Venting, transportation/England, France
 

I didn't think I was really up to planning an independent family vacation, and I'm beginning to realize my doubts were spot-on, and I probably should have just booked a tour, added a couple days to travel on our own, and been done with it.

We are a family of 4, planning a September/October trip (12-14 days) to London, Yorkshire and Paris. We have passports, airfare and hotel accommodations -- which in itself has been an immense and exhausting frustration.

Now I'm down to rail transportation, which I *cannot* seem to figure out (why can't they be as organized as the Germans?). Yes, I realize it's now quite late in the game, but when your job unexpectedly turns into 12-hour days, 6-day work weeks for two months straight -- and likely to continue up until the day of departure -- and no one else in the family has ever planned a vacation or traveled outside the U.S., there are very few options.

$600 to go round-trip on the Chunnel from London to Paris? Yikes!

And England travel ... I can't even begin to decipher it. National rail, regional rail, Tube, bus, travel cards, what makes sense, what doesn't. Egad. There seem to be hundreds of opinions and suggestions.

I've plowed through threads here. I've trudged through all the websites. Half the time, the websites don't even work. One thread said to go through SGNF instead of Eurostar to save money ... except that it's in French, so no dice there, back to square one.

Does anyone know of an independent tour that might be able to get negotiated train travel rates or fill in the holes of our now-tattered vacation plans? In desperation I contacted a local tour agent who pretty much refused to do anything other than arrange a textbook full-service tour at roughly double the costs I'd already gotten for airfare. I hunted for "independent tour expert" for my area and the Google search sent me right back to that very travel agency as being the top-notch local authority.

***frustrated***

So now I feel like we're really stuck, with some arrangements we can't back out of, but these arrangements make it impossible to hook up with a tour that might solve our dilemma.

Help! And thanking you in advance for putting up with such a snarky post!

I feel for you. Is there anything you can simplify? Even if it costs some non-refundable deposits. It would be better to have a trip that covers just two or three places than no trip at all. Even is you don't see all the must-sees, you and the family can have a wonderful trip. And those that are missed be the basis for up-coming dreams.

OK - relax. Things aren't that bad. You seem to be is a bit of a panic and there is no need.

First of all -are you doing things in the order you said . . . London > Yorkshire > Paris? If so,the Eurostar may not ne your best bet. You'd have to return to London (granted, to Kings Cross which is next door to St Pancras). But if you are up in Yorkshire - you can fly from Leeds to Paris w/o having to go back to London.

Are you renting a car for Yorkshire?

(Your London transport - tube/Oyster/travelcards is easy peasy and not related to the train to Yorkshire. You don't need to pre-plan/pre-purchase transport for London)

<i>
$600 to go round-trip on the Chunnel from London to Paris? Yikes!</i>

That's $150 RT per person if you are giving us a total cost for four. Check to see if Ryanair is cheaper, but I think you'll discover that with the cost of going to and from the various airports and all the added fees, the train is more convenient and about the same price.

"<i>but I think you'll discover that with the cost of going to and from the various airports and all the added fees, the train is more convenient and about the same price.</i>"

IF - you are traveling from central London, then yes Eurostar is definitely more convenient and probably cheaper. But not necessarily if you are traveling from Yorkshire.

But you may have left things too late to get the best train OR air fares.

I feel your pain/stress. What holes/transportation are you trying to fill? Planned itinerary?

There is usually an inverse relationship between the price vs. research and the lead time.

If you want low prices, you usually need a long lead time to research and snatch advance tickets. Except for rush hour travels, you can buy trains to most major destinations at last minutes without much research if you are willing to pay the full non-discounted prices.

Most trip advices assume you are in the former group: have lead time and willing to spend research time in order to snatch the low cost tickets.

I think you are more in the latter category. If you follow so called how-to-find-low-cost-tickets, you would find dead ends for long distance train tickets.

I think you gain sanity by partitioning the task. You have perhaps 5 tasks. You are dealing with different operational entities.

