cmt

And here's the definition of "fattoria":

fattoria s.f.
1 farm; (per allevamento di bestiame) stock-farm: - collettiva, collective farm
2 (casa) farmhouse
3 (non com.)...

constant

a fattoria is a farm

cmt

Here are the translations into Italian of "farm":

Lemma Traduzione in sintesi
farm1 s.
1 fattoria; azienda agricola; tenuta, podere: - equipment, materiale agricolo / health -, clinica della salute / (econ.): - prices, prezzi...
to farm1 v.tr.
1 coltivare: he farms 200 acres, egli coltiva 200 acri
2 allevare ♦ v.intr. fare l'agricoltore; fare l'allevatore: he is farming in...
to farm out v.tr. e avv.
1 dare in appalto; dar fuori (lavoro ecc.): to - out taxes, appaltare la riscossione delle imposte
2 far allevare (un bambino) da altri.
to farm2 v.tr. (rar.) vuotare, pulire.
farmable agg. coltivabile.
farmer s.
1 coltivatore (diretto), colono, agricoltore / - 's year, anno agricolo
2 allevatore: stock -, allevatore di bestiame
3...
farmhand s. bracciante agricolo sin. farm labourer.
farmhouse s. casa colonica.
farming s.
1 il lavorare la terra; agricoltura; coltivazione: he likes -, gli piace fare l'agricoltore
2 il possedere, il dirigere una fattoria
3...
farm labourer »
farmhand.
farmstead s. (spec. amer.) fattoria.
farmyard s. aia; cortile sin. barnyard



Here, instead, is the translation of "factory":

factory s. fabbrica; stabilimento; officina: - costs, costi di produzione, di fabbricazione; - price, prezzo di fabbrica / - board, consiglio di fabbrica / - hand (o...

In answer to someone's question, no, a fattoria does not have to make some new product out of the agricultural products grown or raised on its farm in order to be a fattoria; it's simply a farm, not a manufacturing operation. It can simply raise chickens and sell chickens and eggs, or raise vegetables and sell them.

Neopolitan

Thank you for the exact definition. The next time I'm in Tuscany, I'm going back to that place and tell those people they were wrong! What nerve of them thinking they knew the answer when they are only third of fourth generation of a family selling their farm products! And to think I actually believed them instead of looking in a dictionary!

Neopolitan

Whoa. Now I'm really confused. That last long detailed post was made while I was typing. But the last statement of it is exactly what I said before, unless we're quibbling over the idea of eggs and vegetables being sold as not being "processed or made".

cmt

Did the family tell you that a farm was not a farm if it simply sold its agricultural products, but did not necessarily use them as raw materials which they themselves turned into some manufactured product for sale? (E.g., wheat--> bread; sheep's wool--> sweaters.) I doubt it.

By the way, why do you spell your screen name NeOpolitan, instead of NeApolitan? Is it intended on some play on words?

cmt

...intended to be....

CotswoldScouser

1. Surely no-one who's ever been within 500 miles of Italy could possibly believe fattoria meant factory these days? So let's discard that.

2. But what do dictionaries say? My copy of Garzanti agrees with cmt. My copy of Cassells says "Farmhouse, farm buildings, dairy". My 1885 Tauchnitz says "factory; stewardship". My 1763 Veneroni denies the word exists.

3. FWIW: Never, in all the endless burbling in the press about the CAP, or in any meeting in Luxembourg I've ever been forced to sit through, have I heard "fattoria" used in the way British or American politicians use the word "farm" (as in "this policy will create devastation across the nation's farms&quot. In fact, I've only ever encountered it used to describe physical buildings - not that I'd regard that as indicating very much.

That's not to say cmt's wrong: Italian lacks an equivalent to the OED to take us easily through the history of a word's usage. But I'd suggest the answer to cmcbride's question is a great deal more complicated that cmt is making it out to be.

Neopolitan

cmt, I guess all they really said was that it was a farm that sold food products. I'm not sure that processing or making the products came into the conversation. But those earlier posts that simply said a fattoria is a farm without mentioning selling anything are the posts that I was quibbling with.

As to Neopolitan vs. Neapolitan -- according to MOST English dictionaries, Neapolitan means "in the style of Naples" -- and is an adjective. Neopoliatan is a "person from Naples" and is a noun.

I am a noun, not an adjective. (although I've also been called an interjection)

cmt

The fact that "fattoria" does NOT mean "factory" has been burned into my brain ever since my second year of Italian in college, long ago. I had not done the homework one night, which had consisted of reading a story or two. Unfortunately I was called on to translate a few paragraphs that set the scenem taking place "nella fattoria della parrocchia." I didn't know those words, but thought I might guess. Like some people here, I made a reasopnable guess that "fattoria" must mean "factory." I also guessed that "parrocchia" might mean "wig." so I translated in as "wig factory." I clearly remember that the professor, born and raised on a farm in Imola and educated in Bologna, said that it was the farmyard of the parish church. As the story developed it became clear that this was just a little chicken yard, where the priests got their eggs. ("Wig," by the way, is "parrucca.&quot

There may be nuances of meaning differentiating "fattoria" from various other words for "farm," but still a "fattoria" is not a "factory. Better to be too simple than just wrong.

