Umbria
 

You all have been very helpful planning this trip. We are going to fly into Venice and stay two nights and from there, I like the idea of Umbria A LOT.... Orvieto or any other ideas?
We have two nights and then we go to Rome for the rest of the trip.

Venice to Orvieto by train? Should I be booking train tickets in advance to save money since we do want an express train.

I want a combination of natural beauty and medieval towns. I am traveling with 12 year old boys so really there is a limit to the number of churches and museums I can drag them into. But they do like some of that too (just not as much as me).

Would love ideas on where to stay, what to do and do we rent a car? Out of Florence?

Thank you

I think Orvieto is a good place for kids. There <i> is </i> a beautiful Italian Gothic cathedral there, but there are lots of other things that might appeal to twelve-year-olds.

It takes a while to get to Orvieto from Venice, so I'd just spend the two nights there. You wouldn't need a car, and it wouldn't save you any time; it would take longer (and cost more).
When you arrive to Orvieto by train, you have to take a funicular railway up to the town, on top of a hill. That's the first thing the boys might enjoy. Another thing they might like is a tour of underground Orvieto. Over the centuries, starting in Etrsucan times, many storage rooms, tunnels, and hiding places were carved out in the soft tufa rock on which Orvieto sits. The tours show you a selection of these underground spaces and explain their stories to you. (These tours weren't available the last time I was in Orvieto, so I have no personal experience of them.)

http://www.orvietounderground.it/index.php/en/

Another interesting visit is to the Well of St. Patrick (Pozzo di San Patrizio). I think most kids would enjoy using the staircase in opposite directions, never passing the other.

http://www.inorvieto.it/en/visit/orv...ck_s_well.html

The National Archaeological Museum (which I've never visited) has many early (pre-Roman) artifacts, including two rebuilt chamber tombs.

http://www.inorvieto.it/en/visit/mus...al_museum.html

If you think these things, as well as just wandering around the town (and maybe shopping for ceramics), wouldn't fill the time, you could take a bus to Civita di Bagnoregio, which is a medieval town, reachable only by a pedestrian bridge. It's very touristy, but many people, including Rick Steves, enjoy it. There are regular buses from Orvieto, and this page tells you how to get there:

http://wikitravel.org/en/Civita_di_Bagnoregio

<b>Getting to Orvieto, and then to Rome, by train</b>

You can get to Orvieto by taking a fast train to Florence, and then changing to a slow train to Orvieto. If you buy the tickets to Florence early, you can usually get good discounts. See http://www.trenitalia.com/tcom-en .

From Orvieto to Rome, there are direct trains.

You have to use the Italian names of the cities on the railway sites (Venezia, Firenze, Roma). When buying tickets, always enter not only the date, but also roughly the time of day you want to travel. If you're not sure, enter a very early hour to see all the trains. Don't just leave the default time, because if it's late in the day, the schedule will roll over to the next day, and you may end up buying nonrefundable tickets for the wrong day!

There are both Regional and Intercity trains from Florence to Orvieto, and from Orvieto to Rome. The Intercity trains appear to be faster, but these trains usually use remote stations in both Florence (Rifredi) and Rome (Tiburtina), so any time you save would be lost in getting to and from the station. The regional trains don't take much more time, so I would stick to them. Do check the schedule to make sure the stations are the more central Firenze S.M. Novella and Roma Termini.

The regional trains have no discounts, and there's no advantage to buying them in advance. You can get them at the station in Venice or Florence. They are not for a specific train, so you can use them on any regional train you please. However, you must stamp them in a machine by the track just before you board the train, to indicate your time of travel and prevent them from being reused.

Perugia is another choice between Venice and Rome. We stayed in a hotel at the bottom of the escalator going up to the old city. I would have to find my travel journal to get the name. The old city has its charms, but the much larger modern parts of Perugia are not so interesting IMO.

I also really enjoy Orvieto! The Hotel Duomo is very close to the dome square. Hotel Picolomini is at the other end of the old city. Both are good choices. Orvieto is very walkable.

I also like Spoleto, but we have Italian friends living there who show us around. Gives it a special appeal for us.

You can't go wrong in Umbria!

Spoleto and Perugia are also very nice, but I think that Orvieto has more appeal to adolescents.

So it looks like we have three nights we could spend in Umbria. Do you suggest keeping Orvieto as a base to explore from or spend a night and a day there and move to another town?