1. inside London. This is a city transit and you probably want some kind of Oyster card. Unfortunately, it is quite a chore to decipher which one. If you post how long you are staying London, where you are going, whether you can travel post rush hours, etc, there are many very knowledgeable people here to recommend a relevant card.
2. between UK cities. If you don't want to figure out, some kind of Britrail simplifies your task. This is probably not the cheapest. There are also many UK train experts here who can recommend relevant pass / point tickets if you post where you are going.
3. Yorkshire: depending on what this means, you might actually need a car.
4. Paris and back: Eurostar is the most straightforward and actually simple to choose since it has a monopoly position. Fares go up steeply as you approach the departure date. Unfortunately, you have to deal with this. You probably need to pay 1.5x-2x the best price at this point.
5. inside Paris: depending on you usage model, stacks of one-trip tickets (carnet) is usually what you need for a fraction of week stay. No need to do anything until you get to Paris.

Before you long for simplicity, consider Swisspass in Switzerland. It covers all the federal rail trains, most boats, museums, and city transits. Simple? yes. But it is a very very expensive pass.

Trains within Britain: www.nationalrail.co.uk. Cheapest fares for 2 adults and two children from London to Leeds on 20 September: £67.80

Trains London-Paris: www.surostar.com. One way London-Paris, 20 September. Cheapest fare for 2 adults and 2 children under 11: £211 if you travel at silly a.m., £248 around lunchtime/early afternoon (tickets going fast - it is a popular time of year to visit Paris), rising to £300+ if you travel at peak times for business travellers. Yes, that is what it costs.

For planes: www.skyscanner.net

What arrangements are you committed to, and what would you like to fit in?

<i>Now I'm down to rail transportation, which I *cannot* seem to figure out (why can't they be as organized as the Germans?).</i>

Back in the days when all the trains were operated by British Rail, and before the internet, life was a lot simpler. Then, all you had to do was walk up the the ticket window and buy your ticket. I must confess I don't use the trains anymore, preferring to drive instead. With a family of four it would probably be a lot more economical to use bus/tube in London and hire (rent) a car for your trip to Yorkshire.

The $600 (about £380) for a family of four to travel round-trip from the centre of London to the centre of Paris doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. :-)

"Back in the days when all the trains were operated by British Rail, and before the internet, life was a lot simpler. "

Now real investment in going into Britain's railways, you simply go to www.nationalrail.co.uk, look at whether an Anytime, off-peak or advance ticket suits your needs and buy the one that suits you. No need even to walk up to a ticket window. Where, incidentally, the range of fares under state ownership was broadly identical to the range today.

Doesn't sound remotely "disorganised" to me.

flanneruk said, as is often the case, what I would have said. This is not a hard problem, certainly no harder than making a three city airline reservation in the US when all three cities are not served by one airline.

Not sure how many trains you are planning on taking in England but check into the BritEngland Railpass if your family includes kids under 16 they each get a free pass to match what the adults buy - and if they are over 15 then the Party Pass allows the 3rd and 4th person to get a pass at half-price of what the first two pay - passes let you hop on any train anytime - no restrictions and such flexible tickets can cost a fortune - but if just say going to York and back then it is easy enough to book online advance tickets - restricted however to a specific train and non-changeable and to secure as they are sold in limited numbers weeks in advance.

so check www.nationalrail.co.uk to see what fares are available and then compare to the pass - if at all close go for the pass as it makes things so easy - just show up and hop on the train. check out these superb IMO sites for lots of great stuff on British trains and passes: http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/id11.html; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com (click on the commercial link on this site to RailEurope USA to get BritRail England prices and if buying a pass book thru this site to give Man in Seat 61 IMO a well-deserved commission.

We should get G4s to run the railway. Rail privitisation was deadly - we had to buy back the track providers (network rail) because so many people were dying in rail crashes. Prices in the UK are now astronomical and rising. Take the bus?

There is a bit of "noise" here and the OP just wants to know how to get around not understand the politics of rail privatisation and not too many options. Breath....

Calmly then, Patrick London is on the ball and has the key three links you need. But I think the link may be eurostar.com due to a typo

Within Paris and London there are also city based underground, overground trains, bikes and buses.

If that is not enough then Mike at seat61.com can put you right if anyone can.

Why aren't we like the Germans?.... perhaps another thread...

I seem to remember people suggesting you delete the Eurostar.com cookie if you're in the US, and tell it you're in the UK, in case that gives you cheaper fares: but I'm not sure if I've remembered it right, or whether it makes much of a difference.

Tell us where you're staying on what dates and we can help. When do you fly in and out and where from?

