When can a couple retire and still travel?
Jun 30th, 2006, 03:06 AM
#82
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Dear Rex,
Talk to me about refusing medical treatment when you are having a kidney stone or gall stone attack. Talk to me about refusing medical treatment as your fever rises in response to an attack of appendicitis or of pneumonia. Talk to me about refusing medical care when your prostate cancer metastasizes into your bones. Trust me, you won't refuse it, and the rest of us will wind up paying for your expenses. As to be willing to die at retirement age, it is funny how our definition of "acceptable quality of life" differs by age and by medical condition. In his endless performances of "My Generation", the Who's Roger Daltrey sang over and over again, "Hope I die before I get old!" Well, now he's old, and he ain't in any hurry to die! I admire the bravery of those who continue to travel eagerly despite physical limitations that I would consider crushing. Get a life, literally!
Talk to me about refusing medical treatment when you are having a kidney stone or gall stone attack. Talk to me about refusing medical treatment as your fever rises in response to an attack of appendicitis or of pneumonia. Talk to me about refusing medical care when your prostate cancer metastasizes into your bones. Trust me, you won't refuse it, and the rest of us will wind up paying for your expenses. As to be willing to die at retirement age, it is funny how our definition of "acceptable quality of life" differs by age and by medical condition. In his endless performances of "My Generation", the Who's Roger Daltrey sang over and over again, "Hope I die before I get old!" Well, now he's old, and he ain't in any hurry to die! I admire the bravery of those who continue to travel eagerly despite physical limitations that I would consider crushing. Get a life, literally!
Jun 30th, 2006, 03:18 AM
#83
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To the person who suggested VRBO: I have seen that site, but I didn't see anything for $700-800 PER MONTH. Yes, maybe that much PER WEEK -- but, as I said, you can get a 2-3* hotel room for that -- with less space, of course, but who needs space if you're out and about all day long.
I still can't quite get over the earlier remark by Guy18 (I think):
"Just want to point out to you that travel can cost next to nothing if you want it to."
Starting out with $100 a night (just to sleep) and adding airfare and food leads me to think that this does not add up to "next to nothing". JMHO
I know that some people do home exchanges and that would be closer to "next to nothing" but if you live in a small town in the Midwest, not too many people want to exchange homes with you!
Sorry for the rambling!
I still can't quite get over the earlier remark by Guy18 (I think):
"Just want to point out to you that travel can cost next to nothing if you want it to."
Starting out with $100 a night (just to sleep) and adding airfare and food leads me to think that this does not add up to "next to nothing". JMHO
I know that some people do home exchanges and that would be closer to "next to nothing" but if you live in a small town in the Midwest, not too many people want to exchange homes with you!
Sorry for the rambling!
Jun 30th, 2006, 03:50 AM
#85
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kristine...
"travelling for next to nothing" sounds like a ridiculious statement on the surface but i suspect that guy's point is that people can be creative and make their own destiny. there are other ways to set yourself up to travel other than adding up what a hotel costs per night and other expenses and then trying to save up enough to cover it.
there was a recent thread here about a guy who travels all around the world and puts amateur videos of himself on his website. he now has company sponsors. to do this, he gave up a good steady job and took some risks. many replies on this thread say "he's lucky". he's not lucky, he just did it whilst most people sit back and dream that they had a million whatevers so they can travel around.
obviously, this is not something everyone would do but the point is that this guy is passionate about travel and he has used a little creativity, took a little risk and built himself a life that revolves around travel. millions of people around the world do this in various ways (most ways not nearly as silly as this guy's way).
finally, i meet people all over the world who are from places very much less advantaged than the US, canada, or europe. they find ways to travel that many much richer americans, europeans, etc only dream about. i recently met a nurse from china that just spent 6 months working/living in germany. just wanted to travel so she found a way and did it. i don't think she sat around dreaming about how many millions she needs before she can travel...would take a very long time on her salary back in china.
