What's The Difference Between The Italains and The French??
Mar 2nd, 2006, 09:13 AM
#41
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Great book if you think asking questions about different cultures is just generalizing and that strangers opinions don't matter re this kind of question:
Blink by Malcolm Gladwell
It's a non-fiction and on numerous best seller lists in the US. Excellent and sometimes funny study of how we really make decisions and judge overall. Not just about cognitive inputs re "rude" or "stand-offish" etc.- much more.
Actually for travelers, I think this book is just a must do.
Blink by Malcolm Gladwell
It's a non-fiction and on numerous best seller lists in the US. Excellent and sometimes funny study of how we really make decisions and judge overall. Not just about cognitive inputs re "rude" or "stand-offish" etc.- much more.
Actually for travelers, I think this book is just a must do.
May 17th, 2006, 12:30 PM
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We found the French interesting-waiters true to the stereotype and everyone else really quite wonderful. They are after all people, just like us. The Italians and Italy-heavenly, romantic, lively, simply beautiful people in a gorgeous country. Again, they are real people, just like us. We have enjoyed our travels to these countries (we are returning to Italy in September). We have also enjoyed Austria and Germany, here too we found the people to be great! Even the German police were extra nice to us in Munich during the very hectic Oktoberfest (we were traveling the wrong way on a one way!). All of the people we have met on our travels have been marvelous and we are very glad we did not miss these opportunities because of misconceptions. Enjoy your trip! Shirley
May 17th, 2006, 01:07 PM
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The French speak French. The Italians speak Italian. Italians eat a lot of spaghetti. The French eat a lot of snails. The last time Italy was a real international power was in about 400 AD. The French have been a international power more recently until they lost their national will after the debacle of World War One. France resents not being a world power today. Italy doesn't care whether they are a world power ever again. French culture extends from the chilly English Channel to the Mediteranean so is more varied. Generally, the Mediteranean dominates Italian culture. With regards to the British, the they despise the French but love the Italians. Half the British Labour Party vacations in Tuscany every summer. Lastly, Italy will defeat France in the World Cup this year.
This is a thumbnail sketch and done in the spirit of tongue-in-cheek.
This is a thumbnail sketch and done in the spirit of tongue-in-cheek.
May 17th, 2006, 01:18 PM
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The French men treat their women as jewels.
The Italian men treat women as another conquest.
Both are pretty machismo cultures, as far as I'm concerned.
The French love to debate.
The Italians love to chat.
The French smother their food in delicious and delicate sauces.
The Italians like their food more "au natural".
A lot of French wines taste better after aging.
Most Italian wines don't preserve well.
French newspapers may be full of fashion, etc statements while Italian newspapers are filled with sex/romance/marriage/(most of all)cheating stories.
Eh! Voila! These are my generalizations about the French and the Italians.
The Italian men treat women as another conquest.
Both are pretty machismo cultures, as far as I'm concerned.
The French love to debate.
The Italians love to chat.
The French smother their food in delicious and delicate sauces.
The Italians like their food more "au natural".
A lot of French wines taste better after aging.
Most Italian wines don't preserve well.
French newspapers may be full of fashion, etc statements while Italian newspapers are filled with sex/romance/marriage/(most of all)cheating stories.
Eh! Voila! These are my generalizations about the French and the Italians.
May 17th, 2006, 01:25 PM
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Well said, Easytraveler---except for the part about the Italian wines not aging well. We're holding some '97 Brunellos that we were advised not to touch for several more years. But we did cheat and open one. Oooh-la-la!
And now I know why I get all those winks from Italian men, but not the French.
And now I know why I get all those winks from Italian men, but not the French.
May 17th, 2006, 03:00 PM
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I thought geographically the correct answer would be The Principality of Monaco!
Balenciaga, dear, not any more! JPII was one Pope, Benedict XVI, another matter entirely. Not that the present Pontiff isn't respected and liked, but he's certainly not so revered that the Italians would like to abbreviate the canonization process and have him "sainted" ASAP. (Of course, he may need to stop breathing for that to happen, but details like that would never stop an impassioned Italian mob..)
In terms of my very own experiences, I feel much more at home in Italy than I do in France. And that's a bit ironic, since I'm an American born into a Canadian family which had originated in Ireland. Go figure!