$600 to go round-trip on the Chunnel from London to Paris? Yikes!>

Why go round trip - why not fly open jaw - into London and say out of Paris or Amsterdam or Frankfurt - why necessitate a perhaps expensive return to London?

Thank you, everyone.

My big hang-up was London --> Paris --> Thirsk transportation.

I got one-way tickets from London to Paris (Eurostar) for $400.

It would be cheaper (and so much faster) to fly from Paris to Leeds, rather than take Eurostar back to London and then the train from London to Thirsk.

However, flying is a hassle, too. I cannot find anywhere how I would get from LBA to Thirsk by train. Noplace seems to say whether there is a train station at the airport or an easy way to get to the train station. I suppose ... a cab? I just don't know.

And without knowing the distances, I can't really book tickets, because I don't know how much time to allow from plane arrival to train departure.

We were planning to rent a car to drive around Thirsk/Yorkshire, but then that's a problem, too. I can't tell whether we can get a car at the Thirsk train station, or if we're in walking distance of our B&B from the train station, or if we'd just be better off driving from LBA to Thirsk.

Husband is intimidated about driving very far and wants to limit the driving just to back country roads of Thirsk/Yorkshire -- does NOT want to drive from LBA to Thirsk.

So ... this segment remains a puzzle. Once I somehow figure this out (which has already taken several hours with no resolution), then I can start trudging through the rest of the train travel issues (Heathrow to London, London to our apartment and back as needed) and our day trip to Stonehenge --> which I think *will* be a pre-arranged tour, assuming I can find a convenient pick-up/drop-off point.

Ideas? Thank you ... and please accept my apologies for sounding so whiney. I've been to Europe, but always by myself, never with a family. I didn't realize how very much this complicates things.

Kandace

"<i>and please accept my apologies for sounding so whiney</i>"

You don't sound whiney . . . but very confused. :) You have set out a plan w/o first finding out what is possible/practical.

"<i>Husband is intimidated about driving very far and wants to limit the driving just to back country roads of Thirsk/Yorkshire -- does NOT want to drive from LBA to Thirsk.</i>"

I'm not surprised you are having a hard/confusing time of it. You are are sort of trying to fit a round peg in a square hole and complicating things more than necessary.

Thirsk is quite a small town, it will be easier IMO to initially get used to the car/driving from the airport instead of on very narrow rural roads.

Why are you doing this London > Paris > Thirsk?

Where are you flying into and home from?

Seems like renting the car from Leeds is really your best option. If husband is intimidated, then you drive, and he can navigate. It looks like the Leeds-Bradford airport is outside of Leeds, so driving from there won't be quite as difficult as from, for example, the center of Leeds. And then, you'd have the car available for journeying around Yorkshire.

Or, if you'd rather take the train, use the national rail link given above. I entered Leeds-Bradford airport and Thirk and a random day of travel. It looks like trains run between the two, with mostly just one change, every 1/2 hour or hour, depending on the time of day. As for the distance between the train station and your B&B, use Google maps to find that out. And/or ask your B&B.

To simplify your trip a bit, have you considered dropping the Thirsk portion, and extending your stays in the big cities? You could always do day trips from either location if you like (though that brings you back into the realm of figuring out the trains).

Take a deep breath, and remind yourself of all the planning you've gotten done already. You only have a couple more items that you have to do!

www.transportdirect.info might help. You can enter different options for mode of transport.

LBA is a long way outside Leeds, it doesn't have a train station but bus services to various places including Leeds. Thirsk Station is outside Thirsk and would probably mean a long walk or a taxi ride to the B&B.

The best option from LBA is to hire a car as it's a simple drive to Thirsk.

Don't get disheartened, its will all be fine. I may be wrong or it may have changed since I was there last as long as you don't book and pay on the day the rail trips aren't as expensive. Picking up your tickets is easy too, they will issue you with a number which you enter into the machine at the station in UK. Driving in the UK isn't really that difficult either, what we do( and this might seem over organised to some!!!) to minimise the stress is take our own GPS with UK already downloaded and programmed to where you want to go. This means you are already familiar with the GPS, and your destinations before you go. Have seen people go to pick up car with GPS and told they don't have one. You can involve the children in destinations and finding out distances to accommodation and attractions using google maps, then everyone has an idea where you are going and the stress isn't all the drivers. Don't let the organisation of your holiday overshadow your enjoyment of going, we always say the more work we do beforehand the less worry when we get there!! Best wishes.

