We have two weeks in Umbria coming up that we've planned with about as much detail. We picked our rental because of the view of the hills from the bedroom, and the lovely outdoor terrace with a grill.

Back from Fiesole. Yes, we stretched it to a day: partly by making a late start; partly by loitering over lunch; partly by just loitering.

Did one cathedral; two or three churches; one art exhibition; one monastery with basement museum; viewed lots of panoramas and vistas; looked at various interesting buildings from many different historical times; saw the amphitheatre from several angles - except for the official point of view, because the museum was closed today. Did a lot of uphill walking, because Fiesole is hilly; didn't seem to do as much downhill.

Saw Firenze for the first time; it's remarkably like the distant view of Florence shown in some guidebooks.

Lord, being a tourist is tiring. We need a rest.

hi Padraig,

so glad you got to the monastery and the museum. did you see the nativity scene as well? really lovely.

hope you enjoy your rest - what's next?

Glad to hear that there are other lazy tourists like myself. Like you, we normally do absolutely nothing except eat and loiter around places that we enjoy. Bravo that you even try to see a church/museum, for us it's just another museum/church, it gets boring unless there is a personal connection or special event to enhance the place.

Ann, we saw the crib. It seemed really unseasonal.

DAX, churches and museums are shady places on hot days. I'm not into ecclesiastical art, but I find the architecture of churches interesting, particularly in what it has to say about how people were regarded - who could get near to God, and who had to worship from afar.

I forgot to tell you about our local town, Pontasseive. It got its name from the building of a bridge over the Seive in medieval times; a town grew there, and over the years became an important transport hub (rail as well as road). As a consequence, it was bombarded in WW2, and reduced to near-nothing. The centro storico (signposted) dates from about 1951. But a handsome medieval bridge survives.

Correction to previous post: the river is the Sieve, and the town Pomntassieve.

Today has been very hot, so we skulked in the shade for a long time, emerging to seek lunch in the small restaurant in Rosano. This not a tourist restaurant. We were the only two among about 40 diners who did not speak Italian and who did not seem to be known in the establishment - but we were known. "Over here and I will help you": it was the young Connemara enthusiast we had met on Sunday. He explained the system to us - to one counter to order and collect our bread and drinks; then take a place inside or on the terrace and the food would be brought to us; then to another counter to pay. Not exactly intuitive for strangers. Apart from our friend, a couple of other staff members spoke a little English which, combined with our rudimentary and very random Italian, enabled us to enjoy our lunch - the experience as much as the food.

We took a drive to explore the local area a bit further. Driving in Tuscany is hard work: narrow twisting roads, hardly any level stretches, impatient Italian drivers crowding the cautious newcomer who has no idea of what is around the next bend; motorcyclists who pull out to pass in the face of oncoming traffic on roads that are simply not wide enough to accommodate them... I could go on. But the scenery is fascinating, the rural buildings charming, often eccentric, the villages varied and interesting.

Back at base now, enjoying a cold beer.

Ann, we saw the crib. It seemed really unseasonal.>>

Padraig, there is a real tradition of these cribs ["presepe"] throughout Italy and they seem to leave them in place all year - I've seen them in summer not only in Fiesole but in Rome and Siena. the best ones I've seen are replicas of the town they are in - the one in Rome faithfully reproduced the little square [actually triangle] in which the church stood, but as it was in the C18, complete with the prostitutes hanging out of the windows of the neighbouring buildings!

I love the sound of the restaurant you describe. the procedure for getting something to eat in italian cafes especially seems really random, as my kids would say. i am particularly confused by the ones where you have to pay for what you want and then get a ticket for it. how are you supposed to know what it is that you are going to want? ok if it's just a cappuccino or corneto, but what if it's a complicated sandwich or other dish? did you manage to get what you thought you had ordered?

Completely enjoying your tales, Padraig. I suggest you offer "Padraig 101"...a quick course in travel planning and returning to a true vacation mentality.

Nothing like a cold beer on a hot day!
I almost felt sorry for you except Padraig's on holiday while I'm stuck working.
Buon soggiorno!

Weather report from the west of Ireland - autumn would seem to have to arrived; the polite word is "changeable".
Enjoy that alfresco beer!

Oh, by the way, there is talk of snow by end October.
Strongly advise you have another of those beers......

Please keep this coming!

Weather report from the west of Ireland - autumn would seem to have to arrived; the polite word is "changeable".>>

Changeable would be good. Here is cornwall it's wet or cold, or both.

snow? bring it on!