BC
Balenciaga, dear, not any more! JPII was one Pope, Benedict XVI, another matter entirely. Not that the present Pontiff isn't respected and liked, but he's certainly not so revered that the Italians would like to abbreviate the canonization process and have him "sainted" ASAP. (Of course, he may need to stop breathing for that to happen, but details like that would never stop an impassioned Italian mob..)
In terms of my very own experiences, I feel much more at home in Italy than I do in France. And that's a bit ironic, since I'm an American born into a Canadian family which had originated in Ireland. Go figure!
BC
May 17th, 2006, 05:56 PM
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I think people are reading this thread for the humor, (e.g. "Italains, from the Germanic country Italainia"
, not caring one bit what each of us thinks about the difference between the Italians and the French. It's the wit that makes it worth reading. Our personal experiences are merely that, entirely personal.
, not caring one bit what each of us thinks about the difference between the Italians and the French. It's the wit that makes it worth reading. Our personal experiences are merely that, entirely personal.
May 17th, 2006, 06:48 PM
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I love when posts slowly degrade, I am well placed to comment, a half irish, half italian, married to a half french, half italian wife, living in quebec.
Italians are by far the best, Frenchman not far behind. I speak fluent french and not so bad italian, and while travelling in europe I am always mistaken for an american. I have overheard some great conversations in France about how they loathe americans which I am not supposed to hear because they presume North Americans can never speak French, I was even called thick "Epais" with a beautiful smile from a busboy, wow was he suprised when I chastised him in perfect French. I have never heard these kind of conversations in Italy..... so you make up your own mind....I'll pick italy any day!!!
Italians are by far the best, Frenchman not far behind. I speak fluent french and not so bad italian, and while travelling in europe I am always mistaken for an american. I have overheard some great conversations in France about how they loathe americans which I am not supposed to hear because they presume North Americans can never speak French, I was even called thick "Epais" with a beautiful smile from a busboy, wow was he suprised when I chastised him in perfect French. I have never heard these kind of conversations in Italy..... so you make up your own mind....I'll pick italy any day!!!
May 17th, 2006, 07:49 PM
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oneillchris, some friends of mine that now live in the US but were born and raised in Italy were in Paris at one of the department stores. They were going to buy some items. They told the story about a lovely American woman in front of them who also buying some items. They said she was so pleasant, well dressed and so well mannered. When the store clerk started to take care of my friends purchases the clerk started really badmouthing the American woman and Americans in general, making fun of her and being so rude. My friends (who speak Italian, French and American English) became outraged..they are the most loyal American immigrants/naturalized citizens you could ever meet. They really told the clerk off and left without making their purchases. The clerk obviously did not know that my friends are now citizens of the US.
Is this typical? I have no idea. I have never visited France and if I did I do not speak France so I wouldn't have a clue what was being said. But an interesting and sad story.
Italy..guess what, I love it!
Is this typical? I have no idea. I have never visited France and if I did I do not speak France so I wouldn't have a clue what was being said. But an interesting and sad story.
Italy..guess what, I love it!
May 17th, 2006, 11:50 PM
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My French two cents about this Italians Vs French people debate.
Outside visions of the two countries are also determined by history : as a consequence, visitors arrive in both countries with sharply contrasting preconceptions. And one generally "sees" what one expects :
1. For Americans, Italy is a familiar and reassuring country, having made a significant contribution to the US melting pot. Italian immigration to the US has been significant well into the twentieth century. Italian-Americans are a visible group and family ties betwwen the US and Italy are many. Italian food (or rather American-Italian food) is everywhere. As a consequence of PC, there can't possibly be any form of "Italian bashing" in the US, although the early waves of Italian immigrants were sometimes less then well received. In recent history, Italy, one of the "Axis powers" in WWII, as an ally of Germany and Japan, defeated by the US, has since had a very "pro-American" foreign policy. The US is very influential in Italian political life, the defense ties are intense, the US 6th Fleet is based in Naples... and Italy is part of the "coalition of the willing" in Iraq.
For all those reasons, old and new, Italians are necessarily wonderful, and for Americans, Italians necessarily love them,
2. By contrast, France is a "bad" country, despite the early historic ties with the US. With slower demographic growth, in the 19th century, compared to some of their European neigbours, the French have emigrated in comparatively smaller numbers. Only 4 % of Americans, I think, claim French ancestry. I won't write the history of US-French relations since 1945 here...There is no French "constituency" in the US. All the stereotypes concerning the French are negative, and French-bashing has become a welcome break from the daily tyranny of political correctness. For many Americans, the French necessarily hate them...
