maxypants

My daughters and I made a trip to Umbria, May one year ago. Our first night was in a small hotel in the center of Orvieto. We drove to the hotel, dropped our bags and parked in a public lot. Nine months later I got a charge on my AmEx bill for 50E from Thrifty car rental. I disputed the charge because I had no idea what it was for. It was for a ticket I got for driving in a restricted zone captured by camera. So I paid it. Yesterday I got a letter from the police in Orvieto telling me to pay 108E for the ticket! the 50E charge was merely administrative and went to Thrifty only. Italy must collect these fines from uninformed tourists all the time because they have a web site and English-speaking people you can call to discuss your ticket.
I told the woman that I love Italy but that this was an unpleasant end to what had been one of my best vacations ever. And that we were going back to Italy again this fall. She then said that if I have proof of my hotel stay and that we went to drop off our bags only, I might get the ticket excused. So we'll see...
Maybe everyone knows about these restricted vehicular zones, but, other than a city like Siena, I had no idea.

kybourbon

You are supposed to have your hotel report your luggage drop off (license number) to the police to avoid a ticket in restricted zones.
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...m-florence.cfm

The fee from the rental company is not for the ticket. It's for providing your info to the police so they can issue a ticket.

Zerlina

Almost *all* historical centers in Italy have traffic-restricted zones. If you plan to drive again in the fall, find out about them in advance.

It is a misconception that the majority of fines are collected from tourists. In Florence, 86% are collected from Florentines and other Italians.

Ignorance of the law has never been a valid excuse, not in Italy and not in any other country.

maxypants

I didn't know that and I have just looked back at the email exchange with the lady who owns the hotel. I told her we were driving and asked for directions. She responded with a map, no information about driving in the center of town. I am sending the emails to the police web site and hope to get the ticket excused.

ellenem

Here's an article describing the ZTL signage you probably missed on your way into Orvieto.

http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/drivin...s_speeding.htm

PalenQ

Ignorance is no defense in such a violation - that you were clueless is your fault and IMO the fault of your car rental company for not warning you of what many many Fodorites have found to be in your case.

Do the crime, do the time. And just ignore anything from the Italian government if you wish - let them collect.

nochblad

I think there is a time limit on these things so I believe that it is within your right to contest it. I will see if I can find out anything but you probably have recourse either against the Comune or Thrifty.

romana2

Maxypants,

Sorry to hear about your ticket, but before your next trip be sure to look at the link provided by elenem. ALWAYS look for the "ZTL" signs (zona traffico limitato - restricted traffic zones). If you drive within those, you will surely get a ticket - and yes, it is always months or even a year later, but they have a photo of your car and license plate. Now you know what to ask for and when you check with hotels, ask them specifically when arranging drop-off.

Zerlina

The comune has one year from the time it receives your whereabouts from the rental agency to bill you. So no recourse there.

portiaperu

We drove throughout Umbria and several other regions of Italy over a four week stay. We requested specific information about parking at our apartment rentals and hotels. The guidebooks we read prior to our trip cautioned about driving/parking in the historic centers of the towns we planned to visit and one guide had detailed information about driving in Italy, with examples of signs and warnings we were likely to encounter.

Most hotels had a space or two for unloading the vehicle and then provided directions to a parking area a short distance from our lodgings. Directions often involved a map and X markings for areas that were restricted to cars.

I agree that your hotel should have provided this information and cautioned you about other restrictions you might encounter traveling in the vicinity of your lodgings.

We did see cars traveling in restricted areas - the occupants were lost and trying to find their way. The most memorable was a car that came down a narrow lane brimming with people enjoying al fresco dining. The driver was clearly confused and frustrated. He nearly took out several tables!

I wouldn't let the fines ruin your memories of the trip. My advice is to pay the fine and put it behind you in order to remember the trip as "one of my best vacations ever".

maxypants

I obviously should have spent more time on this forum before I made the trip so I would have known the danger of driving in a city center. You can be sure I will be careful on my next trip. I'm planning to send the hotel emails to the police and see if I can get it excused, can't hurt to try.
Now I'm just praying I don't get 10 more tickets! We were lost in many towns—in one we drove around in a circle at least 4 times trying to find the street for a hotel while the old Italian couple stood in their doorway and watched us go round and round.

DickPatterson

Ignorance of the law may not be a valid excuse in a court of law, but how about from a human standpoint? No one can know every detail of every law in every city they might visit. Sometimes people get lost, sometimes they make mistakes, sometimes the signs are obscured by tree limbs, sometimes people are forced to do things they don't want to do to avoid being hit by an Italian driver, ... Traffic police (and even judges) let people off with a warning all the time when they can consider the circumstances. What about the confused, frustrated driver portiaperu mentions? God only knows how many violation letters he'll receive in the mail over the next several years for making a wrong turn (which turned into many wrong turns), plus a 50 Euro charge from the rental car company for EACH photo the police request information for.

Even if your hotel has spaces for you to unload your car, they still have to file your information with the authorities. If they don't do it, you could end up on the wrong side of the law despite all your research and preparations. Why aren't these hotel owners/workers more attentive to this requirement? They know what's going to happen to their guests, but they don't care enough to take a couple of minutes to file the report. Oh, you say it's MY responsibility ("You are supposed to have your hotel report your luggage drop off (license number) to the police to avoid a ticket in restricted zones.")? What if they say they're going to do it but they actually don't? Am I supposed to stand over them and say, "Either your signature or your brains are going to be on that paper"?

