would cut several places off your list and add nights to many of the ones you keep.

I agree that I have to cull a few places, I've cut out Frankfurt already due to the suggestions, meaning I now have three nights in Prague. If I had a maximum of nine nights in Switzerland, how would you recommend I divide them up over Geneva, Berne, Zermatt, Interlaken and Zurich. If I had to pick one of Stockholm and Copenhagen which one do you recommend I go for? Thanks :)

I would keep Stockholm and Copenhagen as they are quite different cities. I'd probably cut out Helsinki or at least reduce the number of nights. How are you getting from Umea to Vaasa?
As for the weather, short days, last winter was very mild. Snowy cold countries can be very cosy in winter, esp the Nordics where cosy is their speciality.

@Odin there is a ferry that goes directly from Umea to Vaasa. Helsinki has a special place in my heart as that was where I nearly went on university exchange. I want to spend at least a few nights there to get a feel of the city and (in a sense) see what I missed out on. Yes, the Nordic countries are what I'm most looking forward to!!

Hi again,

As I mentioned, you can do Bern as a day-trip from Interlaken. Travel time is only about an hour, and you can easily cover the city in a day.

I would prefer to stay in a smaller town rather than in the large, international city of Geneva. I've spent a lot of time in Montreux, and either there or Vevey should work for you as a base. You can see Chillon, explore the old town of Vevey and Montreux, wander through the vineyards (there might be snow), and visit Gstaad, Gruyeres, Chateau d'Oex, and Yvoire.

I would also say that you don't need to spend time at both Zermatt and Interlaken -- either one will give you that mountain town and majestic peaks that most folks want to see in Switzerland. Seeing both in a short time may be too much of a mountain thing. Zermatt is car-free, so that's a huge plus, but it is super commercial and super packed with crowds and with buldings. Interlaken is also commercialized. If you want to explore the Jungfrau area, you may want to make your base in a smaller town or village like Wengen or Mürren. Either one will have some skiers and the ski instructors will be in the bars in the evenings . . . (may be a draw . . ?). Oh, if you are in the Jungfrau area in mid-January, there is a huge ski race on then, which may be exciting to be part of. It's based in Wengen.

Have fun as you plan!

s

The ferry takes 5 hours from Umea to Vaasa, which is why I asked about it. I like Helsinki but might struggle to fill 3 nights. If I was going to do a ferry route, it would be Stockholm to Helsinki.

For Switzerland you could consider staying in Montreux and do both Geneva and Zermatt from there - as well as Guyeres and Sion and several other places if you had time. I thought Geneva was very boring (compared to Bern, Lucerne and even Zurich) but if you want to see it a partial day trip would be enough. And if you based in Montreux and did Zermatt as a day trip then you could go or not based on the weather. Yes it's a 2 and a half hour each way train trip (but great scenery) but given that you probably have less than a 50% chance of seeing the Matterhorn due to clouds, it would be a complete waste of time to spend a night in Zermatt. If you based three or four days in Montreux you have lots of options. Each day see what the weather is forecast for and if it's good go to Zermatt, otherwise go to Geneva or Sion or Greyers, etc. Same advice for the Bernese Oberland area - base in Interlaken and on a 'good weather' day go up into the mountains, otherwise go to Bern or Thun, etc.

No one in Europe would take such a tour, and your itinerary would not work.
First, you forget the weather. Yes, we have weather in Europe and you should expect snowfall, fog, even rain. The magnificent Alpen peaks are most of the time in clouds and you need to be there a couple of days in order to catch a cloud-free morning.
Second, the time from Christmas to the first weekend in January is super-high season, with three consequences: The prices for accomodation are skyrocketing. Most hotels are fully booked. And most hotels require that you stay at least a full week from Saturday to Saturday.
Before Christmas, you may not encounter snow in the Alps, but slush and rain.
Third, you underestimate travelling times. Especially in winter, when roads are snowy or icy, you may need half a day tor drive 100 miles or so.
The European style of winter vacation is completely different. We would spend at least a full week at one place. During daytime, we would ski or hike (sometimes with snowshoes), in the afternoon, we would warm up in the sauna or steamroom, swim in the hotel pool and sit down in the hotel lounge with a cup of hot chocolate or punch. Then we would have dinner and the apres-ski (usually dancing). To explore a bit, we would do daytrips from our base, depending on weather and road conditions.
Zermatt would be a good (yet expensive) place for such a winter week, Interlaken certainly not (its elevation is too low), but Wengen and Mürren.
Regarding Christmas markets in Germany. Each German town has a Christmas market and they are pretty much all the same. So, it does not matter at all which one you visit. Frankfurt has no particular Christmas market.
Finally, your itinerary would not work because the time is too short at each destination.
If you want to spend two nights, say, in Berlin, you have just one day in Berlin. One night in Oberammergau is completely useless, because you will arrive there in the evening, when everything is closed, and have two hours in the morning after breakfast, then you pack your suitcases, leave the hotel and are on route again to München.
So, plan your trip in a completely different way. It would not work this way.