Of course, this is a caricatural presentation. But there is a bit of that, I feel in the minds of the people who visit.
Besides, how can one compare the subway clerk in Paris, in a metropolis of 11 million people, and the restauranteur one can leisurely talk with, in a small Italian town?
Italy, as well as France , are very diverse, and comparisons are often ludicrous.
I'll finish by saying I am very fond of Italy, where I feel well, a country which is arguably the last bastion of civilisation...
Outside visions of the two countries are also determined by history : as a consequence, visitors arrive in both countries with sharply contrasting preconceptions. And one generally "sees" what one expects :
1. For Americans, Italy is a familiar and reassuring country, having made a significant contribution to the US melting pot. Italian immigration to the US has been significant well into the twentieth century. Italian-Americans are a visible group and family ties betwwen the US and Italy are many. Italian food (or rather American-Italian food) is everywhere. As a consequence of PC, there can't possibly be any form of "Italian bashing" in the US, although the early waves of Italian immigrants were sometimes less then well received. In recent history, Italy, one of the "Axis powers" in WWII, as an ally of Germany and Japan, defeated by the US, has since had a very "pro-American" foreign policy. The US is very influential in Italian political life, the defense ties are intense, the US 6th Fleet is based in Naples... and Italy is part of the "coalition of the willing" in Iraq.
For all those reasons, old and new, Italians are necessarily wonderful, and for Americans, Italians necessarily love them,
2. By contrast, France is a "bad" country, despite the early historic ties with the US. With slower demographic growth, in the 19th century, compared to some of their European neigbours, the French have emigrated in comparatively smaller numbers. Only 4 % of Americans, I think, claim French ancestry. I won't write the history of US-French relations since 1945 here...There is no French "constituency" in the US. All the stereotypes concerning the French are negative, and French-bashing has become a welcome break from the daily tyranny of political correctness. For many Americans, the French necessarily hate them...
Of course, this is a caricatural presentation. But there is a bit of that, I feel in the minds of the people who visit.
Besides, how can one compare the subway clerk in Paris, in a metropolis of 11 million people, and the restauranteur one can leisurely talk with, in a small Italian town?
Italy, as well as France , are very diverse, and comparisons are often ludicrous.
I'll finish by saying I am very fond of Italy, where I feel well, a country which is arguably the last bastion of civilisation...
May 18th, 2006, 05:51 AM
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The greatest Frenchman since World War Two was DeGaulle. The greatest female is Bridget Bardot. The greatest Italian man since World War Two was Mazaratti, the car maker. The greatest female is Sophia Loren.
More seriously, France's many varied regions (ie. Brittany, Alsace, Provence) retain their local ambience although the French state was centralized to an enormous degree through the Middle Ages (under Kings Philip Augustus, St. Louis and Philip the Fair) and under Cardinal Richelieu, Louis XVI, the two Napoleons and De Gaulle. Italy didn't become a unified state until the 1860s and even today Italians have more allegience to their locality and region than to the central government.Italians have anarchistic tendancies.
Let me also second the one poster who recommended Barzini's book THE ITALIANS. Although dated (written in 1960, Barzini laughed at the idea of legalized divorce in Italy, a modern concept Italy would accedeto by the end of that decade), Barzini writes incisively about the Italian people. For all travelers to Europe, I would also recommend Barzini's THE EUROPEANS and its thumbnail sketches of the major nations of Europe.
More seriously, France's many varied regions (ie. Brittany, Alsace, Provence) retain their local ambience although the French state was centralized to an enormous degree through the Middle Ages (under Kings Philip Augustus, St. Louis and Philip the Fair) and under Cardinal Richelieu, Louis XVI, the two Napoleons and De Gaulle. Italy didn't become a unified state until the 1860s and even today Italians have more allegience to their locality and region than to the central government.Italians have anarchistic tendancies.
Let me also second the one poster who recommended Barzini's book THE ITALIANS. Although dated (written in 1960, Barzini laughed at the idea of legalized divorce in Italy, a modern concept Italy would accedeto by the end of that decade), Barzini writes incisively about the Italian people. For all travelers to Europe, I would also recommend Barzini's THE EUROPEANS and its thumbnail sketches of the major nations of Europe.
May 18th, 2006, 06:36 AM
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Trudaine, your argument carries some very solvent points- but I myself don't accept the entire premise that people and in this case Americans always see or "get" an overall impression of what they "expect." It certainly hasn't been true in my case. Nor is it true for many others. Especially if they have a wide multi-cultural background, education, or exposures over a long life.