"travelling for next to nothing" sounds like a ridiculious statement on the surface but i suspect that guy's point is that people can be creative and make their own destiny. there are other ways to set yourself up to travel other than adding up what a hotel costs per night and other expenses and then trying to save up enough to cover it.
there was a recent thread here about a guy who travels all around the world and puts amateur videos of himself on his website. he now has company sponsors. to do this, he gave up a good steady job and took some risks. many replies on this thread say "he's lucky". he's not lucky, he just did it whilst most people sit back and dream that they had a million whatevers so they can travel around.
obviously, this is not something everyone would do but the point is that this guy is passionate about travel and he has used a little creativity, took a little risk and built himself a life that revolves around travel. millions of people around the world do this in various ways (most ways not nearly as silly as this guy's way).
finally, i meet people all over the world who are from places very much less advantaged than the US, canada, or europe. they find ways to travel that many much richer americans, europeans, etc only dream about. i recently met a nurse from china that just spent 6 months working/living in germany. just wanted to travel so she found a way and did it. i don't think she sat around dreaming about how many millions she needs before she can travel...would take a very long time on her salary back in china.
Jun 30th, 2006, 03:57 AM
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Hard to believe that Rex, who claims to be an MD, is actually saying what he seems to be. Saying no to expensive life prolonging care if you are 88 and have a terminal illness is one thing - BUT - there's a hell of life between when most people retire and 88 or 90 (and probably even some of them feel life is still worth living). I agree with Rex that it's a shame to spend what this society does to keep people alive 2 more months at age 90, but please, "no medical care after retirement" is absurd! You would say no to a mamogram for a 67 year old - who could be diagnosed with breast cancer early enough to only need a lumpectomy and radiation - and then go on to live over 20 more wonderful years (of travel, grandchildren, etc)? Happens all the time. But that mamogram, lumpectomy, and radiation do cost some money so that person does need insurance.
So please, don't anyone even consider Rex's suggestion to forgo ALL medical care after retirement age. (But please do consider it if you are 90 and have a terminal diagnosis - but we are talkig two totally different situations here).
So please, don't anyone even consider Rex's suggestion to forgo ALL medical care after retirement age. (But please do consider it if you are 90 and have a terminal diagnosis - but we are talkig two totally different situations here).
Jun 30th, 2006, 04:06 AM
#87
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You're right, Ackislander, I cannot predict what I will do when faced with "reversible" or "benign" medical conditions that can create true misery.
But in the past 1000 centuries, countless humans did succumb to renal stones; they died from biliary colic, or because of the peritonitis that results from untreated appendicitis - - perhaps far more commonly than from metastatic prostate cancer (a relatively "new" disease of the past two centuries when men started living past 75 years of age). Every human who has ever lived has died. Some knew it was the final stage in human development, and "fought it" sparingly, if at all.
Dying often involves physical suffering, of which pain is a frequent component, and mental anguish - - some of which is brought about the anxiety surrounding the natural question "is this it? am I dying? is there something someone can do?"
My earlier sweeping statements suggest, with way too much confidence and certainty that I will not want medical pain relief or other limited palliative care. I don't know that. But I do feel strongly that I will know when/that an illness is "my time".
I knew that was making provocative, way-out-of-the-mainstream statements with my first post on this thread, and they don't have much to do with travel (in fact, the whole notion of what does it take to retire - - with or without plans to travel - - doesn't have much to do with this Europe travel forum).
But it is a viewpoint that feels appropriate to share here. And it addresses a very real angle of the question first asked by the OP.
<< Do they really need a million dollars in the bank before they can retire? >>
The answer to that question depends a good deal on how much you intend to spend on medical treatments, intended to add a few years to the threescore and ten that you've already lived.
But in the past 1000 centuries, countless humans did succumb to renal stones; they died from biliary colic, or because of the peritonitis that results from untreated appendicitis - - perhaps far more commonly than from metastatic prostate cancer (a relatively "new" disease of the past two centuries when men started living past 75 years of age). Every human who has ever lived has died. Some knew it was the final stage in human development, and "fought it" sparingly, if at all.
Dying often involves physical suffering, of which pain is a frequent component, and mental anguish - - some of which is brought about the anxiety surrounding the natural question "is this it? am I dying? is there something someone can do?"
