Why do airlines do this to us?
 

After years of travelling on Delta I finally accumulated enough points to take my family of 4 to Italy. Based on a friends recommendation I booked this trip 9 month ahead in order to find Skymiles seats for the itinerary I wanted. After 3 frustrating hours on the phone with Delta, I found 4 seats on the dates I wanted and had them book them for me. I was finally able to use points that I thought were useless - I did not realize that if you book 9 months out you can actually use your points to go somewhere interesting. I will be flying a Delta partner - Air France from LAX to Paris - Paris to Rome and then returning from Florence to Paris, Paris to LAX.

Upon reviewing the tickets this week I realized that going to Rome, I have a 1 hour 25 min layover in Paris which is very tight but doable if we stay on schedule. My luggage should be checked all the way to Rome and if all goes well we should be able to make our connection and our luggage may or may not arrive on time (I've travelled Air France 4 times before and 2 of those times my luggage arrived a day later).

However our return is another story. We are scheduled to fly an Air France codeshare and have only 65 minutes to connect for the Paris - LAX leg. Of course printed on the outside of my ticket is that international flights close 45 minutes before departure. Given heightened security measures these days one can be in a security check point line for an hour - especially when travelling internationally. I just don't see how we can disembark one flight, go through security screening and make the connecting flight in 65 minutes!

When I spoke with Delta about this they indicated to me that the connection time is within the Air France window. But I say it is just too tight - especially given the heightened security measures (or I hope security is heightened in France)! Everything has to run smoothly from our plane taking off on time in Florence, disembarking our plane promptly, passing through security and finding our new gate and re-checking in at the gate. Of course at this point I cannot find Skymiles seats on a later flight and move us to that. Right now I have to hope and pray that all schedules run smoothly. If we miss our connection - according to the Delta rep it is then Air France's problem and they will have to find seats for us on a later flight. At this point I just have to take a deep breath, relax and not stress about what could happen.

My advise to fellow travellers is to ensure that before booking an airline ticket ensure you have a 3 hour layover when travelling internationally - anything less is just too tight. Shame on me for not scrutinizing my tickets before I booked!!

Hi debby,

> At this point I just have to take a deep breath, relax and not stress about what could happen.<

That is excellent advice. I think you ought to take it.

At least the problem is on the return leg, where you can reminisce about your lovely vacation.

Boy, that would make me very nervous. But between now and then, you'll have time to study the other flights and the airports, to make a contingency plan if you miss one of your flights.

This past April, I had a 55 minute layover at CDG arriving at one terminal on an AF flight from Athens connecting to an AF flight to Atlanta in another terminal. Both me and my luggage made it, but just barely. I used the shuttle to get from one terminal to the other. I don't understand why AF books such short layovers.

Do you have to go thru security check at the connecting point? I haven't had to connect within Europe, only within US, and here you go from the arrival gate to the connecting gate, without security checks.

I'm with Ira. Considering that it's the return connection, I'd not get overstressed!

debby- hopefully you will be able to use the transient lounge on your return through Paris and not have to go back through security. Alternatively, can you contact Air France and take an earlier flight out of Florence?
But look at it on the bright side, what other city would you rather be stuck in for an extra day than Paris? I would carry a 1 day supply of clothes from Florence and hope that I missed the Paris connection if I were you....
Relax and Enjoy

DO study the terminal in Paris. I have had way too many cardiac-arrest-inducing connections there - and all of them involved racing down corridors, up stairs, into a shuttle, up more stairs, down more hallways - terrifying, but I always made it. I think AF actually holds the planes until everyone gets there. My connecting planes never left on time, and I assume it was because it just wasn't possible for everyone to get there on time.

Keith - glad you made your connection last year. That makes me feel a little better with our current schedule.

Travelnut - yes you do have to go thru a security checkpoint again if you move from 1 terminal to another (and for that matter - I think you have to go through passport control again - I can't remember).

A few years ago we travelled from Nice to CDG CDG - LAX and as StCirq stated we too had a cardiac arrest inducing connection. We arrived at one terminal 20 minutes before our plane to LAX was scheduled to depart - we were running 40 min late! Instead of taking the shuttle from one terminal to another (as it would take too much time) AF recommended that we take a short cut through the parking lot underneath the airport and MAYBE we could make our connection - we took elevators, we ran downstairs, (I'm sure this short cut no longer exists due to new security post 9-11). We ran up another set of stairs, passport control and through security. Once through security my husband told me to run ahead to the gate as we were also toting carry on luggage and 2 children 8 & 5 years old. I got to the gate just as AF was closing the door. Not far behind me was my husband with 2 crying children but me made it! We were so happy to board the plane as we were ready to go home. Of course that was one of the trips our luggage did not come home the same time we did. It did arrive a day later - delivered courtesy of AF to our home.

KennyL: I have already contacted Delta/AF regarding an earlier flight from Florence - nothing available that day as we are travelling at a busy time.