We had dinner on-site last night - Tuscan platters provided by our agriturismo hosts, with wine produced on the farm. And entertainment - a singer with an impressive electronic kit, singing such classics as "Volare", "That's Amore", and "Let's Forget about Domani" - a real Italian cultural night. I must give him great credit, however: he got people dancing, and got strangers to mingle happily.

Today we visited Arezzo. I think zeppole is right: it must feature only in very old guidebooks. One good cathedral, several interesting churches (lots of frescos), many interesting buildings from medieval times onwards, piazzas large and small, a number of museums (we settled for one). But the Roman amphitheatre was wrecked by some de Medici or another to get stone for a castle, and the castle is largely gone. So strike it from the guidebooks for that piece of cultural vandalism. We forced ourselves to enjoy our visit.

This is the fifth full day of our trip. We have encountered people of many nations, including Germans, Dutch, French, Norwegians, Austrians, Polish, Slovenian, English, Australian, Spanish, and Peruvian. But so far, not one American. I wonder why. Are we really in the wrong place?

Tomorrow is our last full day here. I suppose that we had better check out Firenze.

Hub and I traveled to Italy in March and sometimes September and were told to expect fewer Americans at those times. Kids going back or still in school may be a big reason. Although I would expect more retired Americans at this lovely time of year. Don't know why.

Will you have any meal time in Bologna? Great food there FYI.

The Italian understanding of a pedestrian precinct seems to be a place where pedestrians do not have the protection of pavements, and take their chances with the traffic.

We haven't yet thought about Bologna. That's Saturday, and today is still Thursday.

We have been to Bologna before, and I agree about the food. Tuscany's not so bad, either. We had a very tasty Coniglio alla Cacciatora in Arezzo today. And memorably-good tomatoes all week.

"not one american, I wonder why"
We're all in Vegas dancing to Volare & That's Amore at the Venetian & Bellagio as we can't afford the Euros anymore.

<<Driving in Tuscany is hard work: narrow twisting roads, hardly any level stretches, impatient Italian drivers crowding the cautious newcomer who has no idea of what is around the next bend; motorcyclists who pull out to pass in the face of oncoming traffic on roads that are simply not wide enough to accommodate them.>>

Heh - -you have the Italian driver down pat. But I must say I've driven in both western Ireland and Tuscany and the roads that still have me waking up with night sweats — 15 years later — are in Ireland.

We found the Americans: they are all in Firenze. Along with a lot of other people.

Hi Padraig,
We're headed to Florence to visit our son who is studying there. Not thrilled about the throngs of Americans. We travel to Italy often, but usually for work or to visit friends...we hate lines and the whole Renaissance Disneyland scene. Can you recommend two panoramic, off-the-beaten-path day trips for us? One must include 5 minutes in Pisa.

To be honest, crosscheck, I am not well-placed to advise you because Herself and I got great value out of doing very little. In terms of being interesting without being too crowded, Arezzo was perhaps our best excursion.

You set up an interesting question with the phrasing "Renaissance Disneyland scene". Much of the stuff, even in Florence, is genuine and impressive. It seems to get downgraded by visitors.

We're headed to Florence to visit our son who is studying there. Not thrilled about the throngs of Americans.>>

cross-check - i was in firenze/florence in May, and sadly failed to find these hoards of your compatriots. things I did not do:

tour the Dome or the Baptistry, or the Campanile. [been there, dome that].

go to the Uffizi or the Accademia

go anywhere near the ponto vecchio

go to any outlets [what ever they are]

I DID got to the monastery of san marco early in the morning when virtually no-one else was there, explore the area north of Santa Croce, which is full of locals and very few tourists of any hue, visit the gardino di barberi which again wasn't full of any nationality, and explore the streets of Oltrano where i was often on my own.

i can't help with day trips from florence, but if you avoid the centre, you should be reasonably "safe".

Firenze was hot, the hottest day of the week. So we spent much of our time flitting from one shadow to another.

We liked the cathedral, and were amused to overhear one tour guide advising her party not to bother with the interior, advice that we thought bad, because we really liked it.

We didn't do museum stuff, because it was too hot a day for us to queue for anything. The one museum we had picked out as a target was closed, and we didn't have a plan B.

The Ponte Vecchio was well worth a look, but the shops on it were not particularly to our liking: Herself isn't into over-priced jewellery (that's one of the secrets of our successful relationship).

We got a very good lunch at a modest price, partly by means of taking the trouble to walk 100 metres away from the main tourist areas.

Five hours was enough for us, and then we headed back into the countryside and had a very enjoyable barbeque dinner at our agriturismo base.

It's quiet here now. Most people have retired for the night. In the morning we pack up and start our journey home.

