We want to retire in Europe in 15 years!
Dec 11th, 2006, 05:02 AM
#1
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We want to retire in Europe in 15 years!
We are an American male couple and will retire in 13 years. He'll be 62 and I'll be 55. We will have decent pensions--a little less than half of our income when we retire--and our home will be paid off. We are both teachers.
We dream of retiring to France--either Paris or Nice. Since we speak Spanish, we've also thought about Spain, but the thought is not nearly as thrilling.
Will we be able to do this? What will the challenges be? How expensive is expat. health insurance? Will we even need it?
What are the rules for retirement visas?
Also, any places in Spain or the rest of Europe come to mind where French joie de vivre can be found in abundance, in case France is too expensive or the language issue is a problem.
We dream of retiring to France--either Paris or Nice. Since we speak Spanish, we've also thought about Spain, but the thought is not nearly as thrilling.
Will we be able to do this? What will the challenges be? How expensive is expat. health insurance? Will we even need it?
What are the rules for retirement visas?
Also, any places in Spain or the rest of Europe come to mind where French joie de vivre can be found in abundance, in case France is too expensive or the language issue is a problem.
Dec 11th, 2006, 05:18 AM
#3
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Unless you're really quite rich, you're going to find this hard.
It can be done, but it's going to take a lot of organisation. Spain will be much easier than France. France is almost impossibly bureaucratic.
It can be done, but it's going to take a lot of organisation. Spain will be much easier than France. France is almost impossibly bureaucratic.
Dec 11th, 2006, 05:49 AM
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Either France or Spain, your first hurdle is to secure long-term residence visa. (Assume you and your partners are not EU passport holders.) For this, you'll need to contact consulate general.
In general, most countries require you have adequate social security/pension income to support you.
Do you/your partner speak French?
Any particular reasons the thought of retiring in Spain is "not nearly as thrilling"?
I think you'll need medical insurance, as Medicare coverage does not extend beyond US of A. You can generally get health coverage either locally (though maybe not practical depending on the age when you get there) or Americans Abroad organisations.
In general, most countries require you have adequate social security/pension income to support you.
Do you/your partner speak French?
Any particular reasons the thought of retiring in Spain is "not nearly as thrilling"?
I think you'll need medical insurance, as Medicare coverage does not extend beyond US of A. You can generally get health coverage either locally (though maybe not practical depending on the age when you get there) or Americans Abroad organisations.
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:02 AM
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Bonjour Cimbrone,
You should contact the French embassy or consulate near you for the exact requirements, but in your kind of situation , getting a residency permit in France depends mostly on having sufficient income (one that ensures you can afford to pay for health insurance). You'll have to enquire whether you could be eligible to subscribe to French social security (CMU = Couverture Médicale Universelle = Universal Medical Coverage).
Language should not be too much of an obstacle to your living happily ever after clearing all the administrative hurdles expatriation entails, unless of course you both prove totally unable to learn any French at all ;-)
You should contact the French embassy or consulate near you for the exact requirements, but in your kind of situation , getting a residency permit in France depends mostly on having sufficient income (one that ensures you can afford to pay for health insurance). You'll have to enquire whether you could be eligible to subscribe to French social security (CMU = Couverture Médicale Universelle = Universal Medical Coverage).
Language should not be too much of an obstacle to your living happily ever after clearing all the administrative hurdles expatriation entails, unless of course you both prove totally unable to learn any French at all ;-)
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:05 AM
#7
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Well, we'll have pensions, so would getting the residence permits be very difficult?
The tentative plan would be to buy a small apartment somewhere. Doesn't have to be fancy or centrally located--just in a safe neighborhood. Our tastes are quite simple, actually.
Spain doesn't thrill us because, I suppose, we haven't spent much time there. And we haven't spent much time there (4 hours in Madrid, to be honest)because the idea of Spain doesn't thrill us
Is there a part of Spain someone would recommend if we love Paris and Provence and the Riviera? Is residency much easier to obtain there?
USNA, isn't it a little soon for a tax attorney? What am I missing?
The tentative plan would be to buy a small apartment somewhere. Doesn't have to be fancy or centrally located--just in a safe neighborhood. Our tastes are quite simple, actually.
Spain doesn't thrill us because, I suppose, we haven't spent much time there. And we haven't spent much time there (4 hours in Madrid, to be honest)because the idea of Spain doesn't thrill us
Is there a part of Spain someone would recommend if we love Paris and Provence and the Riviera? Is residency much easier to obtain there?
USNA, isn't it a little soon for a tax attorney? What am I missing?
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:15 AM
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Whichever country you decide to retire, I personally think it would be important for you to spend some time.
At least from UK perspective, lots of senior citizens seem to be choosing Spain (costa del sol etc) for retirement destination.
Not sure about tax attorneys, but you'll need a good tax accountant as US citizens will continue to pay tax on worldwide income. Also, if you're really well-off, you'll need to keep an eye on French wealth tax (levied on your total asset base).
At least from UK perspective, lots of senior citizens seem to be choosing Spain (costa del sol etc) for retirement destination.
Not sure about tax attorneys, but you'll need a good tax accountant as US citizens will continue to pay tax on worldwide income. Also, if you're really well-off, you'll need to keep an eye on French wealth tax (levied on your total asset base).
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:15 AM
#9
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Here's a link to the French Embassy page concerning long-term visas: http://www.ambafrance-us.org/visitin.../usvisas.asp#6
And here's a quote from the pertinent part:
"- for people wishing to retire in France, proof of sufficient income: pension, dividends, savings, band and brokerage account statements + 3 copies
Proof of medical insurance with coverage valid in France + 3 copies"
If you contact a nearby consulate you can probably get more specific information, such as whether your pensions and SS will be enough.