I am already planning to take an overnight bag as carry on so that in the event we are in Paris overnight, we can enjoy an evening in Paris.

I just know that once we are ready to go home, we just want to get home. We are travelling over Easter and kids need to get back to school, husband back to work and pick up the dog etc. The airline scheduling and timetable is just out of our control and as I mentioned earlier - I should not stress and have a contingency plan (overnight bag).

I guess these days I am feeling a little more stressed/anxious than normal when it comes to travelling abroad. Especially given events in recent years. For some reason I am a little more anxious about this trip - I think it has something to do with the fact that AF cancelled a few flights from CDG to LAX this past Christmas and in Feb so I am overstressing about this trip. I just need to look forward to my trip and not worry about "what if" details.

OK, so I didn't even know that this was not enough time!! You have me thinking about my own situation... I'm booked on a flight on Alitalia from NYC -- Florence by way of Milan... both flights are on Alitalia and I think our layover is about 2 hours.

Is your concern the transfer from Delta to AF? If not, and it is AF to AF, wouldn't that be in the same terminal?

First of all, you will not need to go through customs on the return layover. Secondly, if the whole trip is a single Delta booking then you will already be checked in on the 2nd Delta flight - they will know you are coming the moment you check in to the Rome-Paris flight. So the 45minute window might not be so hard and fast. But I agree with the previous post - you should study the airport map ahead of time and check with Delta to find out the likely distance between gates.

Good luck.

Flights within Italy should be absolutely okay with a 2 hour layover. I'm sure there are a large number flights going from Florence to Milan on any given day.

CDG and AF are another story. AF has 2 flights daily to LAX. The airport is very large - especially if you have to move from one terminal to another. If my memory serves me correctly I think they have 4 terminals in which you must take a shuttle to due to distance.

A good question was brought up though, regarding movement from one terminal to another. If we are flying into and departing from the same terminal, we should be okay in terms of connecting time.

Really I did not mean to alert anyone or have others worry about their trips. I just think for peace of mind I would recommend a 3 hour layover for an international flight - especially if you have to move from one terminal to another and go through security again. This was the case for us in an earlier trip to France. Bascailly one needs to do his homework before booking his ticket.

Anyways, I'm going to contact Delta to find out what terminal we will be arriving in and departing from. We are flying on AF metal for both legs of our trip.

With 9 months lead, what are the odds the flights will not have their times changed before the trip?

Keith

Deb- the other posters ar right, learn the map... strap on your Nike's and you'll be fine! Best of luck :-)

I think there are threads about this, but searching "air and france" will surely bring up about 10,000 threads.

Anyhow, I have a vivid recollection of a close connection at CDG, and they had an Air France rep meet us at the jetwalk, and more or less ran us to the connecting flight, cutting to the fronts of lines, or bypassing lines altogether.

I do not remember when this was, and I suspect that it was before 9-11-2001; by contrast, I remember the departure from CDG in Sep 2002 being very delayed by what seemed to be clumsy screening procedures, largely performed by non-French nationals who seemed to speak very rudimentary French or English.

And not to make you paranoid, but what I remember most about trips through CDG lately (though none since 2002) was that the time from plane coming to a stop on the tarmac, and actually setting foor in the terminal was maddeningly long, with bus riding round and around in circles.

You are getting free travel, and I suspect that air France will take the same steps to get you to your detinations, both coming and going as they would any other paying passenger.

Have a great trip.

Best wishes,

Rex

My only suggestion is to make plans now to arrive home a day later than you were planning. They if anything happens, you at least won't have the stress of the problems with the delayed return. Just think of it as an opportunity for an extra days vacation. You may end up being put up in a very nice hotel, have an extra relaxing evening outside of Paris, or an unexpected stopover in some other connecting city. Think of any of those things as an extra bonus, not a problem. Of course, there is the distinct possibility that then all will go as originally planned -- how boring!!

The social ethicist, Reinhold Niebuhr, left a legacy called "The Serenity Prayer".

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Yikes, now I'm concerned about my 1 hr, 20 minute layover at Gatwick (changing from BA to AA, changing terminals). When booking, I asked and the agent said no problem, it's a legal layover. What do you think my chances are?

"legal layover" means "you can't sue me if you miss it". Are you carry-on? Are you entering the EU for the first time on that leg (so you have to go through customs)? Will the flight be on time? Good luck.

<<entering the EU for the first time on that leg (so you have to go through customs)? >>

The US does this... the EU does not. Clear customs (if they even have any one there to staff it) at your final destination. Same with passport control.

Our flight is Verona--> London--> Dallas--> Lubbock. We'll have "carry-on luggage" but it will be too heavy by BA standards to take on the plane, so it will likely be checked. Do I have to go through security again when going from one terminal to another at Gatwick? I've done that route before but I was in a post-vacation fog and don't remember much from that day!

