Ventimiglia
 

Apart from the market day mentioned on other posts, what has Ventimiglia got going for it? Because of a French rail strike I was forced to overnight there in 1978 before continuing to Nice early next day and all I can remember are the stillness and beautiful hues of the Mediterranean dawn. Would Ventimiglia be a relatively low key but still very accessible alternative to other more fancied spots on either side of the French/ Italian border for those looking for that kind of place?

I've been to Ventimiglia twice and both times could not get out of the place fast enough. A far better plan is to stay at Menton. Lovely seaside French border town; beautiful, great restaurants, good apartments/lodging, clean, and safe.

Somebody posted the name of a village up from Ventimiglia that looked like an outstanding alternative for a stay in that area and very good value. I never found the post again, but did checked the weblink he posted and it looked tops. Can anybody help in the context of this poster's inquiry? :-)

Bordighera on the Italian side is considered to be one of the nicest towns near the French border, and it is low key and undertouristed. Between Genova and the French border there are in fact lots of seaside Italian towns that most foreign tourists never visit but which have marvelous food and beautiful historic structures. Some of them also have a lot of modern condo/hotels and there are some indutstiral ports and power plants.

If you are looking to stay out of the tourist scrum, these places, including Ventimiglia, can make for a fascinating vacation. But not every corner of them is pretty.

Think, too, what you want to eat. The minute you cross the border into Italy, you'll be eating Italian food. Ventimiglia may allow more French into its cooking, however.

To me, Menton is just okay. Food is good, but it has something of a retirement home feel and lot of 70s apartment buildings. I felt like I was in Florida or SoCal. The Italian Rivera is poorer than the French Riviera, but it's often more fun and romantic. (I do love Nice, however).

Many thanks Viajero2 and fall06. I'll keep Bordighera in mind.

Just to add our thoughts - we went thru Ventimiglia (we changed trains). I would agree with Viajero2 -- it seemed like a place where you would NOT want to stay very long!

'But why Ventimiglia?' - that's the question New Zealander Carolyn McKenzie asks in <i>Portraits of the Riviera</i>, her engaging and informative account of renovating an apartment in medieval Ventimiglia Alta and her ramblings around the region (in Italy and France). For coastal Liguria she rates traffic-free Cervo as 'perhaps the prettiest and liveliest of all the coastal destinations'.

Sorry to rain on another parade, but we've been in Bordighera twice (stayed once) and still cannot find the charm there either. OTOH we spent a week in Menton, using it as a base to explore some of the French Riviera and the mountainous area north of Menton, and loved both Menton and the day trips we took from there. Saorge, Tende and the river valley they are on, couldn't be lovelier but be warned there are plenty of hairpin curves on the way.

Whether one likes the Italian Riviera or the French Riviera seems to be one of those subjective calls that divides the planet. I don't expect people to change their stripes. There a many parts of France and French culture that I enjoy, or at least used to enjoy, but on the whole I find Italian culture (and Italian food) more to my liking.

The appeal of historic border towns like Ventimiglia (Port Bou on the cusp of the French/Spanish border also springs to mind) or Bordighera is hard to explain if there isn't a fundamental predisposition to feel more at home in shifty, shifting places than those with a firmly anchored identity. Menton decisively threw over its Italian heritage in favor of being middle-class French. I find it less interesting than other more confused places.

Cervo is picture postcard pretty, with great food, enough to attract a lot French, in fact.

Here is a picture of Ventimiglia Alta:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DX%26um%3D1

Bordighera used to be the site of the International European film festival, which was later moved to Cannes during the time the Fascists ruled Italy. Here is a picture of the Grand Hotel Angst in Bordighera, which fell into permanent disuse and disgrace after the Fascists commandeered it for a prison:

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/7922868.jpg

And the sunnier side of Bordighera, beloved and often painted by Monet:

http://www.italianrivieraproperties....20Panorama.jpg

stunning cervo in liguria

http://www.marilenaperego.it/wp-cont...5/p3292509.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...n_giovanni.jpg

I didn't even like the market in Ventimiglia. And I am a market maven. I'm sure there's something positive about Ventimiglia (probably some sort of authenticity thing), but I've never seen it. Even San Remo has more charm, and SR is the ultimate shabby-chic destination IME.

