Under Tuscan Hell
 

I swear we made these tentative plans way before the movie came out.

I, along with several of my friends, turn 30 in 2004 and we have talked for a couple of years about renting a villa in Tuscany for a couple of weeks to celebrate.

However, I have been unfortunately advised that these plans have been compromised by several interlopers who, by virtue of a friendship with one of our core group, have elected to participate in this trip to minimize costs. And the core group person has jumped on the opportunity to spend less.

My objections arise on several different levels.

One, I don't know these people. I don't care if my friend knows these people. I don't know them and the thought of spending 2 weeks in the company of strangers leaves me with a chill. Especially as I have listened to my friend lament endlessly on how pretentious and self-absorbed these people are. I have never met them, however, in all honesty.

Two, the money is not a consideration. We all (3 married couples) are secure enough to pay our own way and do not require cash supplementation.

Three, our friend with these two groups in common is very sweet. I do not doubt in the least that each (all) of us are entirely comfortable with spending a week or so in HER company, just not certain about the others.

I would appreciate feedback. Should we tell our friend that we want to limit our stay to be with people we already know (warts and all) and that she is welcome to plan whatever holiday she wants with her other group of friends, or should we just suck it up and take this chance with the unknown factors?

I anticipate some of the responses: new experiences, etc. However, we are spending big $$$$$$$$$$$ to do this and we don't want to endure our holiday, just enjoy it.

I am interested in your opinions. We must make a decision before the end of the year, so we have lots of time.

My thanks.

I definitely think you need to tell your friends that THEY need to tell their friends that this is a "private" party. Traveling is very dear to me and it is very important to have people that you get along with or the whole trip can be ruined.

Yes, it's true that you might end up really liking those people, but they could also drive you up the wall!!! It's not like you're on a tour where you can get away from people without fearing hurting someone's feelings.

It won't be easy, but definitely, stick to your original plans!

Do all the people participating in these plans have the freedom to change the plans/include others/rearrange things?
If not, then I would just tell the friend that the plan was to only include the three couples.
I don't blame you for feeling this way, I would be really upset.
Since you have plenty of time, you can iron these things out now so the trip will go that much smoother.
Good luck!

Be upfront and honest from the get go. It is too important and too much of an $$$ to possibly end up in Tusan Hell. From the sound of it, you have already made your judgement of these people. Is that really likely to change between now and d - day?

I would tell the friend that I prefer to stick to the original plans.

However, I think the situation was caused not by the "interlopers" as you call them, but by your friend who invited them along without consulting with the original group members. She obviously did not realize that the rest of you might object, but since you do, I think you should be honest with her about your feelings.

Since the thought of spending time with these people leaves you with a chill, it would be better to speak up now than to get to Tuscany and have a miserable trip. Good luck!

Whoever wants to be in the group with the pretentious people can be. Just make clear you and your husband, and whomever you want to join you specifically, are making separate arrangements. That might mean you don't go with the friend who invited these people, but that's her choice. Just do what's best for your holiday. I would rather stay in a tiny hotel room than stay in a villa with people I didn't care for.

" I have listened to my friend lament endlessly on how pretentious and self-absorbed these people are. . .. . our friend with these two groups in common is very sweet. . . . Should we tell our friend that we want to limit our stay to be with people we already know (warts and all)"

I would say, YES, you should tell your friend that you want her to stick with the original plans. I selected the above quotes because it sounds like she's asking for you help in growing a spine.

"I have listened to my friend lament endlessly on how pretentious and self-absorbed these people are."

Why would anyone be friends with these kind of people in the first place? Or does your "friend" also talking about you in the same manner? Get my drift?

Hi Catherine,

I agree that you should let the core group know that you expected that this trip would be a private get together and that you are prepared to do something else if it is expanded to include strangers.

It is sometimes hard enough to spend a week or so with close friends without increasing the chances of a ruined celebration.

You might consider the following analogy: Would your friend feel free to invite some of her friends to your wedding?

In a much smaller way, I recently faced a similar situation. I had weekend posh dinner plans with a couple that I hadn't seen in quite a while, and the woman told me a few days before the dinner that a friend from another city would be visiting her that weekend, so we'd all go to dinner together.

I had met that other friend from the other city several times, and I don't like her at all (nor she me, for all I know.) I knew that my evening at this relatively expensive restaurant would be spoiled, if not by the other person's behavior, by my own gargantuan strain in trying to smile and enjoy myself.

I called my friend up and said, "I know L. is a dear friend of yours and I admire her for that, but I've never learned to appreciate her myself. I won't be joining you, but let's reschedule."
My friend was I think taken by surprise, but took it very well.

In your situation, your friend certainly had no right imo to invite (or agree to accept) others without consulting the original group. You can ask your friend to give the others the bad news, or you can tell the "interlopers" yourself that on this occasion you're all going to keep the group smaller. If the interlopers get mad, what have you lost?