cmt

"NeOpolitan" used to be considered a misspelling of "NeApolitan," meaning a person from Naples OR in the style of Naples. Maybe the mistake became so commonplace that some dictionaries caved in and decided to call it acceptable. When translated from Italian (napoletano) TO English, it's always spelled with the A in any dictionaries I've ever seen. (I've seen it with what I consider the misspelling so often that I have checked it several times.)

jahoulih

Further to cmt's point, "Neapolitan" comes from the Latin (and Greek) name for Naples, which is Neapolis, NOT Neopolis. ("Nea polis" means "new city" in Greek; it's Nea- and not Neo- because "polis" is feminine.) "Neopolitan" has its origins in a mistake, and any attempt to draw a noun/adjective distinction has no etymological basis.

cmt

That makes sense, jahoulih. By the way, not one of the dictionaries I had acccess to today spelled it with the O intead of the A, so maybe the mistake is still just a mistake and hasn't become acceptable yet.

cigalechanta

cmt is right. Check this TV program about a small farm.
http://www.mediaset.it/brand/canale5...amma_858.shtml

Neopolitan

Well, it may be based on a mistake, but for fun I just googled "Neopolitan" and the very first hit was a link to Free Dictionary which says "Neopolitan is a noun --a resident of Naples".

Then I went to dictionary.com and entered Neopolitan. It said "noun, a resident of Naples". I entered Neapolitan and it said "adjective --Of, belonging to, or characteristic of Naples, Italy". Then it gave a second definition of "a resident of Naples, Italy."

Now you want to get real technical? My name has nothing to do with Naples, Italy. I live in Naples, Florida. So Italian roots and correct words in Italian really aren't important here. And now I think it is funny that I checked only two online dictionaries and got support for what I originally said from both of them. What's more, both dictionaries dropped the Italy part of the definition when it gave the Neopolitan one. So maybe, just maybe, it is an acceptable spelling for people from other places called Naples that aren't in Italy.

In any case, I don't think it's a big deal how I want to spell my name and not worth a big "my dictionary is better than your dictionary" sort of argument.
Can't people spell their own name any way they want? I know a girl who spells her name SanDee, and another girl who spells her name Doloros.

Neopolitan

and cmt, I'm really surprised that your computer doesn't have access to either dictionary.com or to freedictionary.

cmt

I'm sure it does. But I prefer to use the reputable print dictionaries, if I'm someplace where I have access to them.

cmt

<<In any case, I don't think it's a big deal how I want to spell my name and not worth a big "my dictionary is better than your dictionary" sort of argument. Can't people spell their own name any way they want? I know a girl who spells her name SanDee, and another girl who spells her name Doloros.>>

Yes, people can and do spell their names as they please. I've seen Frankeye (for Frankie), Dontay (for Dante), Arenn (for Aaron), Mykal (for Micheal), Corrine (for Corinne), Sussan (for Susan). If you recall, this tangent started when I asked you if they was some reason WHY you spelled your screen name NeOpolitan rather than NeApolitan--whether it was some play on words. I'd been wondering that for a while. I'm aware that you will get plenty of hits for the O spelling. For now, it was nice to see that there were more hits for the A spelling, which has been correct for a long, long time. I know some people think it's cute or rebellious or "creative" or trailblazing to spell their children's names in some way other than the traditionally correct way, and, on the other hand, some people think they are spelling a name in the standard "correct" way, but misspell it because they don't know any better. Of course if you wanted to use the standard spelling, it would be Neapolitan, and all or almost all print dictionaries still provide that as the only accepted spelling.

P.S. I thought you said you didn't want to go back to posting on Fodors.

Neopolitan

Please tell me where I said that I didn't want to go back to posting on Fodor's. Several people have mentioned that and I'm unsure why. I do recall saying that if Fodors preferred people not to correct misinformation, that perhaps I wouldn't miss it. But I haven't seen any signs recently of the editor who made that statement. That's all I remember saying. That's not quite the same thing is it?

Meanwhile what part of "I'm not from Naples, Italy so the Italian references don't really apply" did you not understand? And what part of "the first two dictionaries I looked at said Neopolitan is a person from Naples" was unclear? As I said I didn't think it was worth a silly "my dictionary is better than your dictionary" argument to me, but I guess it is to you. Feel free to use whichever dictionaries you like. I'm perfectly content with dictionary.com.

I've lived in Naples, Florida for 30 years. Neopolitan is a standard term for people who live here, just as it is supported by online dictionaries of the English language. On the other hand the term here for the adjective describing the style of architecture and other things is Neapolitan. That difference is supported by at least one dictionary's distinction between the noun and the adjective. I don't suppose Neopolitan is a standard term for people who live in Naples, Italy, however. If I move to Naples, Italy, I'll probably change the spelling.For now, I'll stick to the standard spelling that has been in use here for the 30 years I've lived here.

Thank you for asking and for caring.

Neopolitan

By the way, if I HAD said I didn't want to post on Fodor's (which I don't think I did say) you're giving me a good reason why a person might say that. Your continuing twice after I explained WHY I spell the name that way and your condescending tone in saying things like "Of course if you wanted to use the standard spelling, it would be Neapolitan" even after twice explaining myself, and continuing to compare my spelling with the "rebellious and cute" mispellings of names because people "don't know better", does not go unnoticed. It reminds me why so many people find it difficult to post here.
I have not been trying to "oneup" anyone here, unlike you. I have merely tried to explain myself, despite your refusal to accept what I have to say.