I do agree about Italian food, though. Diehard francophile that I am, I do prefer Italian food.

having seen both sides of the border, I would rather stay in Menton than the Italian side ( Liguria)

The Ventimiglia market does have its fans

http://countryepicure.wordpress.com/...miglia-market/

...including photographers who live in Menton!

http://menton-daily-photo.blogspot.c...%20Ventimiglia

also

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chezpim/sets/1344450/

http://c2r4a1.blogspot.com/2006/07/v...06-friday.html

http://super-ev.travellerspoint.com/7/

The thing about the Riviera is that it is painfully obvious that France had a better economy than Italy for many decades, and the evidence is in the "poorer" and less attractive Italian towns along the Med. One can argue for the France or the Italian side, but the differences are still very much apparent. Ventimiglia for most visitors is a quagmire of bad traffic, ugly scenery, and just "cheap" scenery. It's so obvious - the change in what the average person has to look at, once you cross the border into Italy. It's not a value judgment, it's just so plain to see. Italy was a much poorer country for a very long time and it shows.

They still have better food.:)

Are there any pretty seaside towns (other than Cervo) between Genoa and the border that would make a good base for exploring that part of Liguria?

Bookmarking as I search for the town with the best of both countries...

Again, there is nothing to argue about. How individual people to react to the wealth of a place is as much a part of travel planning as anyplace else. Monaco gets as many negative reviews from visitors as Ventimiglia does. It is a value judgment, what you are describing as the typical reaction to the Italian Riviera. I'm not saying visitors shouldn't apply their values or make judgemets. Rather, I'm suggesting that one of the more interesting parts of being a visitor to a different country is finding out why one has the reactions one does. But if you only want to be in places that have a certain value, nobody should make you vacation elsewhere. You won't enjoy it.

Also, I may be less sensitive, or you may be exaggerating, but the less-affluent economy of the Italian Riviera hardly induces -- at least in me -- a feeling a painful poverty. It's really no different than many, many unaffluent parts of Nice. Or Marseilles. (Except, as you point out, the food is better!)

Had the affluence of France been used to preserve more of the historic character of the French Riviera, I would find the French Riviera as attractive a destination as I do the Italian Riviera. But instead something else took over. But admittedly, it's easier to get around. (And truth be told, the pastries are better.)

ekscrunchy and TDudette,

Are you familiar with these websites:

http://www.visitrivieradeifiori.it/d...aspx?tabid=979

http://www.blumenriviera.com/Italy/I...guide_Liguria/

http://www.rivieradeifiori.net/cartina.asp

http://www.rivieradeifiori.com/rivieraligure/

http://www.italy-farmholidays.com/agriturismo/liguria/

And you can use the search features of this website to locate wineries with accommodations in the province of Imperia, some of which are quite close to the sea, although the mountains can be just as nice

http://www.vinogusto.com/en/wineplaces

You can also use these website to search for places to stay on olive farms in Imperia. Olives are more important to the region than wine:

http://en.agriturismo.com/liguria/index.asp#agriturismo

http://www.organicholidays.co.uk/Area/Italy/Liguria.htm

http://www.agriturismoinliguria.com/...ovincia-im.php

TDudette,

You might find this interesting

http://www.torri-superiore.org/index...benvenuto&l=en

Just to show that my thinking isn't simplistic, I'll add that I am not at all a fan of the French Riviera and I absolutely loathe Monaco. It's not about poverty as opposed to wealth for me at all. It's in large part about what's pleasing to the eye, and the measure of pleasantness just starts to tank after you pass the French border into Italy in that region.

Bordighera would be my choice as well (try Hotel Piccolo Lido or Villa Elisa), but you can make a nice day trip to the gorgeous Hanbury Gardens just outside Ventimiglia.

Wow, steps, thanks. Will take a look but must go work on some leaves.

I hear what St. Cirq is saying though.

Just to add my own two bits (or more as the muse may come as I write!), I can't say much about Ventimiglia as I have never been that far west on the Liguria Ponente, sometimes called the Italian Riviera for Francophiles. I don't know the French Riviera towns at all, although my sense tells me that they are probably overbuilt and I have seen pictures of huge condo developments that don't look charming at all.But I don't where this "poverty" bit comes from, the entire stretch from Genoa to Ventemiglia is dotted with little resort towns, some very charming, some less well known then others. I actually prefer this part of Liguria to the Levante section between Genoa and La Spezia (which includes Cinque Terre). I find towns like Camogli and Sestri Levante too built up on the beach, actually not many beaches on the Levante side at all. On the Ponente side I don't care for the stretch between Genoa and Savona, but then there are a whole string of pretty beach towns, to mention a few: Noli (my favourite, an old maritime republic), Varigotti (resort town with supposedly one of the best beaches in Italy), Albenga (an old Roman town), Alassio (very popular resort town), Diano Marina, and on the other side of Imperia, San Remo - probably the trendiest town and close to the border for the OP. One of these days I want to visit Dolceacqua in the hills behind Ventemiglia as its supposed to be one of the best wine areas in Liguria with a good red.