I've heard a slightly different version of the serenity prayer:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
wisdom to know the difference: and the ability to call the person who screwed it up in the first place an as*hole.!

I earn my "miles" by using my Mastercard, putting all expenses including my son's college tuition on it. The card (Capital One) allows you to use the miles on any airlines on any day at any time. Forget the individual airlines! They give frequent flyers their leftovers!

After I read this I reviewed my own upcoming flight to Prague and I now see that I have about 65 minutes to change planes. I almost started to worry until but then why bother making trouble before it't time? I have to trust that many people each day make these flights, as I have in the past and have been fine. You will too.
Trouble enters through the door that fear has opened. Like you said, "take a deep breath, relax and not stress about what could happen."

I've got FFmiles on USair & I've never been able to use them for Travel to Europe. All the seats fill up at least 11 mo ahead for the summer months & we've never known our schedule that far in advance.
Question: I fly to Milan,where I change planes for Venice - All on
Alitalia. I have 80 min between flights. Should I be concerned? Do I go through customs in Milan or in Venice?

mkdiebold, I'm not sure what you mean by the individual airlines giving their frequent flyers their leftovers. Are you suggesting that United or American would give a Capital One user a free flight, but would deny that same flight to their own FF holder? I don't think so.

Calgirl, from what I understand, Capital One pays for the flight. To the airline, it's a paying customer.

Deb, here's a strategy that you may be able to use. I've been in the position of wanting to change an FF flight and was able to do it by phoning often, even daily, as new FF seats can open up at any time if the passenger load isn't as heavy as expected. Study the flight schedule, and when you phone know the number of the flight(s) that would be acceptable to you. Buona fortuna.

I find that I can often change a frequent flyer ticket at the last minute when changes in the weeks and months in advance were not possible. My theory is that Delta realizes that there is no way they are selling that full fare ticket and lets me change.

The other option (one I have used in the US) is to show up for an earlier flight from Florence and see if they will let you on it. Sometimes it works, but with 4 people it might be rough.

Debby,
You shouldn't sweat it. We're doing the same thing this summer, except taking the train back to Paris. We have a short layover in Paris from LAX to Paris. In speaking with the Air France reservationist, she told me that both the plane from LA to Paris and the plane from Paris to Rome is in terminal 2 at CDG, so you won't have a problem from that end (also, Air France or one of its affiliates leaves for Rome every 2 hours).
Keep in mind that on the way back, unless you're taking the last flight out on Air France that day, they actually have 3 flights per day from Paris to LAX, and they will arrange for you to get on the next flight back. They may even upgrade you if they don't have the room in economy. They're quite good about that.

I've made numerous connections at CDG in under an hour, some requiring sprints or shuttle rides between terminals. I've never missed one, though I did have checked luggage arrive a few hours later on one occasion.

For all the chaos that CDG seems to embrace, it ends up working pretty well in the end. Have a great trip!

I had a bad experience with this. My AF flight out of Rome left late and by the time we got to paris, my flight home had left -- and it was the last flight to NY that day! And I really needed to get home. Just be prepared.

Airlines will book flights within what they consider the legal limit ( 45/55 mins, for international flight) and as another Fordorite stated this means they take no responsibility for a missed flight. Their intent is to book you on a flight of their chosing not yours. I refuse to accept any less than 2 hours between international flights. I believe arrival times for planes reflect the time the flight actually lands;you then have to taxi to the gate which can take what seems like forever, then disembark, and if you are at the back of the plane, it'll can be excruciatingly slow. Then one has to find the correct terminal and gate, and frequently go through security.

Your best bet is to be prepared for the worst.Know what steps to take and acquaint yourself with a plan of the terminals, so you'll know exactly where to go. And remember that the worst thing is not missing your flight. Prepare, relax and enjoy.

Jocelyn, you'll be fine, you have more than enough time. I have gone through Gatwick many times and it's not nearly as big as Heathrow. Just 2 months ago I was there and my first flight was delayed leaving me only 25 minutes to get to my next plane. Both my luggage and I made it. Just remember when you first arrive into Gatwick, do not stand in the long line going through customs, look for the sign for transfers. You will go through security there but it's not bad. Then you will go up an escalator to the main area. From there look for signs to the train to the other termianl. The ride to the other terminal is about 5 minutes and the trains leave very frequently. You will not only make your connection, you will have time to relax and visit the nice shops at Gatwick. Have a great trip.

Most of you people worry way too much about the small stuff. The OP is ticketed, so if anything goes wrong the airline will take care of them. RELAX! As Patrick said sometime back, think of it as a possible extra day of vacation if something goes wrong, and surprisingly boring if you just walk over to the connecting plane and it's still there, waiting for you!
You're on vacation!!! Don't sweat the small stuff!

AAFrequentFlyer, are you back??? Can't wait for the trip report!