I'd also suggest starting to learn the language. It gets harder the older you are. Since you already know Spanish, you should have a head start.
And here's a quote from the pertinent part:
"- for people wishing to retire in France, proof of sufficient income: pension, dividends, savings, band and brokerage account statements + 3 copies
Proof of medical insurance with coverage valid in France + 3 copies"
If you contact a nearby consulate you can probably get more specific information, such as whether your pensions and SS will be enough.
I'd also suggest starting to learn the language. It gets harder the older you are. Since you already know Spanish, you should have a head start.
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:30 AM
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What you are missing is the economic forecast for 2020. There is little that you can do between now and then EXCEPT travel frequently to areas that might appeal to you. You might consider a month long rental during a summer to test the waters. And, of course, max your potential retirement income so that the dollars are available when the time comes. Look to some type of teacher exchange program or consider teaching in the military school system which would get you half way there.
We are planning the same thing now and both are in education. Our first move with be three months rental in England. The is the max in the EU without a visa. Need to test the system. The second phase with be another 3 month rental in Italy. After that, will review the plan and see if longer term would work.
I am concerned about your comments about half your income. Our goal is to match our pre retirement income (will be close) but are very concerning about the declining dollar. I think purchasing property is out of the question. France has extremely complicated rules for foreign purchases. England is better. Have not looked at either Italy or Spain.
Good luck, Frank
We are planning the same thing now and both are in education. Our first move with be three months rental in England. The is the max in the EU without a visa. Need to test the system. The second phase with be another 3 month rental in Italy. After that, will review the plan and see if longer term would work.
I am concerned about your comments about half your income. Our goal is to match our pre retirement income (will be close) but are very concerning about the declining dollar. I think purchasing property is out of the question. France has extremely complicated rules for foreign purchases. England is better. Have not looked at either Italy or Spain.
Good luck, Frank
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:36 AM
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Hi C,
>We will have decent pensions--a little less than half of our income when we retire-..<
Are you signed up in the Social Security System?
Your partner will be eligible, or close to it.
An apt in Paris is likely to be very expensive.
You might want to consider a town or city withn an hour's train ride of Paris.
Real estate in Auxerre was about 1/3 that in Paris when we were there in 2005.
>We will have decent pensions--a little less than half of our income when we retire-..<
Are you signed up in the Social Security System?
Your partner will be eligible, or close to it.
An apt in Paris is likely to be very expensive.
You might want to consider a town or city withn an hour's train ride of Paris.
Real estate in Auxerre was about 1/3 that in Paris when we were there in 2005.
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:41 AM
#12
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Hi Cimbrone
50% of pre-retirment income? Not near enough. If we start immediately, you and I can triple your savings by 2008. Think motorized Hula-Hoops!
Seriously, think Eastern Europe! Live there and train into France several times a year. Good luck!
50% of pre-retirment income? Not near enough. If we start immediately, you and I can triple your savings by 2008. Think motorized Hula-Hoops!
Seriously, think Eastern Europe! Live there and train into France several times a year. Good luck!
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:48 AM
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Actually, purchasing property in France is simple. There's no difference in the rules for French citizens and non-citizens. The only thing to be cautious about is inheritance law. (Blood relatives have rights that cannot be taken away). But this is changing, slowly, and may change more.
The best investment you could possibly make in the next 13 years would be to become fluent in French. Otherwise, you would miss a lot.
The best investment you could possibly make in the next 13 years would be to become fluent in French. Otherwise, you would miss a lot.
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:52 AM
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From a legal perspective, you'll want to monitor developments in the French legal system governing recognisition of same-sex partners in terms of benefits, residency permits and inheritance. I don't know how far the French concept of PACS will get you and no doubt it will evolve over time.
On a lighter note, be sure to indulge in the excerpts from David Sedaris' memoirs that focus on his move to and life in France with his partner. The story about his fledgling French class trying to teach an elderly Moroccan Muslim woman about Easter is hysterically funny (at least to those of us who have tried to explain things in a language other than our native one).
On a lighter note, be sure to indulge in the excerpts from David Sedaris' memoirs that focus on his move to and life in France with his partner. The story about his fledgling French class trying to teach an elderly Moroccan Muslim woman about Easter is hysterically funny (at least to those of us who have tried to explain things in a language other than our native one).
Dec 11th, 2006, 06:55 AM
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I appreciate all of the replies. The Auxerre idea (or someplace like it) sounds good.
The 1/2 of pre-retirement income is a conservative estimate. It doesn't include savings in a pre-tax retirement savings account. Or the cabin in the mountains. Or social security.
I definitely agree that spending time in advance is important. Once the dog is gone (sniff, sniff), summers in Europe will be more practical.
The 1/2 of pre-retirement income is a conservative estimate. It doesn't include savings in a pre-tax retirement savings account. Or the cabin in the mountains. Or social security.
I definitely agree that spending time in advance is important. Once the dog is gone (sniff, sniff), summers in Europe will be more practical.
Dec 11th, 2006, 07:05 AM
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>50% of pre-retirment income? Not near enough.<
Y'all are forgetting Social Security.
I am a half-pay former civil servant.
The SS people send my wife and I about 2/3 of my pension amount.
TIAA/CREF sends us about 12% more.
Other investment income is about 10% more.
Total is slightly over what they used to pay me to come to work every day.
Y'all are forgetting Social Security.
I am a half-pay former civil servant.
The SS people send my wife and I about 2/3 of my pension amount.
TIAA/CREF sends us about 12% more.
Other investment income is about 10% more.
Total is slightly over what they used to pay me to come to work every day.
Dec 11th, 2006, 07:37 AM
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50% of income might be sufficient once the housing is purchased. My wife and I retired on that amount (both public employees) and I feel confident that we could afford to live in France with that income.
