If the card defaults to pin what is the problem? Do I not understand how it works? I was thinking first the card looks for a signature and if there isn't one, you can put in your pin and then the charge goes through. Is that wrong? Thanks

yestravel...let me just say a lot of this is in a state of flux and also change. Essentially, as it seems to stand to stand today, 99.9% of pos terminals (in store terminals) will take a signature priority card which, for almost all American cards is the #1 verification method. Thus many Americans were and remain confused why their newly issued "chip and pin" cards always ask for a signature (let me add that in the United States today, many merchants no longer ask customers to sign for small purchases which is legal under US merchant agreements and rarely today do US merchants even look at signatures). Having said that, many but not all cards can then fall back on pins say at kiosks which don't process signature transactions. Many but not all. This was a problem and this is where visa is trying to outlaw that practice and require operators of kiosks do not reject cards lacking pins. If all cards had a pin backup, it would be a moot point but not all do.

Thanks, xyz! So if my card defaults to pin at one kiosk will it do so at most/all?

In theory, yes. The reality is a lot of this is still to be determined. Which card do you have?

The one that is supposedly a chip and pin is the PenFed. Have had it a couple years but haven't had the opportunity to use as one.

<i>The one that is supposedly a chip and pin is the PenFed. </i>

As someone who uses the PenFed card almost exclusively (no FTFs, no annual fee) and lives in Paris, I can assure you that the card is not chip & PIN. I wish it were. The PenFed card seems to have a rather wide range of acceptance however; even at unmanned gas pumps.

<i>Several on Flyer Talk got an explanation. The explanation was it was a business decision.</i>

That´s an explanation?

I made a business decisions as well and canceled mine.

Currently still have USAA chip and pin and it operated as one at Copenhagen metro last week. Normally at a merchant (UK, Denmark) it defaults to chip and sign. It's getting so complicated....

<i> It's getting so complicated....</i>

I believe that there still is a lot of confusion. Basically, it´s rather simple.

The default operation is when a purchase is made at a manned location which uses EMV processing equipment (as is found anywhere in Europe). How your card is accepted at a manned location defines whether it is a chip & PIN or a chip & signature card.

No it's still complicated. At a manned location in France the USAA card operates as a chip and pin. It doesn't in the UK and Denmark.

My wife still has a reissued USAA MC which we do not use because of the FTFs. We´ll have to give it a try to see what happens.

Ironically, those from Australia, whose cards they report to be chip & PIN everywhere else in Europe, appear to default to signature but only in France.

Ultimately, I agree with xyz, what is important is to avoid unnecessarily paying FTFs and annual fees.

"It was a business decision" seems to be today's way of saying "There's no reason; it's just our policy".

What are FTFs?

Chip & pin provides security to both the card user and the card accepter. When I use my card in the U.S., will my card issuer in the U.K. be happy with the no-security pin and signature system used there, and bear unlimited losses?

FTF - foreign transaction fees

For Americans...there is a very simple test to determine if your card defaults to chip and signature rather than chip and pin. The only American merchant that has more or less accepted offline pin cards for the past couple of years Is Walmart. That is slowly changing as 01 October nears. Go into Walmart, buy a chocolate bar if you're one of those who doesn't like Walmart, as many don't, and check out. You will be prompted to insert your chip card in the reader. One of two things sill happen. Either the transaction will go through and since the amount is under $50, no signature will be required. Transaction is done. Your card is not chip and pin. Or, if you are using say the card from UNFCU or First Tech FCU, you will be prompted for your pin. Those cards are pin priority. Foreigner who go to Walmart will almost always be asked for their pin because almost all cards issued by European banks are pin priority. As most US merchants still do not have emv compliant terminals, in most cases foreign cards still have to have the magnetic strip and will be process as signature transactions which in the USA means for small amounts no signature will be required, fo amounts generally over $50, you will either sign on the terminal or a paper receipt but no matter, no clerk will even look at it. Somebody once asked what security this system provides and the simple answer, of course, is none. But then again, in all due respect, I visit Great Britain a couple of times a year and in most cases, the clerk makes a pretense of checking the signature but I never sign the receipt in any way resembling the signature on the card and I have yet to have a clerk say a word (not deliberately but my signature on those signature panels just come out weird). I did notice this time around that fewer and fewer clerks even looked; many do still but many don't. Frankly, I feel the US system is much more efficient and that it is silly to bother with signatures for a £2 charge as I often make but according to people I have complained about the waste of time in checking signatures for small purchases, the merchant agreements require it.

