logos999, I think your card must be one that has the "chip" in it. I cannot use my ATM card anywhere in the U.S. without using a PIN. ((b))

bookmarking...

There has been a whole stink about this debit card/ATM card business in the USA and a recent lawsuit settled by Wal-Mart and other retailers.

To make a long story short, when you present a debit card (visa or mastercard logo as well as cirrus or plus) one used to have ahoice...use it with a pin in which case it clears through the merchant's debit card transaction account or sign it as if it was a credit card in which case it cleared through the merchant's credit card account....transactions through the debit card transaction account were cheaper for the merchant but visa/mastercard used to have a rule that merchants that accept visa/mastercard must accept all visa/mastercard cards as credit card transactions....the settlement basically gave merchants the right not to have to clear a debit card transaction through the credit card system if they so desired and wal-mart has so desired...therefore if you present a visa or mastercard debit card at a wal-mart (and many other retailers) it must go through as a debit card transaction and a pin is required...visa/mastercard were required to make it clear on the card whether it is a debit card or a credit card (the distinctions sometimes blur...for example many brokerage house accounts come with a "credit" card which is really a debit card except for the fact the transactions clear only at the end of the month (at leat the purchases do; cash advances clear immediately)...are they debit cards? or are they credit cards?

Debit cards used to make purchases are, IMHO, silly. Why have them immediately pull the money out of your account....pay the bill once a month and if your timing is correct, you can get as much as a 60 day float on the money..

In addition the big danger of debit cards is what happens if some of these Eastern European or Nigerian vermin running the credit card number theft rings of which there are many accomplices throughout the world who walk around with these little pocket terminals and steal credit card numbers, steal the number of a debit card. If it is a credit card, so what...they run up big bills...a letter or two to the credit card company usually clears the matter up and while a trifle inconvenient waiting for a new card to be issued and having to change all the monthly transactions you set up to go automatically through the cards such as utility bills, mobile bills ahtever, it's over and done with.

OTOH if they steal a debit card number, they can empty your checking account in a few moments and while for the most part they will give you back the money, any checks currently in transit immediately turn to rubber and you are physically out the money while the matter if being rectified which may take a week to a month! In that time, how do you pay the rent?

Just don't see the sense ot using debit cards as credit card transactions while on an extended holiday for that reason among others.

XYZ- I suspect that one reason people prefer debit over credit card is the spate of charges imposed by many credit card issuers that do not apply with a debit card. As mentioned above, many financial institutions are now increasing charges for debit card use so the point may become moot.

Logos: Last I checked (about a year ago) my ATM card does NOT work without a PIN in the US. Maybe it's because of the Cirrus/Maestro thing? Mine doesn't have that. It's only NYCE and PLUS.

>Debit cards used to make purchases
Yes, that's the way it is done traditionally in Europe and other countries. One reason nobody wanted or needed credit cards. The system works like that for dacades now, banking cards (Maestro/Cirrus) can be used with only signing, just like a credit card. (No Visa logo on them) Looks like in the US you'd actually have to use a PIN?! I buy something abroad, sign and a few minutes later it will show up as paid on my banking account. And no, no chip on that card. It's the "traditional" way of paying by card in most countries and across borders, so thats why I'm a bit "irritated" by some statements made here. :-)

>Maybe it's because of the Cirrus/Maestro thing?
That may be the reason. All my banking cards have Maestro. Banks here have to state how much it costs using the debit card abroad to pay for things. It's usually less than when using a credit card.

I totally agree with xyz. There are basically three types of cards:
1. Credit card
2. ATM card
3. Debit card

Credit cards send a monthly bill, charges can be disputed within 60 days (I think that's the limit), and if you pay the bill off prior to the due date you've gotten a free loan for 30-60 days, depending on when you made the various charges. Plus, if you have the right type of card you can get airline miles, cash rebates, etc.

ATM cards have no Visa or MC logo, must be used with a PIN, and deduct money from your bank account immediately. They also have a daily withdrawal limit imposed by the issuing bank.

Debit cards (sometimes called fake Visas or fake Mastercards) are a sort of hybrid. They can be used to get cash at ATM machines with a PIN, but can also be used to make purchases anywhere Visa and MC are excepted. But...the money comes out of your account immediately and if it is stolen your account can be wiped out since a PIN is not required for the purchase. Fraud with a stolen debit card is much more difficult to resolve than with a stolen credit card.

I may have missed some of the nuances of the debit card because I refuse to have one. I'm also not familiar with differences that might exist with European cards.

You might want to check this link...http://clarkhoward.com/. This guy is local in Atlanta and has a syndicated radio show that deals with consumer issues and problems. He also discusses travel deals every Friday. He hates fake Visas!

Good description from Deb, but I have one exception. After having some issues recently with more European bank ATMs NOT working on a non-Visa or MC affiliated ATM card, I had the bank re-issue it as a DEBIT/ATM so I won't have that problem in the future.