My earlier sweeping statements suggest, with way too much confidence and certainty that I will not want medical pain relief or other limited palliative care. I don't know that. But I do feel strongly that I will know when/that an illness is "my time".
I knew that was making provocative, way-out-of-the-mainstream statements with my first post on this thread, and they don't have much to do with travel (in fact, the whole notion of what does it take to retire - - with or without plans to travel - - doesn't have much to do with this Europe travel forum).
But it is a viewpoint that feels appropriate to share here. And it addresses a very real angle of the question first asked by the OP.
<< Do they really need a million dollars in the bank before they can retire? >>
The answer to that question depends a good deal on how much you intend to spend on medical treatments, intended to add a few years to the threescore and ten that you've already lived.
Jun 30th, 2006, 04:08 AM
#88
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Not to put words into Rex's mouth but I took what he said to mean this, for example:
You're feeling a pain in your back. You go to the doctor who diagnoses cancer. You might be saved with a major operation & many courses of chemo but the odds aren't great. You decide to forego the treatment & opt to be kept as comfortable as possible until the end.
The older I get the more I tend to agree with this. Don't know what I'd do if actually faced with it but it's certainly more appealing now than it was 10-20 years ago. I understand his point completely & have friends who have opted for the same choices.
You're feeling a pain in your back. You go to the doctor who diagnoses cancer. You might be saved with a major operation & many courses of chemo but the odds aren't great. You decide to forego the treatment & opt to be kept as comfortable as possible until the end.
The older I get the more I tend to agree with this. Don't know what I'd do if actually faced with it but it's certainly more appealing now than it was 10-20 years ago. I understand his point completely & have friends who have opted for the same choices.
Jun 30th, 2006, 04:37 AM
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Kristinelaine-Walkinaround explains my point beautifully. I met a woman in England who was probably around 70, and she was traveling around the countryside in an old van and staying in campgrounds for 10 or 20 dollars a night. That's just one example. You can sleep in barns in Switzerland (not as primitive as it may sound--you're not actually sleeping on straw) for around that price. And if we take this discussion away from Europe to Latin America, the possibilities are endless. There is a rainforest retreat in Costa Rica called Cascada Verde where you can have a private room for $10 a night. You'll be surrounded by monkeys and tree sloths, eat organically grown food, swim in springs, hike to the beach, etc. So while airfare is not cheap, once you get to your destination, yes, it can cost next to nothing.
Jun 30th, 2006, 05:12 AM
#93
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I think this thread emphasizes that retirement isn't a different life, in any truly significant way. It is best seen as meaning only a different type of financing for the life one was living before.
Nobody magically becomes a different person on the day they retire. If they weren't the type of person to know how to sleep on straw before they retired, they won't be afterward, even if the related saving of money allows them to sleep on straw in Switzerland as opposed to somewhere in North America. If one didn't know how to run a business before, one isn't likely to do so post-retirement. It is possible, but not likely. In any case, living more or less permanently abroad, especially if one is going to run organic farms, etc., isn't the same thing as travelling, when one is truly living as a transient. The costs and other considerations are as different as apples and oranges.
If people didn't make time or money to do this activity or that while they were working, they're very unlikely to take it up once retired. Time is a subjective thing, and so is money, and so, for that matter, is a 'trip.' For someone like my 85 year old and now very frail mother, a 'trip' of significance involves going somewhere 400 km from home by car, not 4000 by air. For others, in even more physically constrained circumstances, it could mean a trip to the library.
So nothing really distinguishes this kind of question from any other kind of travel affordability question. If one hasn't resolved basic questions like "what category of accomodation do I need to travel" by the second or third trip abroad, one is unlikely to ever do so.
Nobody magically becomes a different person on the day they retire. If they weren't the type of person to know how to sleep on straw before they retired, they won't be afterward, even if the related saving of money allows them to sleep on straw in Switzerland as opposed to somewhere in North America. If one didn't know how to run a business before, one isn't likely to do so post-retirement. It is possible, but not likely. In any case, living more or less permanently abroad, especially if one is going to run organic farms, etc., isn't the same thing as travelling, when one is truly living as a transient. The costs and other considerations are as different as apples and oranges.
