Why is Fierenze called Florence?
Jun 15th, 2006, 03:05 PM
#24
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all, particularly the erudite Alec. And I'm so embarrassed that I misspelled Firenze in the title, but once I recognized it, it was too late.
Okay, Firenze comes from fiorentenola? That seems like a leap,too.
I'm from the Southwest where most of the names are misunderstandings--by the Spanish of the Native words, or by the English of the Spanish, etc. Eg. Tucson was something like Took-sawn, a native word. And Arizona itself may be from a Basque word for shady oaks instead of the smart aleck's "arid zone".
Vera
Okay, Firenze comes from fiorentenola? That seems like a leap,too.
I'm from the Southwest where most of the names are misunderstandings--by the Spanish of the Native words, or by the English of the Spanish, etc. Eg. Tucson was something like Took-sawn, a native word. And Arizona itself may be from a Basque word for shady oaks instead of the smart aleck's "arid zone".
Vera
Jun 15th, 2006, 03:21 PM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And speaking of Deutschland/l'Allemagne:
In Italian, you'd say that the residents of Germania, the Tedeschi, speak Tedesco (the word is related to the word "Teutonic"
.
Not to be confused with Tesco, from the Old English word for supermarket.
In Italian, you'd say that the residents of Germania, the Tedeschi, speak Tedesco (the word is related to the word "Teutonic"
.Not to be confused with Tesco, from the Old English word for supermarket.
Jun 15th, 2006, 11:07 PM
#28
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,719
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Okay, Firenze comes from fiorentenola? That seems like a leap,too."
I think you misread Alec's post - the word is fiorentino (or fiorentina in the feminine form).
As I wrote in response to a similar question a couple of years ago, Firenze derives from Fiorenze, which derives originally from Florentia.
From an online dictionary of etymology (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=f&p=8):
"Florence
fem. proper name, from L. Florentia, fem. of Florentius, lit. "blooming," from florens (gen. florentis), prp. of florere "to flower" (see flourish). The c.1700 "Dictionary of the Canting Crew" defines Florence as a slang word for "a Wench that is touz'd and ruffled." This was also the It. city name, which became in O.It. Fiorenze, in modern It. Firenze."
If you are familiar with historical linguistics and the rules of sound change then there's a clear logic to it, as ellenem and Kate have pointed out:
[Latin] flore > [Italian) fiore (flower)
flamma > fiamma (flame)
planta > pianta (plant)
By this logic, we can deduce that English (and Spanish, and French) adopted the name Florentia (or Florence) before the sound change occured in Italian.
I think you misread Alec's post - the word is fiorentino (or fiorentina in the feminine form).
As I wrote in response to a similar question a couple of years ago, Firenze derives from Fiorenze, which derives originally from Florentia.
From an online dictionary of etymology (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=f&p=8):
"Florence
fem. proper name, from L. Florentia, fem. of Florentius, lit. "blooming," from florens (gen. florentis), prp. of florere "to flower" (see flourish). The c.1700 "Dictionary of the Canting Crew" defines Florence as a slang word for "a Wench that is touz'd and ruffled." This was also the It. city name, which became in O.It. Fiorenze, in modern It. Firenze."
If you are familiar with historical linguistics and the rules of sound change then there's a clear logic to it, as ellenem and Kate have pointed out:
[Latin] flore > [Italian) fiore (flower)
flamma > fiamma (flame)
planta > pianta (plant)
By this logic, we can deduce that English (and Spanish, and French) adopted the name Florentia (or Florence) before the sound change occured in Italian.
Jun 16th, 2006, 12:53 AM
#30
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's only since there were regular and frequent contacts between people in different countries, and a need for standardised names, that this has become any sort of issue.
Before railways, few people got to go to any other country people were only speaking to their own countrymen about people and places they would never see, so they used whatever names they had learnt or developed for themselves, not the names that had developed in the places referred to. Well into the 19th century "welsch" was commonly used in German to mean foreigners in general, but mainly Latins and particularly Italians, since there was a huge interest in Italy in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. But in converting from Anglo-Saxon to English the "foreigners" sense came to be applied to the specific group of "foreigners" the Anglo-Saxons had displaced.
The wonder would be if names were always and everywhere consistent.
Before railways, few people got to go to any other country people were only speaking to their own countrymen about people and places they would never see, so they used whatever names they had learnt or developed for themselves, not the names that had developed in the places referred to. Well into the 19th century "welsch" was commonly used in German to mean foreigners in general, but mainly Latins and particularly Italians, since there was a huge interest in Italy in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. But in converting from Anglo-Saxon to English the "foreigners" sense came to be applied to the specific group of "foreigners" the Anglo-Saxons had displaced.
