missypie- if you'd like to meet up while you are here or have any specific questions you'd like to ask me...

My email is ep243 at yahoo dot com.

Determined to prove that NYer's are nice and that NYC is a nice place to visit too! ;o)

Paris is wonderful but you have to be careful - once you've been there all you do is long to go back!! I've found that what bothers the French (and Italians for that matter) is when you assume they speak English which most invariably do. My opening line (in French) is "I don't speak french, can you speak english please". I always get a friendly response.

Today's email brought the Fodor's newsletter, with "A Postcard from Paris" about the actress Margo Martindale, who is featured in one of the vignettes in the new film, Paris Je T'aime.

Both Margo's story and that of her character are so relevant to the OP that it would be a shame not to read this:
http://www.fodors.com/wire/archives/002568.cfm

<You mean the ones who come here for the weekend to get drunk and make jerks out of themselves? We call them Californians.>

Author vegaslocal

<You mean the ones who come here during the summer to be demanding and expect us to wait on them hand and foot with a very demeaning "the world revolves around me attitude" and then are bewildered when we are rude to them? We call them tourist.
Author parislocal

Ok on a more serious note. I went to Vegas in April. Spent more money in Vegas then I have ever spent in my many trips to Paris (and only $3.25 was spent on gambling). It is all in how you travel. You can do Paris without the glitz on a comfortable budget.

Todor:
I just need to shed some light on your fascination with Amsterdam and how they don't expect you to speak Dutch...
A movie line said it best "Are there any Dutch people in Amsterdam?"

Amsterdam is a city with an extraordinary amount of foreigners that have relocated and settled there. And English is one of the most universal languages.

Next time you are in Amsterdam. Take a trip out of the city and get to know the real Netherlands. And I don't mean Volendam, Delft, Rotterdam and other tourist traps. But take the train out of the city.

I do find Paris intimidating, and I think it's partly due to its mystique. It's presented as a fashionable, glamorous, snobbish city where you are expected to be turned out and elegant at every moment, and where English speakers will be scorned and purposefully led astray.

Some elements of this stereotype are true at times, but I have to say that the stereotype is not a reflection of reality. Still, I do feel a greater sense of comfort and ease in many cities other than Paris. I can't say why - but that is the case. However, Paris has so many wonderful aspects that I get past this feeling and enjoy it anyway.

I was given two great, simple pieces of advice before I went to Paris for the first time, from an American friend who had lived there:

1. ALWAYS greet people when you enter any type of business - a friendly "Bonjour, Madame" or "Bonjour, Monsieur" is sufficient. My friend told me that Americans appear rude to the French because we walk into stores, don't greet people, start touching things.

2. Study a little French.
Don't put yourself down with "I don't speak French, and even if I pick up a few words, I'm sure my pronunciation will be atrocious." That is so defeatist. I get really impatient with that attitude. Why not learn something new, broaden your horizons? The days of Americans walking around with a phrasebook trying to figure out the pronunciation from phonetic spellings are long gone. Get a language tape, listen and practice. Take a French class. Watch some French movies.

I took my friend's advice. I had never studied French (though i do speak some Spanish). I took two eight-week courses at the Alliance Francais. I also taped and studied the French in Action video series on PBS. I worked at it, but it was great fun and I really got into it. I made friends in French class and we did a whole French thing--movies, dinners, leaving phone messages in French. It was more like play than work. I was so much more confident when I went and it added a whole other dimension to my trip. I could actually speak the language! Not to talk philosophy, but basic get-around survival French. Every little shopping excursion was a challenge and a victory. And people were kind and helpful. I was also able to have social conversations.

As you can see, I'm a big advocate of learning the language of a country before you go. Why be a "dumb tourist" when you don't have to be.

I find this thread fascinating. I can't think of anywhere in the world I would be intimidated- scared, awestruck, happy, sad, all sorts of other emotions, but not intimidated.

And I got to thinking about why that would be- I'm not a supremely confident sort of person, but I guess I'm comfortable in my own skin.