Catherine, a "sweet" person does NOT invite fourth parties and change the group dynamics, not without consulting everyone else! And to invite people she considers smarmy, to boot? All to save a bit of money? What other stunts will she pull? I would worry about that.

Here's another thing to think about. Sweetie is going to have to tell pretentious that they're not welcome to join the party. This puts sweetie in an awkward egg-in-the-face position (though entirely of her own making). Is sweetie going to forgive you for this?

Thank goodness you have until the end of the year to work this out. I'd watch sweetie like a hawk if I were you.

I'll add my vote to what seems to be a unanimous opinion. The "interlopers" couldn't have "elected to participate" unless your "sweet friend" opened the door for them...something she had no right to do.

Your friend is the guilty party here, and needs to be told that she violated the "core group's" agreement. As a penalty, SHE needs to inform the interlopers that "there's no room at the inn."

Vacations are too precious to have to compromise in this way. Speak up!

I remember a friend ( no longer a friend) who would invite us to her house for dinner and an evening of visiting and catching up. We lived more than an hour away from each other.
Then when we arrived, there would always be these strangers that she 'forgot' to mention would be there too.
When she started doing this when invited to parties at our home, we quit inviting her.
Your friend tried to pull a fast one on you. Stop it here or you will be sorry. Some people seem to have no idea of what is good manners and consideration. You could always tell the other couples too and include them in your reasons for Not allowing these people to be invited.
Good luck!

sh, I belive you've come up with a good excuse for Catherine's friend to use, since she seems like a pushover who'll need one: She can tell the others that you've already found a place in Tuscany and whaddayaknow, it's only big enough for the original 3 couples!!

Or, rent two villas and let "sweetie" stay with the interlopers and you stay with the other original couple.

Rent your own vehicle, so you can have some flexibility and alone time with your husband.

Good Luck!

I ended up in a situation much like this several years ago. I didn't have sense enough then to put my foot down and say NO, I do not want to spend my vacation with people I don't know.

The old adage "Experience is the best teacher" (or something to that effect) is very true! I learned my lesson and it will never happen again.

Your vacation is too important to take a chance on it being ruined.

I would start worrying more about spending a couple of weeks with a "friend" that has such questionable judgement. You may end up despising each other.
It has been my experience planning trips with other couples, that one person has to sort of be in charge. The others have to trust his/her judgement. This doesn't mean that everyone doesn't have input, but at some point, one person has to take responsibility for making arrangements. There still needs to be room for flexibility. For example one group wants to take a side trip here, others don't. You need to allow for that. What you can't have is every decision requiring a vote and once a decision is made it can't be constantly second guessed.
You really have to be careful with whom you choose to vacation. After a few days little things start to annoy you. Allowing the interlopers is a recipe for disaster.
JoeG

I agree with the other posters - I would tell your friend to un-invite them.
It's your holiday as well, you've been looking at this for years and it should be as perfect as possible (in the planning anyway...........?!)

Even the option of splitting the group is less than satisfactory since if you were to spend your days apart, you would realistically still have to spend your evenings together unless you want to go your entire trip without seeing your friend. Since you say you have spent years talking about this, I would suggest that that is unlikely to be acceptable?
Plus, evenings are when people are tired and more alchohol is in evidence, so strong personality quirks are more evident and flare ups are more likely anyway IMO.

Your "friend" caused this, explain your concerns to the other couple, get them on board and get the source of the problem to fix it (a bit Machiavellian but there you go.)

I notice nobody has come up with the "be more tolerant" approach!?

All in agreement, raise your hands! Done deal.

Trips with the wrong group of people can be hazardous to your health. Think of the stress?!! No one needs to go on vacation already worried about the personalities involved. Traveling in close quarters brings quirks and indiosyncrasies to the surface that(I know from experience) you may never have suspected.

Go with your orignal plans and let your friend know that it is not all right to invite people on what was to be "your" vacation.

Have a wonderful time!!

Go watch "Enchanted April" then decide ... (only kidding).

Actually, watching Enchanted April is a great idea! Catherine, once you get this all sorted out about who's going and who's not, I have a small suggestion. Don't stick to each other like glue. We have the best time when we're with other couples and we eat breakfast together and then meet up again for dinner together. If any of us wants to spend the day with the other, fine, but if not, that's also fine. There's no expectation to do everything together just because we're at the same place together. We spent four nights in Umbria with my BIL and SIL, and they're great people but we ate three meals a day with them, spent every day sightseeing with them...we couldn't shake them no matter what!!! By day 3 I was ready to start howling at the moon.