And my bank has assured me there's no risk of my account being "wiped out" as they credit back for any unauthorized use of the card, just like with a credit card-- although I don't want to personally find out how successful that might be.

Patrick, I have an account with BofA and contacted them. They assured me that they will immediately refund to my checking account any funds that were fraudulently taken out of my account if someone got a hold of my debit card number and wiped out my checking account using the Visa/Mastercard portion. My Commerce Bank won't do that -- it would take 5-7 days and who knows how much paperwork I would have to fill out to get the funds returned.

Having said that, imagine the surprise of going to an ATM machine in Florence with a BofA debit card to withdraw 200 Euros, and the transaction is rejected because there are no funds in the account as someone wiped it out having stolen the Visa/M/C account number.

Yeah, call BofA and try to get it fixed from over in Europe -- I wouldn't like the hassle or the surprise. :-) ((b))

This is in reference to the 1% another poster stated was the amount charged above the bank buying rate by BofA. I spoke with BofA yesterday and they quoted me 3% above the rate. BIG difference!
They do have ATM's in many countries that have no transaction fee, however.

This has been a most interesting thread.

My main bank is Chase and just last week I received a notice re more fees, charges.

Last summer, for summer reason my Chase ATM card did not work at all in Italy, even though I had called to tell them where we were going, etc. and I had used the card on previous trips to Italy. Anyway, we ended up using our spare ATM card which is from a credit union. When we got home and got the statement, the fees were so much less than they are usally with Chase. I was amazed.

So we decided that we would always transfer extra funds into the credit union account before we go on vacation abroad and use the Chase card as our back up.

We always bring an ATM card for another account when we travel as a just in case measure. Last summer was the first time that it paid off. I suppose if we hadn't had the other card, I would have spent time calling Chase and it likely would have worked out, but we saved ourselves quite a hassle (and money) by carrying an extra card.

Commerce Bank sounds great though and we were thinking of getting a new local bank. Someone I think posted that they give you back the transaction fees? Does this mean if you use your Commerce ATM card at say Bank of America and BOA charges you $2 to access cash, Commerce will reimburse the $2? If that's right - that's fantastic! And I think I really do need to make the switch.

Sally

The above is now the third recent claim that BofA is now charging 3%, not 1% on foreign ATM withdrawals. I can assure you that was not the case this past summer as I did quite a few of them during two and a half months over there.

I emailed from my BofA website asking for the full details. I got a receipt almost immediately saying they had my email and would reply. The next day I got an email from BofA saying that they could not respond to the question as they had no way of knowing via email if I were an account holder or not, but to resend it via my online account once I had logged in. Huh? That's exactly how I did the first one. Can we say they seem to be avoiding the issue?

And by the way, BofA has no "partner" ATMs in Italy, which is a major issue for me as that's where I need the bulk of my cash for apartments.

>"partner" ATMs in Italy
http://www.deutsche-bank.it/pbc/index.html

logos, while Deutschebank is a partner bank with BofA, the no fee rule only applies to using their facilities in Germany. When you use a Deutschebank ATM in Italy, BofA does add the appropriate fee. And Deutschebanks in Rome is where I learned that at BofA ATM only card will no longer work (as of last summer -- but they did before). The card must also be a debit card with a "connection" to Master Card or Visa, as all Deutschebank ATM withdrawals in Italy are handled by Visa Services.

The partner bank thing is also true of other banks. The no fee rule only applies when using the bank in its "home" country -- not other countries. For example, I also found that BofA charges a fee for ATM withdrawals from BNP banks in Spain, but not in France.

<The no fee rule only applies when using the bank in its "home" country -- not other countries.
Deutsche Bank explicitly! claims the opposite on its webpage. So BoA must be the excetion to the rule?
35.000 ATMs in 32 countries are free of charge, even exotic countries like Tanzania are included in the alliance using Barkleys ATMs. And of course italian ATMs. You may need to change your bank ;-)

I'd be happy to change my bank if you can find me one locally that provides all the free services I get from BofA. The fact that they don't have a partner bank in Italy and I only get two free withdrawals per month in Italy (due to my BofA account) is hardly a reason to switch banks.

Meanwhile you're looking at what Deutschebank gives its customers not the other way around. Did it even specifically say that they don't charge their Italian customers withdrawing from a BofA in the US? I'd be curious, but I bet that's very doubtful.

And Deutschebank has only said on their website that THEY don't charge. They don't. What does that have to do with what their partner banks do with their own customers?

This page has some pretty good info on the subject.

http://www.flyertalk.com/wiki/index....reign_Exchange

>Did it even specifically say that they don't charge their Italian customers withdrawing from a BofA in the US?
That's an interesting question. Maybe someone here, who speaks italian can tell?

Interesting link, TravMimi, but I suspect as rapidly changing as all this is, some of those statistics are already outdated. Meanwhile it was especially interesting that for the figures on BofA it specifically says that the fee-free withdrawals from partner banks are only good in their "home" country.

I also really liked some of the question marks after a few of the quoted 1% fees, like no one knows for sure -- and probably no one does!