If people didn't make time or money to do this activity or that while they were working, they're very unlikely to take it up once retired. Time is a subjective thing, and so is money, and so, for that matter, is a 'trip.' For someone like my 85 year old and now very frail mother, a 'trip' of significance involves going somewhere 400 km from home by car, not 4000 by air. For others, in even more physically constrained circumstances, it could mean a trip to the library.
So nothing really distinguishes this kind of question from any other kind of travel affordability question. If one hasn't resolved basic questions like "what category of accomodation do I need to travel" by the second or third trip abroad, one is unlikely to ever do so.
Jun 30th, 2006, 05:53 AM
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Walkinaround -- In fairness to myself, I probably should mention that my husband and I lived for a year in Bratislava, Slovakia. We did this "cheaply" by me teaching English in a bilingual high school run by the Lutheran Church. Also my husband took a sabbatical and leave of absence from his teaching position at a college -- this gave us half of his salary for the year. (It could perhaps be argued that giving up half a year's salary was a big expense.) My work was basically volunteer. We rented out our house to cover all expenses here.
I was hoping to get over my travel addiction by doing this, but, sadly, that was not the result! LOL Unfortunately, due partly to new laws in Slovakia, we are not going to be able to do this again. (long story)
So perhaps one could say that I was creative, imaginative and all those other words. I'm still not sure about sleeping in a barn in Switzerland, altho I might even consider that since we have always considered it way too expensive to go there. Have seen the Alps in both France (Chamonix) and to some extent in Austria and Slovakia (the Tatras are considered Alpine. I'm not exactly sure why).
I was hoping to get over my travel addiction by doing this, but, sadly, that was not the result! LOL Unfortunately, due partly to new laws in Slovakia, we are not going to be able to do this again. (long story)
So perhaps one could say that I was creative, imaginative and all those other words. I'm still not sure about sleeping in a barn in Switzerland, altho I might even consider that since we have always considered it way too expensive to go there. Have seen the Alps in both France (Chamonix) and to some extent in Austria and Slovakia (the Tatras are considered Alpine. I'm not exactly sure why).
Jun 30th, 2006, 07:00 AM
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I want to answer Kristinelaine on finding inexpensive rentals in Europe.
I suggest you read travel books and if a description of a particularly lovely place strikes you, go and check out that municipality's web page. With luck, they will have an English version and they will list rental companies, some of whom will have their web pages with English language version. Of course, you can find more if you are multilingual, but English would usually do. Check my sothern Spain 7-9 month a year current European retirement home: Almunecar. This city has a web page with lots of info and lots of rental companies. Now, if you don't believe me, that I can live in a prime location in a wonderful climate for next to nothing for most of the year, check out my rental company www. tropysol.com. They have an English version of their website (and German and French in addition to Spanish) and there you can find their properties and prices. There are prices for summer if you like heat, crowds and overpaying, and there are prices for fall, winter and spring, much, much lower, where the weather is better for socializing outdoors (all those tapas bars aren't there for nothing, and cafes with a wonderful choice of icecreams; and you still get sardines grilled on the open fire on the beach at beach restaurants, just those third best, which do not have to close for low season), sightseeing and where you are also only one hour away from skiing, so you can swim in the Mediterranean and ski on the same day, if you are so inclined.... Now, I realize, that after I have given you this info, I'll probably have to spend next winter somewhere else, Cyprus, may be, or Malta, but why not? There are new friends to be made everywhere.