So far I booked 2 nights in Orvieto. Would it make sense to move on for the third night to another town before heading to Rome? Would teens like Agriturisimo (anyone try that with kids)? Or maybe Spoleto? I really am kind of confused from the guide books and because I am still grieving for my mother I just am not 100% focused on the trip that is coming up in a month! Yay.

You'd have to backtrack quite a lot to get to Spoleto. Since you'll have a car, I would consider either Tivoli or someplace on Lake Bracciano, depending on what your family would enjoy most. These aren't in Umbria, but in Lazio, the same region as Rome, but well worth a visit.

<b>Tivoli</b> is an attractive town in the hills east of Rome. There are three villas from very different historic periods that people visit.

The Villa Adriana is the summer villa of the ancient Roman Emperor Hadrian. The ruins are very beautiful, and extensive.

The Villa D'Este was the villa of a Renaissance cardinal, famous for its water garden, with hundreds of fountains.

The Villa Gregoriana (which I haven't seen, as it was being restored when I was there) is a 19th century Romantic-style villa, with grottoes, cascades, glades, and the like. There's also an ancient temple on the grounds, which are on a rather steep slope.

<b>Lake Bracciano</b> is a large lake just north of Rome. The town of Bracciano is on the lake, with a castle on a cliff overlooking the lake. (Tom Cruise married Katie Holmes there.) Other places on the lake would be more rural, and there are some agriturismi and "country houses" on the lake or very nearby. Here is one example that looks suitable, although I have no personal experience.

http://www.agriturismo.it/en/farmhou...449/index.html

In either case, on your way from Orvieto in the direction of Rome, you could stop to see the <b>Cascate delle Marmore</b>, a very beautiful waterfall. This was created in ancient times when the Romans drained a swamp above the falls by diverting a river so that it fell over this cliff. The water is now mostly used by a hydroelectric plant, but twice a day, they turn the water back over the falls, and it's really a sight to behold. You can see the timetable here:

http://www.marmorefalls.it/home.php?id=1&lang=eng

There are trails alongside the falls that are very nice to climb, but some time before the water is released, they sound sirens and everyone has to get off the trails.

Unless you find an agriturismo of specific interest to your teens, it might make sense to keep it simple and stay in Orvieto. Even if you are not renting a car, you can mix it up with visits to other towns from Orvieto, Cortona and Chiusi being the simplest, but I don't think it is all that hard to get to Perugia or Spoleto by public transportation from Orvieto. I'm not sure, but I think there may also be buses that go regularly to Civita di Bagnoreggio and/or Pitigliano.

If you have a car, there are a couple of unusual non-museum/art sights within reasonable driving distance: the waterfalls of the Cascata delle Marmore, the Bomarzo "monster" park, the Etruscan tombs around Sorano or the sights of Narni.

A google search for each of the places (like, "visit Narnia Italy") will give you an overview of what the attractions are.

Typo alert! Meant that to be "visit Narni" (no 'a' at the end)

Apparently bvlenci and I were typing at the same time. If you have a car, it might make sense to keep moving in the direction of Rome (although a lot of people touring Italy typically drop off their car in Orvieto just to avoid the hassles of dropping off the car in Rome). But if you are going next month, I am not sure how open for business Lago Bracciano would be. While there are certainly people who live there, the lake pretty much operates as a good-weather seasonal place. Spring weather in Italy is usually pretty unpredictable, and it's not clear to me what you would do at the lake if you booked to spend a night there and it turned to be raining for those 2 days.

We loved Orvieto, stayed 2 nights, wished we had stayed 3. We stayed at the Hotel Duomo, an excellent place, comfortable and well located near the Duomo.

We did the underground tour which was fascinating. As mentioned above, the caves and tunnels date back to the Etruscans and have been expanded during the middle ages and used all the way up to World War II, when people took shelter there during air raids. The volcanic formation on which the upper town is built has been so honey-combed with these caves that the city has constructed huge steel and concrete piers in the areas underneath the cathedral to prevent a collapse. Your kids will enjoy exploring, especially squeezing through some very narrow tunnels and stairs. (If you're claustrophobic, best to avoid the tour.)

You can walk around the circuit of the walls of the upper town. There is a wonderful Etruscan cemetery at the base of the town (I forget which side but clearly indicated on city maps). This is a national archeological park with good explanatory materials at the park office. Many of the tombs are small sepulchers, halfway below ground. You can enter some of them. Etruscan inscriptions are clearly visible on some of the lintels (the language has never been deciphered).

The Duomo museum has some fine medieval artwork. There is also a good archeological museum.

The upper town can see many tour groups in the middle of the day but they leave by mid-afternoon and it's a delight to wander the streets in the early evening.