You will probably find that residents of Thirsk who have a flight from Leeds/Bradford use a car service for the journey. Google lists several taxi firms in Thirsk, and they all offer an airport service. You will have to ask for a quote, as none quote a fixed price.

A local Thirsk firm will know the best way between Thirsk and the airport, the best way to meet you, and will know your address in Thirsk.

Hi Kandace_York

" how I would get from LBA to Thirsk by train".

Leeds Bradford Airport doesn't have a railway station. Travel to and from the airport can be found here http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.u...to-the-airport

To Thirsk, get a bus (757) or taxi from the airport to Leeds rail station. Then a train to Thirsk. Train times and prices can be found here http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servic...journey/search.

Once at Thirsk you then have the problem of getting to your accommodation. Thirsk is a very small station on the east coast mainline with very few facilities. There are is no car hire and quite possibly no waiting taxis. Though you can likely phone for a taxi to collect you.

This will take about two to three hours (carrying luggage, while looking after children,.. and husband). A tad stressful….

Far, far simpler is to hire a car at the airport. Use 'Get Directions" in google maps to overview the route - about 45 minutes. https://maps.google.co.uk/ (this also shows where the train station is relative to the town. Put your accommodation's post code in to see where that is).

The route takes you out of the airport, away from the urban area and through Yorkshire to Thirsk. You then have your hire car for exploring Yorkshire. Driving from the airport is a no brainer. Your problem is convincing your husband - good luck on that!

Yes, you could get a taxi from Thirsk to collect you from the airport, but then what? You'll have no hire car to get around.

It might help if I describe what the roads are like near LBA (basically I live very near there). The airport is modern and sits on the side on an industrial area but by being north of Leeds is very rural with just local roads all around. Yes there are roundabouts but only one dual one, but given the very low levels of traffic you could do it in your sleep.

The road to Thirsk could go up the A1 but there is no need to do so and most of the way there can be done on minor roads with the odd bit of underused dual carriageway thrown in. Basically compared to anyother airport and journey in the South of the UK near an airport this is a walk in the park.

If the drive has more fears have a look at LBA on street view

Now I'm a non-UK resident I recently bought a Britrail pass for the first time for a trip back, and was very pleased with it. It was good value and I liked having the flexibility to get on any train. I bought the flexible one which allows any 4 days travel in a calendar month, for England only, but there are lots of other options. It doesn't cover the Eurostar or the London tube but it does cover the London airport express trains. So it may be a cheaper option for the British part of your trip. http://www.britrail.com/passes/britrail-pass

Did PalenQ take over Caroline's screen name? :D

caroline is selling snake oil too?

flanneruk's snake oil can be very good in spite of his bromides that all British railpasses are total ripoffs - snake oil!

For our first experience driving in the UK, we found driving on the freeway/motorway easier than on smaller roads. Fewer options, no side traffic, no roundabouts, and wider shoulders/verges. So a restful interlude on the A1 might be desireable.

From mapping sites like Google Maps, you can print detailed driving instructions right to your destination in Thirsk.

indy_dad, very good :-)

PalQ, I do owe a big thank you! I'd obviously absorbed what you'd written over the years about the Britrail passes and can now put it to good use. IME nobody in Britain has heard of them so I wouldn't have known otherwise.

In case anyone's interested, I started pricing individual rail fares for my 5 day trip with my first leg, Gatwick-Sheffield, which (without being able to guarantee I'd catch a particular train) was £110. Britrail flexible England pass for any 4 days in the month - E159. No contest. And 2 examples of the advantages of its flexibility - 1) I got to St Pancras 5 mins before 1 train left but thought it might be crowded by then and I'd feel rushed trying to find a nice seat, so I just waited for the next one in half an hour; 2) it was a bonus being able to leave Guildford for London in the rush hour instead of having to wait until after 9.30 or whatever for a cheaper ticket. So thanks agin, PalQ!

thank you caroline for the thanks! I do think some folk like flanneruk, who routinely castigates me for any mention of a BritRail Pass, calling them a total rip-off and me of selling snake oil - those types just have not taken a close look at the benefits of these passes - especially if wanting flexbility - how many times have I on day trips hopped off at say York and then when I was all done just went back to the station and hopped on the next train. Priceless and if doing several trips the passes can be cost effective even if compared to the discounted tickets that may also not always be available.