Just look at the plethora of Europhiles, Francophiles etc. on Fodors.
And I truly disagree that there is no Italian "bashing" in USA personnas, forums, basic national identity etc.
Not only is it there, but oftentimes, it is also immensely accepted. Do you know there is an entire Italian/American Defense League and several other organizations that are not diminishing?
And this isn't just about "The Sopranos" or the Italian as gangster syndrome etc. either.
My own experience during the 60's and '70's in Paris has colored my own opinion of the difference, primarily. It was extremely similar to LoveItaly's friends', as I understand French too. And yes, basically it is just MY opnion. But it has been sustained in repeated experience over time.
I find the French far more conflicted in their own thinking, and more pretentious in manners. I find the Italians more laid back overall, and much more adaptive to tourist inquiry or "change". The French prefer a more formal distance and sense of appropriateness that IMHO is truly hard for a tourist to bridge in just the "correct" manner. It is for me anyway.
And I also do agree that the French treat their own women MUCH better than the Italian men treat theirs. Also that women overall hold a higher "value" in France. And I am Italian/Sicilian- 1st generation. Many would argue that this feminist overlook re women is off. But loving words and romantic looks does not an easy life make. (To translate into bad English.) And the Italian women have a tough row to hoe overall.
French women have far more personal freedom, real economic choices, and are cherished more as daughters, wives etc. for themselves and not for the roles that fulfill/portray. That's one reason the birth rate is under replacement in Italy. The real "work" of parenting is different in France, more shared.
Just my opinion. Too much talk about the men, as far as I'm concern. I still think the females are over 50% of the population in both of these countries.
Just look at the plethora of Europhiles, Francophiles etc. on Fodors.
And I truly disagree that there is no Italian "bashing" in USA personnas, forums, basic national identity etc.
Not only is it there, but oftentimes, it is also immensely accepted. Do you know there is an entire Italian/American Defense League and several other organizations that are not diminishing?
And this isn't just about "The Sopranos" or the Italian as gangster syndrome etc. either.
My own experience during the 60's and '70's in Paris has colored my own opinion of the difference, primarily. It was extremely similar to LoveItaly's friends', as I understand French too. And yes, basically it is just MY opnion. But it has been sustained in repeated experience over time.
I find the French far more conflicted in their own thinking, and more pretentious in manners. I find the Italians more laid back overall, and much more adaptive to tourist inquiry or "change". The French prefer a more formal distance and sense of appropriateness that IMHO is truly hard for a tourist to bridge in just the "correct" manner. It is for me anyway.
And I also do agree that the French treat their own women MUCH better than the Italian men treat theirs. Also that women overall hold a higher "value" in France. And I am Italian/Sicilian- 1st generation. Many would argue that this feminist overlook re women is off. But loving words and romantic looks does not an easy life make. (To translate into bad English.) And the Italian women have a tough row to hoe overall.
French women have far more personal freedom, real economic choices, and are cherished more as daughters, wives etc. for themselves and not for the roles that fulfill/portray. That's one reason the birth rate is under replacement in Italy. The real "work" of parenting is different in France, more shared.
Just my opinion. Too much talk about the men, as far as I'm concern. I still think the females are over 50% of the population in both of these countries.
May 18th, 2006, 07:08 AM
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We visited "friends of friends" last year . Both in Italy and France.
We came over from Canada with a couple bottles of Canadian ice wine.
Our French connection was not impressed with the bottle- he looked at it, mumbled something and it went away.
Our Italian hosts, on the other hand, (and they were probably pretending) were delighted and uncorked it within 20 seconds and everybody knocked it back in a couple of minutes.
The other difference in our experience= getting lost
If you ask someone in France for directions (either in broken French or English) you get the dust off.
In Italy, I found people will take the time to try and help you, and even try to speak some English.
We came over from Canada with a couple bottles of Canadian ice wine.
Our French connection was not impressed with the bottle- he looked at it, mumbled something and it went away.
Our Italian hosts, on the other hand, (and they were probably pretending) were delighted and uncorked it within 20 seconds and everybody knocked it back in a couple of minutes.
The other difference in our experience= getting lost
If you ask someone in France for directions (either in broken French or English) you get the dust off.
In Italy, I found people will take the time to try and help you, and even try to speak some English.