And then I wondered if it could be an "old world-new world" sort of a thing. But (to generalise wildly)you Amurrican chappies (usually/ sometimes/always) seem to think that you are the apogee of western democratic civilisation, so why would one (lots) of you be intimidated by a town in a country many of you (and I don't mean Fodorites) seem to despise?

OK, that last bit was over the top; but I'm really interested- most powerful western nation -v- often beaten, saved by the Yanks not once but twice archaic country.

I'm not trolling, honest. I'm genuinely interested in this psychological phenomenon

Sheila,

The only Americans I knew who were intimidated about going to Paris were those who a) hated or were seriously afraid of flying--and this was a surprisingly important reason--the thought of spending 10 hours in a plane was the main reason they hadn't gone to Europe, might as well have asked them to spend their vacation time and money on root canals b)spoke no foreign languages at all c) spent little time in big cities, period. They would have been almost equally intimidated in NYC. The U.S. is a BIG country and there are people in tiny communities who can be literally hundreds of miles from a sizable city, which is not the case for the vast majority of you depraved Europeans

Most of these people were older (65+) who just didn't have the time, finances (growing up during the Depression) or opportunities to travel much when they were young and naturally more adventurous (excepting, of course, military service in WW II, but dodging German bullets in bombed out French towns or evading kamikaze pilots doesn't exactly encourage thoughts of tourism).

Re learning the language, a fun language program is Earworms (www.earwormslearning.com) Sexy voices practicing phrases to groovy music. My husband downloaded the earworms Rapid French and it's surprisingly catchy. And I usually HATE those language lessons on tape (or CD these days).

< get to know the real Netherlands. And I don't mean Volendam, Delft, Rotterdam and other tourist traps >
author Parisnow

Yes I've met the native Dutch in Scheeveningen,Noordwijk, Leiden,Utrecht, Amersfoort,Zwolle, Nijmegen,Venlo, and by the way, plenty of them in Delft and Rotterdam
I found the Dutch to be open minded about other people's languages, most of them are multilingual. Unlike the French, they don't expect tourists to say anything in Dutch at all.

In my opinion NMSKY2007's advice is right on the spot if vegas wants to enjoy Paris on a personal level, though no matter what she'll still be another dumb tourist to the Parisians

Sheila because so many of us relate Paris with the ultimate sophistication. However we are still more charmed by the British accent

BeachGirl - I loved the post where the saleswoman was speakign English and you were listening in French!! Very funny.

Also, I agree with the poster who said to ask the speaker to slow down if you are trying to understand their French - an easier way to ask this is just to say "plus lentement, s'il vous plait?' (lentement is pronounced 'lontmon' - but I guess you'd know that if you were trying to listen in French!)

Okay - here is my funny French speaking (or not) story. I was traveling with some friends who speak French very well - but they never tire of doing it in a very snobby way (e.g. speaking French to each other when no one else they are with understands it). In any event we were flying on Air France and they were sitting in the exit row and we were sitting right behind them - when the flight attendent approached them to ask (in French) if they understoood their door opening duties should there be an emergency, one of them replied in her best French that "she would be having the salmon"! Seriously!

A humorous story....

happened while I was living in the Netherlands...

a friend of mine from NY had told me he was coming to Paris on business and wanted to know if I wanted to meet him there. Since he had grown up in the Ukraine and I was pretty much flat-ass broke, I asked him if he had ever been to Amsterdam before. He hadn't, so we decided that he would come and visit me in A'dam.

Once in Paris, he called and left his contact with my roommates. I called the number and a man answered...

I asked in french "Good evening, I would like to speak with 'friend's name', please"

Man's answer "Non"

Me, in french, "I'm sorry, is this a hotel?"

Man's answer "Non"

Me still speaking french, "Please, it is difficult for me to speak French. Do you understand English?"

His reply "Non"

Me, speaking in Dutch "I have a problem, can you help, etc, etc"

My roommates were in tears, laughing at me (they were both Dutch), asking me why I was speaking Dutch to a foreigner, a french person at that. "No one speaks Dutch except the Dutch!" they teased me.

I was trying to think in French, and the only words that would come to me were Dutch.

So....the hardest part of speaking another language is doing it over the phone.