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have taken them into consideration and have revised my itinerary. I'd love to know what you think about this new version. I understand that we are moving quickly but as I mentioned before we are both young and energetic :) I feel as though I've allowed enough time in each place now, but once again I'd love your opinions!

-4 nights in Paris
-3 nights in Montreaux
-3 nights in Interlaken
-2 nights in Fussen
-2 nights in Oberammergau (in Bavaria)
-2 nights in Munich
-2 nights in Mannheim (staying with friends)
-3 nights in Prague
-3 nights in Berlin
-2 nights in Hamburg (staying with friends)
-2 nights in Copenhagen
-2 nights in Stockholm
-3 nights in Oslo (staying with friends)
-3 nights in Tromso
-3 nights in Kiruna (including one at the Ice Hotel)
-1 night in Umea (keep in mind this is only in transit - not to sightsee)
-1 night in Vaasa (only in transit once again)
-3 nights in Helsinki
-5 nights in London

Thank you!!

Re: Norway/Finland portion..

Can you not go Oslo - Kiruna - Tromsø - Helsinki?

There are cheap flights (Finnair) from Tromsø to Helsinki if you book early enough. That way you don't need to overnight in Umea and Vaasa and gives you 2 extra nights to add to your other places.

this looks much better, Hilary. If JoyC is correct, and you could cut out 2 towns between Oslo and Helsinki, I think the overall plan could work.

Sure you are moving fast - but you are young and can still do that! Enjoy your trip...

I have a question . . . Are you and/or your sister on any sort of budget? If so, you will save an utter fortune if you cut back on the number of places and the ENORMOUS amount of travel. Even if you say 'we'll have a rail pass' - the type of pass you'd need to pull this off would be VERY expensive. I suspect this new itinerary (even though it is a bit better than the original) that you will be spending more on ground transport than on accommodations and food.

You should spend some time reading this post from the Europe board. There is some good, practical advice from experienced travelers here:
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...rstand.cfm?108

You could cut out some travel by basing yourselves in Interlaken and doing Montreaux by train as a day trip.

You can explore Interlaken, Lauterbrunnen, Grindlewald, etc from your home-base.

hilary - I take it you are going by train - in those wintery areas cars can encounter icy roads, etc - but if going by Europe's fantastic rail system to that many places be all means look at the Global Eurailpass that lets you in most of your countries hop any train any time - all the way to Tromso if you want.

Take overnight trains to save daytime travel time and also save on a night in a hotel. For lots of great stuff on planning a European trail trip check these fine sources: www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com.

The pass if over 25 is automatically first class and that IME of decades of European ail travel has definite advantages, especially for folks hauling around often too much luggage - usually a lot more empty seats to put luggage on, etc and bigger seats.

Being young and energetic doesn't mean you have to come up with a bad plan. You say you want 'constructive rather than hurtful' and that's fine. But what happens when you perceive what is in fact constructive as being hurtful? In simple terms without meaning to be 'hurtful', your plan sucks. It's about your PLAN, not about you as a person.

You have no doubt done what most do. Come up with a list of places you think you would like to visit and then divided the time available by the list to arrive at a 'days' per place list. That is the wrong way to go about it. It is the equivalent of trying to stuff an elephant into your suitcase.

Start by deciding how many places you can visit given the amount of time you have available. To do that, you need to consider the practicalities of travel.

First as already mentioned, every time you move you lose at least half if not most of a day. So you must count 1 day for travel between places each time you move. You cannot count it as both a day moving and a day IN a place.

Second, in winter it gets dark as also already mentioned. The sun will have set by 5pm. That means you should figure on being in your destination for the night before then unless you want to be two young women walking dark streets.

I suggest you use a simple formula to begin planning. Start with 4nights/3 full days per place. If you have 60 nights that means you should be looking at around 15 places. You might spend a night less in one or a night more in another but that is a reasonable average. It also limits your moving days to 25% of your total time.

The common desire is to 'see as much as possible'. The problem is that people confuse the word 'much' with the word 'many'. They are not synonymous. The way to see as 'much' as possible is to spend time IN places not Between places. In travel as in mnay things, less is more. The less you move, the more you see/do.

Your latest list is 19 places. Cut it some more.