The wonder would be if names were always and everywhere consistent.
Jun 16th, 2006, 06:08 AM
#31
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
logo - King Theodoric the Great was the founder in 493 of the Ostrogothic kingdom of Italy. What did he have to do with Deutschland?
http://linktrim.com/646
Please give your reference (? Wikipedia)URL.
http://linktrim.com/646
Please give your reference (? Wikipedia)URL.
Jun 16th, 2006, 06:32 AM
#32
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a side note to this discussion from the "Ufficio dello Stato Civile":
My grandfather was named Gaetano FIORENTINO (masculine).
His sister was named FLORENTINA (I don't have her middle name).
Kind of strange, but this family also named another relative with the same Italian first and last name!
My grandfather was named Gaetano FIORENTINO (masculine).
His sister was named FLORENTINA (I don't have her middle name).
Kind of strange, but this family also named another relative with the same Italian first and last name!
Jun 16th, 2006, 07:00 AM
#34
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think hanl gave the clearest explanation (as usual) of how Italian pronunciation shifted, resulting in "flore" (flower) becoming "fiore".
For anyone who wants to learn more about these phonetic shifts, I'd recommend a fascinating book called "From Latin to Romance in Sound Charts", by Peter Boyd-Bowman. It charts the systematic changes that occurred in going from Vulgar Latin to modern French, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese.
In the case in question here, "Rule 30" in the book, an initial PL, CL, or FL in Latin generally stayed the same in French, but in Spanish, often changed to LL, in Italian to PI, CI, and FI, respectively, and in Portuguese changed to CH. Some examples:
Latin-Italian-Spanish-Portuguese-French
--------------------
Plenu-pieno-llono-cheio-plein
Plovere-llover-chover-pleuvoir
Pluvia-pioggia-lluvia-chuva-pluie
Clave-chiave-llave-chave-clef
Flamma-fiamma-llama-chama-flamme
The list goes on and on.
Knowledge of these changes often allows you to guess at a word you don't know in one of these languages, and either get it right, or come close enough to be understood.
- Larry
For anyone who wants to learn more about these phonetic shifts, I'd recommend a fascinating book called "From Latin to Romance in Sound Charts", by Peter Boyd-Bowman. It charts the systematic changes that occurred in going from Vulgar Latin to modern French, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese.
In the case in question here, "Rule 30" in the book, an initial PL, CL, or FL in Latin generally stayed the same in French, but in Spanish, often changed to LL, in Italian to PI, CI, and FI, respectively, and in Portuguese changed to CH. Some examples:
Latin-Italian-Spanish-Portuguese-French
--------------------
Plenu-pieno-llono-cheio-plein
Plovere-llover-chover-pleuvoir
Pluvia-pioggia-lluvia-chuva-pluie
Clave-chiave-llave-chave-clef
Flamma-fiamma-llama-chama-flamme
The list goes on and on.
Knowledge of these changes often allows you to guess at a word you don't know in one of these languages, and either get it right, or come close enough to be understood.
- Larry
Jun 16th, 2006, 07:32 AM
#35
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was brought up on half memories of Grimm's(?) Law, which did a similar sort of sound-spelling relationship analysis across the main European languages.
Thus sounds made in similar ways show up as different spellings in different languages (B/P, T/D, and so on), and a circumflex across a letter = a missing "s" that might appear in another language. A V in one language = W in another = GU in another, so
guêpe = vespa = wespe = wasp.
Thus sounds made in similar ways show up as different spellings in different languages (B/P, T/D, and so on), and a circumflex across a letter = a missing "s" that might appear in another language. A V in one language = W in another = GU in another, so
guêpe = vespa = wespe = wasp.
Jun 16th, 2006, 07:37 AM
#36
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Logos, I believe the Polish word for "German" comes from a root meaning "mute." (In Russian, "mute" is "nemoi" and "German" is "nemets."
Jun 16th, 2006, 08:00 AM
#37
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jun 16th, 2006, 08:45 AM
#38
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I looked, translated it into English,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans, and didn't find anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans, and didn't find anything.
Jun 16th, 2006, 10:28 AM
#40
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am so glad I asked this question. Not only learned about Florence/Firenze; flora/fiora but many other fascinating facts as well.
I have always regretted not studying linguistics in college. Find it fascinating.
Thanks again to all the knowledgeable posters!!!
Vera
I have always regretted not studying linguistics in college. Find it fascinating.
Thanks again to all the knowledgeable posters!!!
Vera
