Liz

Alice:<BR><BR>1. Pickpockets target tourists.<BR><BR>2. Tourists, by necessity, carry more cash and creditcards than the average local, and a passport.<BR><BR>3. Losing any of the above while on vacation is MUCH worse than losing them while at home when you have access to other funds, etc.<BR><BR>4. Keeping MOST of your small, but valuable stuff in a tiny pocket UNDER YOUR CLOTHES, lets you relax and enjoy your vacation.<BR><BR>NOW do you get it?

xxx

<BR>&quot;A skilled pickpocket will not delve into your pockets, he will cut off your moneybelt with a razor and without you noticing it.&quot;<BR><BR>Well gee, Alice, even assuming that ever skilled pickpocket can acccomplish just what you mentioned, how about unskilled pickpockets, or pickpockets who are still polishing their skills?<BR><BR>Your logic, such as it is, seems to be that if one cannot defend against skilled pickpockets then why even bother trying to defend against less-skilled pickpockets. <BR><BR>If that's your logic and your choice fine. But I personally feel it's irresponsible--perhaps extremely so--to recommend that people forget about moneybelts.

raisin

it's funny how a simple question can get turned into a fiery debate! <BR><BR>Anyway, I won't delve into that...<BR><BR>Just wondering, what if there is NO hotel safe (i.e. hostels, b&amp;b's)? what would you suggest then? THe answer that comes to mind is a moneybelt, but any other additional/alternate tips would be much appreciated. <BR><BR>p.s. I know most of the posters here seem to be the types who would stay at hotels WITH a safe, but could anyone help a possible backpacker who even more (?) desperately needs to hold on to their valuables? Thanks!

Sue

There was a hair spray ad years ago that ran: 'she conked out, but her hair held up.' Well, this forms the rationale for my choice of what I carry when travelling. Something that will keep 'alert' for me for those times when I've dropped my guard.<BR><BR>A very sad looking lady approached me in Paris asking if I'd seen a shopping bag, which she had just moments before rested on a pillar of the wall that runs along the Seine. This is why I carry a small backpack - you won't be tempted to let go of it, not even for a second. Choose a backpack in which the compartments feature double zippers that can be affixed with twist ties or pin-locks (simple plastic locks opened with a universal key, available where climbing equipment is sold) - they aren't foolproof, of course, but they slow the thief down. Of course the really essential stuff is snug in the 'vault' i.e. my moneybelt. As others have noted, the day's cash is in a more accessible small changepurse that I keep in my vest inside pocket. <BR><BR>I assume that all thieves are smarter and more alert than me. I just try to make their livelihood as difficult to make as possible.

Alice Twain

Liz:<BR><BR>2. A tourist does _not_need_ to carry more cash and credit cards than he does at home. If he does so is only out of the same kind of panick that drives home to use a moneybelt.<BR>1. This panick is what drives pickpockets to tourists, toghether with the tendency of many tourists to be less careful to their surrounds than they do at home: bring your necessities and be on the watch as you would be at home and nobody will steal anything from you.<BR>3. Even on holiday you do not lose everything, if you are careful, but being careful does not imply that you need such an easy to detect and uncomfortable thing as a money belt.<BR>4. keeping too many valuables on your own person does not hel anyone relax neither at home nor on holiday, so leave your valuables somewhere safe and do not bring them along. Split your valuables in several places (pockets) and you will not need a moneybelt.<BR><BR>XXX:<BR><BR>An unskilled pickpocket will not steal anything from an alert person no matter how. He is just unable to.<BR><BR>Raisin:<BR><BR>All you need is a paper sleeve and a piece of adhesive tape. And the underside of a drawer. Suppose I have been staying in palces with no safes (b&amp;bs, rooms, small pensions) all through my holidays, even when there was nothing but cash to carry along (and the too bothersome to care about using them travel cheques) and always found a way to hide my money somewhere with but a piece of paper and a piece of sellotape?

peter

<BR><BR>I just took a poll of my fellow pickpockets and we are in 100% agreement with Alice: forget about moneybelts. <BR><BR>We would sure appreciate all tourists making our job easier.

raisin

Alice, I don't know about the paper and tape idea...that solution won't be able to give me the peace of mind i need. I don't want to have to rush sightseeing and simply taking in a city to make sure my money and passport (yikes!) are still there.<BR><BR>When I stayed at a relatives' house in another country, I only carried cash with me for the entire trip (hard to access ATMs). What i did was to leave some of my cash in some inconspicuous place (much like your under the drawer idea), but i ended up worrying about it the whole time I was out sightseeing that i rushed myself to go back home. It's not that I didn't trust my relatives but I didn't trust the housekeepers they had constantly cleaning. <BR><BR>What if someone accidentally came upon my hiding place? My trip allowance and passport would be dependent upon that person's honesty. I simply couldn't take that chance. Thanks, anyway. <BR><BR>

Alice Twain

Raisin:<BR><BR>Who will ever search your room as you are out? Are you a drug dealer of some sort so that the police is going to search your room? I suspect (or at lest hope) not. Nobody will watch the undersides of drawers in a hotel room!<BR><BR>peter:<BR><BR>How much do you know about pickpockets? I suppose you have never meet one. I have.