And secondly, English is widely spoken in Amsterdam for many reasons...and, the Dutch know that their language is difficult to learn and have a good sense of humor about it. And Amsterdam is 'real' Netherlans too.

French people I have known have been kinder about my French than many American French speakers. I LOVE it when a native-speaker corrects me, though frequently I have to ask for the help. The Americans LOVE to pick on my French without being very helpful, but French friends have been both more forgiving and more encouraging. (Especially the ones who don't speak English so expertly.)

Telephone conversation is wickedly hard. I had a woman stop me on the phone in Mexico City, telling me in English that my Spanish was "terrible." Having recently completed 3 years of Spanish study, this was a blow!

In Paris I was with a group of friends and we needed to reach our Parisian friend at his office. Though one member of our group had once lived in Paris, I was the only one willing to get on the phone. No trouble, once I asked for our friend, I was switched to someone speaking English. What I didn't realize was that after switching out of French I apparently was speaking English with this employee with the same French accent she had. I've never heard the end of it from one of the people in my group. But I still say, be fearless about opening your mouth to speak - you won't learn any other way.

Tomasso - that happens to me too! When I speak with someone on the phone who has an accent I start speaking with the same accent without meaning to! It can be embarrassing! I think there is a name for this but I can't think of what it is. I have found however that I am pretty good at picking up what non-English speakers are tryingto say even when I don't speak their language and this could be related somehow to my being so impressionistic when it comes to accents.

I always claim French is trickier than Spanish or Italian in terms of pronunciation (never mind the finer points of the language). In Paris, merely knowing the name of the street you want will not be much help in a cab if you can't pronounce it correctly for the driver. Better, I've learned, to write the address down.

But then, if I told a New York driver to take me to "65 Columbia" instead of "65th and Columbus", I don't know where I'd end up.

Once in Toronto, my friend and I were stopped by a couple asking where the 'poob' was located? After having them repeat it I told them where they could fine a nice 'pub' for a beer. My friend said she would have had no idea they were speaking English! The Queen's own nonetheless!!

P.S. I agree that French is much trickier - I can usually make myself understood well enough in Spanish or Italian, but I've had French people stare at me like I was speaking Martian when I've perhaps slightly mispronounced one word or used imperfect grammar!

Would you know where these four signposts in France were pointing?

http://tinyurl.com/2jakmy

Todor's probably right about always being "dumb tourists", but from the reaction of the people I spoke French to, I seemed to be perceived as a funny, cute, earnest dumb tourist, possibly even charming. (I was almost 40 at the time), rather than an annoying, clueless dumb tourist. I think there's a big difference. People were really indulgent and went out of their way to help me. I think they "got" how hard I was trying and how much fun I was having.

I'd never had any interest in going to France and I'd associated the language with the snooty kids in high school whom I'd avoided at all costs. I only went to France the first time because I was going to Spain and a friend had an apartment in Paris for the summer and invited me. But I became so enchanted with Paris and the countryside that I've returned many times.

I spent 6 months there studying French. Still there are many words I cannot pronounce at all. I get a blank look. One of them was the name of the street I lived on for 6 months! I'd just laugh and hand the taxi driver a piece of paper with the name on it and tell hiom in French that I couldn't pronounce it. Usually they'd laugh too and give me a little lesson on how to say it, but the next time I'd have the same problem. I've also never been able to pronounce the word for "eggs" and be understood by the crepe makers on the street and I love egg crepes. Same thing, laugh, try, and then point. Tomassocroccante is absolutely right, you have to be fearless--just try it. With good humor, you will probably have a great and possibly wacky experience. Good spirits and humor connect people--unless they're jerks.

Vegaslocal, all I can say is go to Paris, try and talk French, don't take yourself too seriously, keep it lighthearted. Also, if you can, see the movie Paris Je T'aime that tomassocroccante mentioned. The last vignette is charming. It put me back in touch with my inner Margo, an innocent abroad.

nmsky2007 wrote: "I spent 6 months there studying French. Still there are many words I cannot pronounce at all."

For some reason, I cannot for the life of me pronounce "heureuse". I don't know why, my mouth just doesn't seem to be able to form that word. :(