What is basically being said by the American networks is that the security provided by emv chips is inherent in the chips and that the only time, as far as security is concerned that it matters whether a signature of pin is or nothing is used for verification is if the card is lost or stolen which they claim to not be a big problem. Draw your own conclusions. Whether you like it or I like it this is the way it has evolved in the USA and apparently all the commplaints in the world are not going to change it.

tom...just to explain to you. I have a travel rewards card from Bank of As'merica. It has no annual fee, no ftf. Bank of America literature swear up and down it's a chip and signature card. When I got the card, I requested the cash advance pin and csr's claimed that if I ever used that pin for a purchase, it would go through as a cash advance with all the fees associatd with such but gave me the pin anyway. I used the card as a kiosk at CPH airport last summer and lo and behold, it requested a pin. I entered the cash advance pin I had been given and it worked. You see, the pin on these cards but not all is an online pin. It doesn't reside on the chip, it sort of acts like a gatekeeper at the bank. There are a few places in the world where merchants' terminals are set to accept online pins. Heretofore, say at kiosks in Europe, most are looking for an offline pin, a pin that resides on the chip. It does get complicated to try to sort out the differences. Only thing I am trying to say is your experience in Copenhagen is not unprecedented. Once in a while but far from universally, the cash advance pin will be accepted and work in a kiosk and despite the lies told bh csr's the transaction will bo through as a purchase not a cash advance (but don't count on this happening elsewhere).

OK, I'll try to process all that. Unpredictable is maybe a better word for the situation.

Not sure if anyone has stated it but (ironically in the face of breech 2 yrs ago) Target stores was a world leader in emv rolling it out on their own cards about 2003. The pin process was slower (still is) and consumers hated it so it was withdrawn.

You may be interested to know that Target has recently begun implementing emv. I don't shop there so I don't know if this merchant will be pin preferred or signature preferred but it is a moot point for Americans as we have said because almost all American credit cards are signature preferred.

Sarastro - so you're sayiing despite the PenFed card NOT really being a chip & pin it works ok at unmanned gas stations? I guess I jsut need to really try it and see how it works. We take it with us each trip to Europe but havent had to use it. Our Chase card with a chip & signature has worked fine where we have used it, but never in an unmanned station. I agree the word to describe this for Americans is unpredictable for sure. Having gotten stuck on a Sunday in France needing gas and not being able to find a gas station where we could pay I would love to feel ocmfortable that I can avoid that from ever happening again. Appreciate all the info on this thread.

<i>Sarastro - so you're sayiing despite the PenFed card NOT really being a chip & pin it works ok at unmanned gas stations?</i>

Yes it does but I must use its PIN to complete the transaction. It also is accepted at ticket kiosks as well which will also ask for the PIN.

Virtually all credit cards are issued with PINs. Even the old magnetic strip cards had PINs. The difference between a chip & PIN card and a chip & signature card is how the card is accepted at a manned location (where the location is using EMV processing equipment).


<i>The pin process was slower (still is) and consumers hated it so it was withdrawn.</i>

As someone who shops exclusively at locations with EMV processing equipment, I can say that those completing transactions using only a PIN take far less time than those who must wait for two signature receipts to print (one for the vendor and one for the card holder) and making sure he has a pen, signs the merchant copy.

I think when people actually start to use their PINs for purchases, they will like the process much better than signing receipts.

Stop worrying, yestravel.

Visa and Mastercard have ordained that their security-free cards must be accepted worldwide. Rural French gas stations are bound to follow the rules. You can happily run low on a Sunday in the Massif Central.

yes...take your card into any Walmart if you don't like them and buy a chocolate bar. You will see no pin is requested; the card is signature preferred. At almost all manned (or womanned) pos terminals it will default to signature. As far as being sed at kiosks and gas pumps and the like, it has a backup pin and should work. Some have reported it will work in those situations other have reported problems. So nobody can give you assurance one way or the other. In theory, it should work.

Now if this really worries you (I can understand why), simply go to the First Tech FCU web site, join (I think you have to join some other organization to be eligible) and apply for their new mastercard. It is definitely pin preferred. I acquired the card, gave it the Walmart test last night and it passed. Carry it as a back up. (I like the Pen Fed card I have because it gives me 5% rebate on all gas purchases with no maximum (unlike say Chase Freedom which chooses one quarter each year to extend a 5% rebate on gas purchases but restricts it to the first $1500 of such purchases that quarter..

To me, in order, what I want in a credit card when I travel is no annual fee, no ftf, a rewards program of at least 2% cash back for each purchase if not more and lastly pin preferred. Alas, alas. No such card exists but pin preferred is really the least of my preferences.