I don't see any point in trying to force the friend to uninvite the pretentious people. She wants them along, so let her have her own trip. Just make separate plans of your own with whatever friends you really want to take. If you did succeed in getting her to uninvite the people, do you think you would end up with a pleasant trip with her? Most likely she would be resentful and it could get nasty.

I agree with everyone but had one more idea. IF you wanted to even entertain the idea of allowing this to happen, set up a meeting/outing/dinner beforehand to see how they are. I personally would feel the same way as you, BUT if are curious as to who they are, you may have time to get to know them now, if they are local...just a thought. Great Thread Name by the way !

Not that you need yet another vote, but I agree with the others. The fact is you all were planning this trip together and she didn't have the right to make a major decision about the vacation without consulting the others.

Although I don't know your history with this friend, I will give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she hasn't done this type of thing before. So, I would say, if you value her friendship, that you should tell her as nicely and tactfully as possible that the uninvited guests are just that. Not invited.

She should be understanding if she is a good friend. After all, if you don't get along with these people, the entire trip could be ruined.

Catherine , there is an old roman proverb that says:" E meglio essere sola che male accompagnata", it means that is best to be alone, that to be in bad company...
Tell your friends that you should stick to the original plans,and that you dont feel comfortable sharing your lodging with strangers.By the way unless the villa is a mansion, where are these people going to sleep?
For myself, I dont enjoy going in vacation with other people, I like to be free to do What I want to do...

I am amazed at all of the replies. And you all agree with me! Thank God no one told me to grin and bear it. I'm afraid I don't have that much "grin" in me.

Since we haven't paid any deposits yet, we're going to invite my friend and her husband out to dinner and just tell them straight-out that we don't want to include additional people into the group dynamic. We all have been friends for a long time and it would just not be the same. I enjoy meeting and being around new people, but not for this trip.

Many of you were right about my friend. She is a bit ditzy and doesn't always have the best judgment, but we've been through a lot together growing up. She and her husband are pretty easy to travel with as they are so compliant with whatever anyone wants to do and very agreeable. (She's a gourmet cook as well!) I think her good nature offers people the opportunity to take advantage of her and I feel somewhat protective.

Maybe she wants us and the other couple to kick a fuss so she can tell the others that it just didn't work out.

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'm putting this behind me and concentrating on a great location!

I think you should call your friends' friends directly and welcome them, saying "We didn't know you were nudists, too! Boy are we looking forward to a lot of time in the sun, if you know what I mean. Remember, pack light!"

BITTER! LOL! GOOD ONE!

"Maybe she wants us and the other couple to kick a fuss so she can tell the others that it just didn't work out."

This is what would bother the heck out of me. Sweetie gets to be sweetie, and the rest of you get to be The Bad Guys. Look, you know your friend, but this kind of manipulative behaviour would disturb me even more than another's pretentiousness. (And no, I have learned, finally, that it is NOT sweet...) The duplicity would also tend to undermine my trust. If she talks behind these people's backs about their character flaws, what is she saying behind YOUR backs to them? What does this tell you about her role in generating, as opposed to resolving conflicts? And you propose sharing a villa for two weeks with this person? Catherine, some friends aren't meant to travel with.

IF it were me (and I realize it ain't) I would NOT be pressured into solving this person's problems for them. I'd throw the ball back in your friend's court and simply state: We are unhappy with the revised group, what do you, Sweetie, think we should do about it?

I predict her response will be a doe-eyed, oh, I'll tell them they can't come if you really don't want them to. (Thereby sabotaging any hope of friendship with these people should it later turn out they are more bearable or likeable than as presented to you.)

To which I would reply, No, you tell them not to come, or to come, if YOU really want them to. But we will make our decision dependent on yours.

Good luck, this is easier said than done, I know.

And Bitter, that was priceless. : - )

Bitter: GREAT ONE! LOL!

Catherine: Why not try an in-between road which is also diplomatic? Why not say to sweetie that you and your DH hadn't anticipated having anyone else along and that you are really worried about the chemical mix of this new group?

Then suggest that ALL of you, the three original couples plus this new couple, get together for one evening - just to get to know one another? Tell sweetie that you reserve judgment on the new couple until after you have met them, and, therefore, their inclusion is dependent on how things work out during the initial meeting.

Why knows? You may enjoy them immensely. On the other hand, it wasn't fair of sweetie to suddenly thrust a new dimension on the rest of you - but, you can prove to be open-minded by at least entertaining the idea of another couple entering the picture.

If you are spending BIG BUCKS as you have implied, I agree with the other posters that you should feel totally at ease during your vacation. Just meet this other couple and keep an open mind. If they turn out to be as bad as sweetie has said, then she, for one, should have no problem telling the new couple that they can't join in on the trip.

Just my HO - after my second glass of Sublime, a new French orange liqueur obtained at Trader Joe's for only $5. I was going to use it to make orange cake (yeah, right!)