It occurs to me to add that if I were coming by train from Venice to Orvieto, and staying for 2 or 3 nights, I'm not sure I would bother with renting a car. The train ride from Venice to Orvieto is long enough that it is unlikely you'll finish all your sightseeing in Orvieto the day you arrive. Using trains or buses will get you to many other nearby tourist attractions. Part of the consideration is where you intend to drop off the car.

These are great ideas.
O.k. So I am thinking we to go to Civita di Bagnoregio and maybe Spelo but I maybe we are being too ambitious. I didn't realize there is so much in Orvieto. So maybe Orvieto and Civita di Bagnoregio? Although Narni sounds great too.

We were not going to rent a car, but we could? Maybe take an express train to Florence from Venice and pick one up in Florence and drive to Orvieto? It was great having a car in Tuscany so I could see driving to Orvieto and stopping at a town for lunch as a possibility. It is nice to get off the beaten path and get lost.

I think we will be pretty busy but we do like to hike also. Although, you know 12 year olds can suddenly get "exhausted" and you know... that may not be an option.

I think I might need a better guide book than Lonely Planet which doesn't seem to be giving me much in the way of trains. And buses are not an option because my husband gets carsick.

If you're not renting a car, it might be better to stay in Orvieto. However, if buses are out of the question, you'd need a car to get to Civita di Bagnoregio. I'm not sure where else you could go that would interest your kids. Cortona doesn't have a lot going on, and its train station is pretty far from the town. I actually like Arezzo, on the same train line, better,and you can walk from the station. However, I'm not sure it's worth the trip from Orvieto,especially as far as the 12-year-olds are concerned.

If you'd be willing to rent a car just for the part between Orvieto and Rome, you would have more choices of a place to stay en route.

I've been on Lake Bracciano twice. Once was in late April, around the time of Liberation Day (the 25th). The other was in late October. The place wasn't throbbing with activity either time, but it was an enjoyable place to spend a few hours. I would say that late April was more lively than late October.

The town of Orvieto has a decent tourism website.

http://www.inorvieto.it/en/

There are some suggested hikes listed (e.g.,one around the base of the upper town, mentioned above) with descriptions.

http://www.inorvieto.it/en/visit/nature_routes.html

I have stayed in Orvieto for three nights and kept busy with hikes, the wonderful museum and duomo, St. Patrick's Well and the tufa caves.

There is also a nice passeggiata in the evenings.

It's a fairly long drive from Florence to Orvieto, even if you only stay on the highway. If you'd like to rent a car in Florence and meander/visit small towns on the way to Orvieto, it might be better to make Orvieto your last hotel stop before Rome rather than your first, if you are able to change your hotel reservations in Orvieto. One plan might be to pick up the car in Florence and head for Gubbio (in Umbria), stopping for lunch along the way. If you didnt' want to stay in Gubbio, you could stay in the small quiet village of Montone nearby. You could spend 1 or 2 nights in that area, and head to Orvieto. Even if you only spent 1 night in Orvieto, you could still see Civita di Bagnoregio before dropping off the car in Orvieto.

If you don't want to change your Orvieto hotel reservations, another possibility would be, if you are willing to get up very early in the morning in Venice, is taking an early train to Chiusi (in Tuscany) to pick up a rental car there. Chiusi is much closer to Orvieto than Florence, and after picking up the car, you would have a lot of time to go exploring in the countryside, in either Tuscany or Umbria, before spending your first night in Orvieto. Personally, I would do a 3 night stay in Orvieto until it was time to go to Rome, and take the train to Rome. I wouldn't bother driving to another location between Orvieto and Rome, and I wouldn't want to drive into Rome.

Lastly if you decide not to have a car but simply take the train to Orvieto, I would recommend Chiusi as a place to take kids + have lunch and do a tour of the "Underground City" and catacombs. Given the amount of money you will save by not renting a car, you might look into the possibility of using a driver or taxis to take you to Civita di Bagnoregio.

Chiusi

http://www.valdichianaliving.it/en/territories/chiusi

This is all incredibly helpful. O.K. O.K. final idea (which I am getting from all of your great advice)
On the 25th take a train from Venice to Orvieto (thank you, won't do the express train)
26th Explore Orvieto (lots to do)
27th rent a car and go to Civita di Bagnoregio and __________________ (ideas for nice drive? Maybe go all the way to Spello?). Back to Orvieto to sleep and drop off car.
28th early morning hike then train from Orvieto to Rome

OR rent car 27th and bring luggage in trunk. Go to Civita di Bagnoregio and end up in Spello and hopefully drop off car there. Take train next afternoon to Rome from there?