I suggest you read travel books and if a description of a particularly lovely place strikes you, go and check out that municipality's web page. With luck, they will have an English version and they will list rental companies, some of whom will have their web pages with English language version. Of course, you can find more if you are multilingual, but English would usually do. Check my sothern Spain 7-9 month a year current European retirement home: Almunecar. This city has a web page with lots of info and lots of rental companies. Now, if you don't believe me, that I can live in a prime location in a wonderful climate for next to nothing for most of the year, check out my rental company www. tropysol.com. They have an English version of their website (and German and French in addition to Spanish) and there you can find their properties and prices. There are prices for summer if you like heat, crowds and overpaying, and there are prices for fall, winter and spring, much, much lower, where the weather is better for socializing outdoors (all those tapas bars aren't there for nothing, and cafes with a wonderful choice of icecreams; and you still get sardines grilled on the open fire on the beach at beach restaurants, just those third best, which do not have to close for low season), sightseeing and where you are also only one hour away from skiing, so you can swim in the Mediterranean and ski on the same day, if you are so inclined.... Now, I realize, that after I have given you this info, I'll probably have to spend next winter somewhere else, Cyprus, may be, or Malta, but why not? There are new friends to be made everywhere.
Jun 30th, 2006, 07:12 AM
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Now, again, about sleeping in barns: it does not really mean sleeping on straw. In Bavaria, when I worked five years ago, I chose an apartment in a prealpine village overlooking a faboulous Sternberg lake... and the apartment was... in a barn building over the barn. The apartment was modern, well equipped, had fabulous views and on weekends I did not have to drive from Munich... though I had to either drive to work in Munich those 30 km or take a speed train - which I usually did, after purchasing coffe and wonderful breakfast bread in a small cafe next to the train station before boarding. The cost os living in a barn: 5 years ago it was about $450 a month. But at that time dollar was stronger than euro.
Jun 30th, 2006, 09:04 AM
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I do agree with Sue that someone who has not traveled extensively before retirement is ill equipped for vagabond retirement living. (I also agree that some knowledge of international business - particularly international entrepreneurship and business on a small scale is useful when planning post-retirement money making ventures. It is a digression, I know, but if we are on the topic, I would advise: play first. Invest no more than you can afford to loose and arrange the business so that if won't bind you: workwise, timewise, resourcewise... unless you are a workoholic even in retirement, or a masochist or both).
I do not agree, however, that living practically all year round abroad is not travelling. To me it is the essence of terirement travel, but, of course, everybody can see it differently. Living practically all year (save for visits to my daughter, who keeps a guest bedroom for me here in the USA, which acrually is also abroad to me, since despite being domiciled here for the last 20+ years of my professional life, I am an EU national - and enjoying practically free health care in any EU country, which allows for more spending on other things) in two different parts of the world, on two different continents allows me to experience two different kinds of "different" even "exotic" every day and it CUTS ON LONGHAUL TRAVEL, which is a concern when you get older, due to a sheer physical strain of it, while allowing - at the same time - to see - on my frequent trips "abroad from my abroad home" (mostly in Europe but also in northern Africa, which is so close: Morocco, Egypt, Tunis) and "in country but further away" trips- a lot more sights in a more relaxed way than I could on a few transatlantic trips. Retirement is the time to TRAVEL DIFFERENTLY, not like the still prevailing European vision of an American turist: " if it is Tuesday, I must be in Belgium". (Those of you who are retired or close to, might even remember the movie.)
I do not agree, however, that living practically all year round abroad is not travelling. To me it is the essence of terirement travel, but, of course, everybody can see it differently. Living practically all year (save for visits to my daughter, who keeps a guest bedroom for me here in the USA, which acrually is also abroad to me, since despite being domiciled here for the last 20+ years of my professional life, I am an EU national - and enjoying practically free health care in any EU country, which allows for more spending on other things) in two different parts of the world, on two different continents allows me to experience two different kinds of "different" even "exotic" every day and it CUTS ON LONGHAUL TRAVEL, which is a concern when you get older, due to a sheer physical strain of it, while allowing - at the same time - to see - on my frequent trips "abroad from my abroad home" (mostly in Europe but also in northern Africa, which is so close: Morocco, Egypt, Tunis) and "in country but further away" trips- a lot more sights in a more relaxed way than I could on a few transatlantic trips. Retirement is the time to TRAVEL DIFFERENTLY, not like the still prevailing European vision of an American turist: " if it is Tuesday, I must be in Belgium". (Those of you who are retired or close to, might even remember the movie.)