If it's true that 86 per cent of these fines are collected from the Florentines and other Italians, why do the Florentines and other Italians continue to break the law? Can't they read the signs? Don't they care about their historic districts?

Many of you assume that the tourist traffic offenders didn't bother to acquaint themselves with the laws or just felt they could flout the law with impunity. But it seems to me that it's more likely that disrespect for and intentional disregard of the law is what's at work when an Italian driver commits the offense than when a tourist does it. Just think, if the Italian authorities would give the benefit of the doubt to tourists by refraining from sending violation notices internationally, and concentrate on the Florentines and other Italians who knowingly and willingly committed the offense, they could solve 86 per cent of the problem, and they could avoid sending the message that they'd rather have your traffic fine money now than your tourist dollars in a future trip.

PalenQ

Ignorance of the law may not be a valid excuse in a court of law, but how about from a human standpoint? No one can know every detail of every law in every city they might visit>

i agree and think Italian authorities should let's say dismiss the first one or two but then that would be a license for some folks in the know to abuse the grace.

logos999

Just don't pay and forget about it, nothing bad will happen. They threaten to enforce those tickets for motorists living in other EU coutries now, but the law is still not in effect. They can't force american drivers to pay if they're outside of Italy. Another 108€ saved. . Should you go back to Italy and the issue comes up (it won't) just deny everything.

altamiro

>Ignorance of the law may not be a valid excuse in a court of law, but how about from a human standpoint? No one can know every detail of every law in every city they might visit. Sometimes people get lost, sometimes they make mistakes, sometimes the signs are obscured by tree limbs, sometimes people are forced to do things they don't want to do to avoid being hit by an Italian driver, ...

And sometimes people just say they did anything of the above, and in reality simply didn't bother/didn't care/hoped there is no camera on the way. Not that maxypants did anything of the above - but how is the police to find out? Let all foreign tourists generally off the hook? No, sorry, that doesn't work.

PalenQ, I would rather do it the other way round. Make people doing this mistake pay for it, but once. Not for every time they passed by camera, but just once for the mistake. I understand why you have to pay a fine for a traffic violation. But if you drove past two cameras close together, it is still a result on ONE error.

Zerlina

To a few of your points:
1. "No one can know every detail of every law in every city they might visit." The ZTL signs are the same throughout Italy. The areas they apply to differ, but that's why the signs are there.
2. "What about the confused, frustrated driver portiaperu mentions?" He will not receive tickets "over the next several years". The municipality has a year from receiving the driver information to send a ticket. I don't know how long the agency has to reply to the police request, but I doubt that it's more than a year. Also, it has been reliably reported that when several violations occur within a short time, the authorities are prepared to reduce the violations to only one.
3. "why do the Florentines and other Italians continue to break the law?" Why does anyone anywhere commit traffic violations? It's not unique to Florence or Italy.
4. "if the Italian authorities would give the benefit of the doubt to tourists ... and concentrate on the Florentines and other Italians who knowingly and willingly committed the offense, they could solve 86 per cent of the problem." How long do you think it would take to get out that tourists can flout the law with impunity and what do you think that would do to preserve the historic centers or to ensure that laws apply equally to everyone, surely a principle that all democracies adhere to? And why do you think concentrating on the Florentines and other Italians would solve 86% of the problem? See above: People everywhere commit traffic offenses, and fines have never stopped them, anywhere.

Cowboy1968

I'd spend a few minutes to google the traffic laws when I go to another country.

Most signage is standardized in Europe, so when you know that the round sign with red border means "No entry for motorized traffic" in any town between Oslo and Palermo, you will save yourself lots of troubles in the future.

http://www.ateneonline-aol.it/img/ztl_a_grande.jpg

The exceptions, inclusions, and exclusions will probably make everyone not fluent in Italian dizzy, but one item you can cleary identify is the round red/white sign.
Whenever you see it, you are not supposed to enter with a motorized vehicle - unless you are really, really sure that you qualify for an exemption of the rule,
like on this street in France:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1040/...6d1b55.jpg?v=0
Or on this street in Germany:
http://www.spassfieber.de/funpics/fr...ierabholer.jpg

logos999

http://www.ateneonline-aol.it/img/ztl_a_grande.jpg

Now if I drive an Euro4 like everybody else, am I allwed to enter before 8pm?? Reading the sign, I can't tell.

logos999

Having looked up "divieto" I conlude it's leagal anytime to enter the zone at any time with a car weighing less than 3.5 tons. Who would have guessed. But then what does "fuori provincia PA mean?". The momnet they enforce those fines, you'll see a lot of unhappy German drivers.

Cowboy1968

This was just a random sign I found on the web. I assume it's somewhere on Sicily.

My guess would be:

ZTL Zone A
No entry between 8am and 8pm
Prohibition valid for
- petrol/diesel powered vehicles Euro0-2
- ANY vehicle from outside province Palermo (i.e. no PA car registration)

Exempt are:
- residents of Zone A
- authorized .. hum, no clue
And probably something concerning deliveries during the times given on last sign.

So, with your Euro4 car with Munich registration, you would only be allowed to enter after 8pm or before 8am... I guess. I'd stop right there and call the hotel ;-)