Maybe that makes more sense to stay in Orvieto then switching towns? I do want to poke around with a car for one day and for some reason I have Spello in my head (but there seems to be so many great options)

>>>On the 25th take a train from Venice to Orvieto (thank you, won't do the express train)<<<

Express trains don't stop in Orvieto, but you should take one to Florence and then switch.

>>>27th rent a car and go to Civita di Bagnoregio and __________________ (ideas for nice drive? Maybe go all the way to Spello?). Back to Orvieto to sleep and drop off car.<<<

I usually find a one day rental to cost as much as a three day (some have a 3 day minimum). I don't believe there is any rental drop off in Spello (I would imagine you would need to drop the car in Foligno). Plus it's a time consuming drive from Civita. It is possible to take the bus (probably not on Sunday though) to Civita and back (make sure you buy return tickets and check return times).

One of our favorite things to do in Orvieto is to have a glass of wine (or two) at one of the restaurants facing the Duomo at sunset.

The sun reflecting on the gold of the Duomo is beautiful, and unforgettable!

Byrd

Another poster said the express train to Florence stops at an inconvenient station and we would need to switch to another station to get to Orvieto?

Love the idea of sitting and watching the sun set with a glass of wine (or bottle).

thanks

There is a transfer and car service listed on the Orvieto tourism website that you might check out (I have not used them). They offer driver service to Civita for 90euros for a party of 4, which might be cheaper and less hassle than renting a car.

They also advertise other destinations.

http://www.orvietotransfer.it/index.php/en/

Lago di Bolsena (a volcanic lake) is very pretty, although I am not sure how it would be at the time of year you are going. It is not a bad drive from Orvieto.

With a car rental and with kids, I would either go to the waterfalls in Umbria (Cascata delle Marmore) or, since you are already headed to Civita di Bagnoregio, consider going to Saturnia. These are sulphur springs, however, and some kids really dislike the rotten-egg odor. Also in the direction of Civita di Bagnoregio, your kids might find Pitigliano and nearby Sovana and Sorano more interesting than Spello.

There are at least two non-stop trains a day from Venice to Orvieto. One leaves Venezia Mestre station at 9:29, arriving Orvieto 14:08. That's less than 5 hours, and this avoids the hassle of getting off and on trains in Florence. Another non-stop train leaves Venezia Mestre 15:14 and arrives Orvieto 19:25, just a little more than 4 hours.

A good train info website is loco2.com, a UK-based site. You can buy your tickets online. It's a very good operation. I've used them a couple of times (I'm in U.S.)

Thank you EYWandBTV... I was looking at that site and it is easy. I cannot figure out how difficult to get to Maestre. I have to get two lazy 12 year olds out of bed. (Not totally lazy but it is hard to get them up sometimes and I don't want to miss that 9:30 train.). Does it take a while to get to that other train station?
@Sandralist... I think we will rent a car and after Civita di Bagnoregio, check out Sovana or Sorano depending on lunch and what to do.

Thank you everyone

Here's a good web site for info on connections between Mestre and Venice (whose central station is Santa Lucia):

http://europeforvisitors.com/venice/...e-by-train.htm

Note that the spelling is "Mestre" not "Maestre" (in case you are Googling for info).

I understand the challenge of getting sleepy kids up early in the morning. You may want to choose a later train.

>>>Another poster said the express train to Florence stops at an inconvenient station and we would need to switch to another station to get to Orvieto?<<<

There are plenty of trains from Venice SL to Florence SMN where don't have to add a change from Venice to Mestre or change to another station in Florence to go on to Orvieto.

Trenitalia and Italo are the actual train companies on this route (Venice/Florence). Italo only operates between major cities so doesn't have trains that stop in Orvieto (or as many between major cities as Trenitalia). I don't see any advantage of buying through a reseller that charges in £ and paying a fee.

http://www.trenitalia.com/tcom-en

http://www.italotreno.it/?sc_lang=en

I would much rather take a fast train to Florence and change trains in Florence than take an IC train for 5 hours. YMMV. I'm not a fan of IC trains at all. You could even store your luggage at the train station in Florence and spend some time there before traveling on to Orvieto (the historic center of Florence is a few minutes walk from the station).

There are buses from Orvieto to Civita (and to other nearby towns), but then you would be tied to the bus schedule. The bus to Civita used to depart across from the train station beside the funicular entrance, but that may have changed.