Mina

David:<BR><BR>I'm with St Cirq on this one...do the &quot;man bag&quot;. Backpacks make me nervous. The canvas messengers bags are nice because you can keep them in front of you. Search a little harder and find one with a zipper...it will offer a bit more protection than just a open bag with a flap. The best would be the zipper, and the flap with a lot of velcro. Keep the flap facing the inside of your body, and one hand on the bag (make it a habit). That may sound obvious, but you'd be surprised how many people don't do it, and the bag ends up over your bum for easy access (we had to repeatedly tell our friend on the subway to pull her bag forward!)<BR><BR>I've never used a moneybelt, but I will try one this time because I'm backpacking/hostelling. Even though it's dorky, I want a better peace of mind. So I'll use the belt, and learn how to make good bedraggled, poverty-stricken expression.

raisin

Alice:<BR><BR>uhhhh...thanks(???) for the reply???<BR><BR>okay, here's one: WHAT IF I WAS? What would be your alternate solution?<BR><BR>

raisin

I'm just playing with you, ALice. You really shouldn't get so worked up over these questions--it's silly!<BR><BR>Mina, I think the messenger bag is what i would take as a day bag too. I've been using one when I was in college, so I know it's comfortable since I've had to run to class across campus with it...and it's incredibly roomy too! <BR><BR>I have one with three zippered compartments (front, middle, and back) and it's that rainproof material (much like umbrellas and it's black! Although it doesn't have a flap to secure it even more, i don't really want to have to buy another one. <BR><BR>But yeah, to David who started this thread: A messenger bag might work for you. It certainly will carry all the stuff you listed and more! And like Mina described it, it's a &quot;man-bag&quot;--so, it works for both sexes. Most importantly, it can go over your shoulder and across your body so that the bag is in front of you (with your hand over it for extra security).

Mina

Raisin: College is a good test, isn't it? All those heavy brick books in the bag! <BR><BR>Speaking of which, David, if you can, buy one with cushy shoulder straps. If your bag is heavy, it hurts!

Pete

I read in the newspaper about an Israeli ElAl security man who carries expired credit cards in his wallet and his real credit cards inside his ankle holster.<BR><BR>Consider carry a gas mask in case of Arab terrorist attack.<BR><BR>In France, I carry a briefcase because lots of people there carry one, even the school kids. It's a soft sided variety.<BR><BR>Don't carry all your money around your neck. During a robbery, if you have all your money around your neck, the robbers will yank your neck off.<BR><BR>If you check luggage, consider packing a knife. Just don't bring it aboard the plane.

Lesli

Raisin -<BR><BR>Re the no hotel safe situation: I use a combination lock on my rollaboard-type luggage. I lock my passport, plane tix, and extra cash/credit card inside the bag when I go out. <BR><BR>(I often do this even when there *is* a hotel safe, because I worry that I might forget and leave all these important things behind when I check out!)

Alice Twain

Raisin: I simply like to discuss. In Any case, I have read so many comments on &quot;how not to get pickpocketed whaile walking around a foreign city&quot;, but I have not yet read anyone say &quot;how not to get my stuff stolen from my suitcase at landing on Italian airports&quot;. Do you know that you might worry about the wrong part of your trip, since a few months we have had some 25 people who worked at Mapensa airport arrested for stealing valuables from the suitcases of the travellers, and a year ago the same happened at Venice airport???

SA

I keep my valuables w/me @ all times. In regards to the problems w/baggage handlers I ALWAYS carry-on. Europe for 3 weeks, my wife &amp; I each take a small 'drag'along + a small backpack (1). If we purchase anything, we ship it home. If I can't carry it I don't need it. Many problems can be totally voided from consideration w/a little upfront prep work. Most of the thieves you are talking about on this post are opportunistic. You don't give them a chance or look befuddled, confused &amp; like a lost tourist these problems are of little concern.

Mike

Someone rifled thru my luggage at the Milan airport and took things like film, panty hose (not mine =-- my wife's), jeans, my tux cumberbunds, etc. The luggage had locks on, but they got in my manipulating the zipper. <BR><BR>Ha Ha. I told my wife next time to carry her pantyhose &amp; film (exposed film for the whole trip) with her carry-ons.

Alice Twain

SA:<BR><BR>You do one thing right (always keeping your valuables in the carry on) and one wrong (bring your money and valuables with you always). Think about it, is it really safer to bring all your stuff with you than leaving it in a place where you could easily point at the possible thief if you find out your things have been stolen (thus recovering them instead of having them lost forever).

SA

If you never lose them you don't have to worry about any of that. My peace of mind is certainly greater knowing that it is on my person than taped to the bottom of some drawer somewhere. Of course I do keep a copy of my passport seperate &amp; I know my Credit Card &amp; check card #'s by heart. I also work for the issuing bank so that would probably help as well. I don't carry much cash except for what I 'll be using for that day (that's what they make ATM's for). I'll continue to do things as I have up to this point, it's worked so far...If there is an in-room safe I'll certainly take advantage of it but most apartments don't come w/that luxury.

peter

<BR>Alic, didn't I say that I and those polled AGREED with your advice to tourists, to forget about moneybelts?<BR><BR>I would have thought you might have said a thank you or something.