Oh and BTW I much prefer Pigato wine from Ponente to the Vermentino from Levante :-)

"Pleasing to the eye"? Beauty is only in the eye of the beholder -- or does someone want to argue otherwise?

Loathing Monaco is about what? If its not about the moneyed affluence, is it the visual impact of post-war high-rises (which Menton has plenty of. Check out these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO1YZ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29q5S...eature=related

As for Camogli and Sestri Levante, they began and to a large extent remain fishing villages that didn't change their historic town plans to accommodate automobiles and car-driven tourism, as did much of the Riviera Ponente. It's pretty hard to distinguish between Noli and Camogli

Picture of Noli

http://www.dailypeloton.com/article_...4/msr/noli.jpg

Picture of Camogli

http://www.cs.sandia.gov/~gscovaz/pictures/camogli.jpg

except Camogli didn't replace it's pedestrian lungomare and commercial fishing boat marina with a car drive and a sandy beach.

I think it's good people share their values and describe their reactions to various places, but their are historic, economic and geographic reasons why some Italian coastal towns are built right onto the sea, and why some developed a pre-20th c. resort atmosphere, and some a post-war resort atmosphere.

But which you prefer has a lot to do with your attitudes about money, class, history and what is the meaning of travel and/or vacationing -- in fact, if ever the word "worldview" had a concrete meaning, it means that how you will view Ventimiglia or Monaco or Sestri Levante is very much a reflection of how you view the world as a whole.

I certainly don't want to talk stcirq out of saying as often as she likes "that the measure of pleasantness just starts to tank after you pass the French border into Italy in that region," but she's talking about herself. For me (and I'm only talking about myself, it goes just the other way. I don't find Menton pleasant, and it just gets worse as I pass through Roquebrun onto Monaco. I want to turn around and go back to Italy.

Some will feel like stcirq. Some will feel like me. It can't be simplified down to some universal of idea of "pleasantness." It doesn't exist in travel and visiting foreign countries.

Villa Sampaguita,

A lot of quality Vermentino is produced right alongside Pigato in the Riviera Ponente

http://wineday.blogspot.com/2007/06/...ro-pigato.html

and vice versa

http://www.3cups.net/content1490



All these oversimplifed categories just don't cover the waterfront, to put it literally.

Just to emphasize how individualistic these reactions can be, here is a Paris-based vacation rental owner who was happily vacationing in Monaco, describing a daytrip to Ventimigila:

"Off we all went to drive through the wealthy resort towns of Villefranche, Eze, Roquebrune, Cap d'Ail and Menton, heading for Ventimiglia, the first town after crossing the border into Italy.

"Before wandering through the Friday afternoon market of clothing, knickknacks and food stuff, we took a brief walking tour of "Ventimiglia Alta" -- twisting, crumbling medieval alleys and dark streets, falling apart but alive, having once belonged to the Benedictine Monks of The Isle of Lerin (just off Antibes) who had connections to Seborga, of Templar fame. The Cathedral, which has a crypt dating from the 7th-century, is being fitted with a new organ (we heard them tuning it) and is said to be built on the site of a pagan temple from the inscription inside to Juno (Hera), wife of Jupiter (Zeus). The "trompe l'oeil" on the ancient buildings throughout the tiny town are astonishing, juxtaposed by adjacent hangings of the daily wash.

"Down at the market below, we took advantage of the beautiful and inexpensive leather goods, kitsch souvenirs and aged Parmesan cheeses at bargain prices. The merchants all speak Italian, French and some English, sometimes all at once! Before returning to France, we drove a bit further to San Remo, for real Italian pasta at a 'Ristorante' overlooking the sea."

Apparently wasn't unpleasant for her.

http://www.parlerparis.com/issues/pparis27-8-07.html

We have argued constantly about our reactions to various places and I think a person's feelings are as complex as his/her personality.

I can wax poetic about Venice and totally ignore the crumbling things, touristy tasteless restaurants, etc.

Monaco IS a moneyed place but some of it is beautiful to moi.

Still haven't looked at everything, Step, but I will.

Ventigmilia is not a great place to vacation. I've been there and it is pretty run down - it's kinda a way station between Italy and France. I think you have to consider your time and money. I would prefer to spend my limited travel time in cities that are interesting rather than just nothing to write home about.

But then Stepsbeyond has a good point, it doesn't hurt to explore where others don't bother to go. You may find a jewell you (and others) didn't know existed.