How are you planning on travelling Oslo-Tromsø? There is no train line north of Bodø (except for the Narvik-Kiruna-Lulea line on Swedish railways). You will spend a lot of time travelling if by rail and bus and Tromsø is out of your way if you are travelling Narvik-Kiruna. There are lots of activities in Tromsø so maybe worth the visit though. Cheapest to fly Oslo-Tromsø and bus Tromsø-Narvik.

Hi all.

@halfapair thanks for that link, I'll check it out. Thanks for the Switzerland suggestion, to be honest though I fear that if we spend more than four nights in one place we'll get bored! If we have six nights in Switzerland I feel as though it's better to split them up evenly (three in Montreaux and three in Interlaken). What are your thoughts?

@janisj we have looked into the Eurail Global Pass, it gives us 15 days (24 full hours each) worth of rail travel. While in Switzerland we may also purchase the Swiss Card.

@PalenQ thanks for your advice on the rail pass, I will make sure to look at these options before we purchase.

@dulciusexasperis I just feel as though people could be a bit more encouraging. No need to make me feel stupid, believe it or not I have actually out a lot of time and effort into this. Of course I agree I would never want to out my sister and myself in danger. I've revised my itinerary and put it below, would definitely love to hear your thoughts.

@dyoll We have booked a direct flight from Oslo to Tromso, because we booked it so early it was extremely cheap.

My current itinerary includes flying direct from Kiruna to Stockholm, staying a few nights there then getting the ferry (as suggested) to Helsinki. I would love your opinions. Thank you all for helping me shape this itinerary, I really appreciate it.


Here is a revised itinerary.
-4 nights in Paris
-3 nights in Montreaux
-3 nights in Interlaken
-2 nights in Fussen
-2 nights in Oberammergau (in Bavaria)
-2 nights in Mannheim (staying with friends)
-4 nights in Prague
-4 nights in Berlin
-3 nights in Hamburg (staying with friends)
-3 nights in Copenhagen
-3 nights in Oslo (staying with friends)
-3 nights in Tromso
-3 nights in Kiruna (including one at the Ice Hotel)
-3 nights in Stockholm
-3 nights in Helsinki
-4 nights in London

<<in winter it gets dark as also already mentioned. The sun will have set by 5pm. That means you should figure on being in your destination for the night before then unless you want to be two young women walking dark streets.>>

In the Nordics, the sun sets much earlier than 5pm during Dec/Jan. It starts setting at about 3pm in Stockholm & probably no or little daylight in Tromso. People walk about these cities after dark, I wouldn't worry about it.

<<Frankfurt has no particular Christmas market.>> I don't believe this is true, I have been to the Christmas market in Frankfurt 3 years ago.

hilary0993 - Travelling abroad is great fun, but can also be exhausting. You will find yourself constantly thinking about language and cultural differences, etc. And this can wear you out. You will want to plan a little "vacation from your vacation" in the middle, if you can. Something relaxing where you can take a breather.

After several trips together, DH and I have instituted some "rules" for our trips.

We try to stay at least 3 nights in one place to keep from feeling like we're rushing from place to place. We like to stay several nights - up to 7 - in one place and use it as a base to see the nearby sights; especially in large cities which have so much to offer.

In Switzerland we stayed in the little town of Lauterbrunnen for 5 nights, got over our jetlag, day-tripped to Montreaux and went up to the Jungfrau, and saw other nearby sights. We were never bored.

Do plenty of research on the places you're going and you won't be bored. Take time to stroll, people watch, window shop, etc.

You are a nice person, Hilary. Fodorites could learn a lot from you.

At your age, I think you can move at this pace. I could not. But most 20 year olds don't need vacations from their vacations. Go for it and have fun. I am impressed you are planning this far in advance!

20 years old - take a strong look at the Global Eurail Youthpass - a 2nd class pass and normally I extol the benefits of first class but for younger folk you can put up with a less relaxed ride and save a ton of money!

Still too much moving for me but it's much better than it was.

When I was in my 20's and backpacked Europe for 2 months I hit about 20 to 25 destinations in a 2 month period. I had done zero research before leaving and my whole travel plan consisted of "land in Amsterdam and see what happens". No itinerary, no pre-booked lodging and no idea of what I was going to do. I had a Eurail ticket that was good for two months of unlimited travel in 17 countries and I put it to good use. It was the best time of my life and looking back I wouldn't change a thing. So in comparison to what I did your itinerary looks very manageable. You'll have a blast, trust me. :)

FMT why don't you start a thread and call it:

Things Old Travellers to Europe Seem Not to Understand

FMT, you traveled the way my 3 kids did at 20. I think they also had a blast.

Now cold, I think you're being facetious.

Julie - I think for myself and most 20 somethings the travel and experiencing as much sensory overload as possible is the best part of the adventure.