Bitter,

Truly funny!!! But what if they say, Yippee!!! :)

kismetchimera,

>>there is an old roman proverb that says:" E meglio essere sola che male accompagnata", it means that is best to be alone, that to be in bad company.<<

Now, I know why I felt so at home in Italy, that's exactly how I feel about life in general...a good book, my cat, TV, watching a blade of grass growing is better than being with someone you really don't like.

Oh easytraveler! You said the right thing by mentioning Trader Joe's. They import Italian pasta (wrapped in brown paper and tied with a raffia string) and it is the next best thing to being in Italy. Catherine, try this and you will be counting the days until you turn 30 and enjoy your Italian trip (I have a feeling everything will turn out alright.)

Well, you seemed to have gotten 100% replies to not go along with the added company. I completely agree. This is to be a special 30th b-day for 3 close couples. I suspect your friend excitedly told "her" friends about the trip and they said, "we want to go." Being a timid person she said o.k. Now she's stuck. However, she can tell her friends that the rest of you want to keep the group intimate and not include people you don't know. Takes her off the hook.

Although I am in total agreement with the majority of the posters here, there are a few things that are unclear to me:

1. Is there a firm date for this trip and have the original three couples all agreed to this trip, or is it still a conceptual idea for three couples to rent a villa in Tuscany for two weeks?

2. Has a villa been selected and have the deposits been paid?

3. What is the opinion of the third couple?

It would seem to me that the three couples that had initially planned this trip need to discuss together whether a fourth couple should join them. It may be perfectly alright with the third couple in this party (of which we don't know their opinion) for the fourth to join in. It may be presumptuous of Catherine to assume that the costs involved are not an issue to the other two couples.

If costs are an issue to the two couples (other than Catherine and her husband), will a vote of 2/3 to go ahead and invite the fourth couple be okay with Catherine, or will Catherine and her husband bow out and go on this trip alone?

Although I do see Catherine's point, and it may also be the consensus of the couple that we don't have an opinion from, it also may not be fair for Catherine to make the decision/give an ultimatum for the group as a whole.

Lastly, if the friend that invited the fourth couple bows out of this trip, will the cost of renting a villa be overwhelming for two couples, instead of three or four?

Someone previously suggested that no matter how many couples actually take this trip, that you should have more than one vehicle at your disposal. For two weeks, all of you don't want to be attached at the hip no matter how close you are. You will definitely need some space from each other and you will need to set up some ground rules. Even the closest of friends can become disenchanted with each other when you are together too often.

Best of luck whatever the outcome, and do enjoy your vacation.

True friendship is a wonderful thing.

I can see how frustration and resentment could result both before and after the trip given this odd situation.

This touchy issue needs to be resolved ASAP so you can focus on the positive aspects of the trip. Don't risk ruining the group dynamics just to save a few bucks!

The last few posts have been assuming that Catherine's friend invited one other, fourth, couple, but actually her first post said, "these plans have been compromised by several interlopers who, by virtue of a friendship with one of our core group, have elected to participate in this trip to minimize costs. " Several is not one other couple, and "have elected" isn't exactly the same as being invited.

And I think her strategy posted yeserday, "we're going to invite my friend and her husband out to dinner and just tell them straight-out that we don't want to include additional people into the group dynamic. We all have been friends for a long time and it would just not be the same. I enjoy meeting and being around new people, but not for this trip," makes sense completely. Good luck, Catherine!

>Bitter,

Truly funny!!! But what if they say, Yippee!!! <

Rather than nudists substitute "swingers".

Ira, they may say: Yippee, Yippee Hurray!! THen What?

Mention that you are bringing your new screaming baby, step child, recently adopted toddler or your foster child - who thows wobblies evey other minute, has a hyper activity issue and never sleeps. Good luck Caterina

We had planned a trip to Italy with another couple, who have been our friends for over 40 years (went to high school together). Several weeks into the planning, the "other" woman calls and says she was thinking of inviting a couple they spend time with at their summer home. This couple had already been to Italy, and when they heard about the trip, they wanted to come along.
I stood my ground and said that I didn't think it would be a good idea, since we'd never met them (our friends live in another state), and also because the new couple had already been there and would want to see "their" favorite places, or get to places they hadn't seen the first time. I just thought it would create too much tension. Thankfully, the 3rd couple didn't come, and as it was, there was enough tension with just the 4 of us!

It's funny, we spend about a week every year together, but placed in a foreign country, and with one very picky eater, that was enough to concern ourselves with! Two weeks is a long time to be together constantly. You need to choose your travel companions very carefully, and give each other space. We learned a lot on that trip.

This year, we went alone for the first time, and while we sort of missed the conversations and sharing of each day's experiences, we truly had a ball just doing what WE wanted to do.