Seems like there are some fairly smug folks on this thread . . . knowing better than the rest of us average travelers who can't make it to Europe all the time to be able to chill for a week or more.

For me, I'm a tourist. Back to planning my trip to Rome with all the "must-see's". I guess my Italian experience will be mixed in with <gasp> Americans.

indy - i answered the query in the tone in which it was asked, i think ie where can i go to avoid the crowds?

I don't know anyone who actually likes to be surrounded by tourists of any nationality. I'll happily give you a few tips about avoiding the throngs in Rome, if you like.

Thanks, pad and ann. Mr. Crosscheck has come up with a plan to avoid the masses. He has suggested we stay on LA time, wake up at 4:00pm, pop into a museum at 6:00pm for a half hour before closing, have dinner at 8pm, then go clubbing with our son all night.

Our son, when asked what he wants to do with us, said "unlock his Blackberry and buy towels." Sounds like both of those activities will get us off the tourist path.

indy, Italy is one of the most stunning places on the planet, but, sadly, many of its treasures are surrounded by loud, sweaty of every nationality. annhig was far from smug when she provided some excellent advice that I will copiously follow (except the part about getting up early).

Rome will blow you away - It is a magical place with many must-sees. But your best memories will be your spontaneous adventures -- discovering a secret piazza, the perfect gelato, or a killer ruin that isn't in your guidebook.

The last time I was there, there was nary a gringo in sight, but the place was flooded with Eastern European tourists. It was like a citywide Borat convention, and annhig's philosophy would have been spot-on for the first-time visiter.

To experience the real Rome, I would also spend at least some of your holiday adopting Padraig's enviable "no plan, no map" attitude.

oops - word missing: meant to say "loud, sweaty mobs of every nationality"

<i>indy - i answered the query in the tone in which it was asked, i think ie where can i go to avoid the crowds?</i>

I agree. I didn't intend to single you out.

<i>I don't know anyone who actually likes to be surrounded by tourists of any nationality. I'll happily give you a few tips about avoiding the throngs in Rome, if you like.</i>

Sounds good! I'm getting my thoughts together and will start my own thread eventually. I do need to do the basic planning of what there is to see, how long it generally takes, and how it is grouped geographically. From that, I can plan some unplanned time. :) Thanks!

cross-check - if it fits your body clocks, you might like to think about the palazzo vecchio, which in May was opening until about midnight most nights. I didn't try it, not being a night owl, but you might like to.

indy-dad - fine. I'll look out for your thread. of course the crowds in Rome are relative - you'll be lucky to escape them completely. but early starts will help.

annhig, awesome tip...a palazzo at midnight - sounds like a good set up for a detective novel.

Padraig, I'm inspired by reading your trip and it reminds me of one of my best travel lessons: the days when you just follow your nose are the days of great discoveries.

We are back home now, and quite happy to find it is raining.

We never did get a proper map - just a couple of tourist-office small scale offerings that were difficult to read. Things worked well enough except once. I consulted viamichelin for directions to Bologna Airport, and one supposed roundabout didn't exist, resulting in our missing a turn. I attempted a round-the-block adjustment to get another go, and got thrown into narrow winding country roads. Some of them were extraordinary - little more than 3m. wide between walls that were 2m. high, giving one the sense that if you stopped, you would not be able to open the doors. It would have been fascinating were it not for the fact that we were lost, had a plane to catch, and were being aggressively tailgated by local drivers. But we made it, at the cost of some wear and tear on my nerves.

One thing I didn't mention in my earlier posts: mosquitos. Despite using insect repellent, I was well bitten. We had a magic spray which relieved much of the itching.

We now have the same scenario as last Sunday: no food in stock. I must go shopping now.

Padraig - we had a similar car journey leaving Malaga airport when we were trying to find the road to Granada and ended up in a very dodgy looking industrial estate asking directions from two locals who turned out to be irish. even worse when in your case you were trying to get TO the airport!

sorry about the mozzies - you have been very forbearing not mentioning them. on our last few trips i have religiously taken the mozzie repellant and cream, but not met a single one. but at the end of the last trip I had to jettison the stuff to save weight, so I'm expecting to be attacked next time!

loved your report - the antedote to over-planning.

wonderful report, Padraig. We travel the way you describe in the US ( yes, there are many places here worth absorbing by osmosis) and resist the urge to over plan overseas. It is sometimes difficult, though, as we cannot go often and can get pulled into wanting to "see things.
Your time sounds wonderful, a real vacation.

Sounds like a wonderful trip, Padraig, and I'm very jealous! But enjoying your trip vicariously was a wonderful way to spend the time just before getting ready for work. Thank you for a great report!

bmk to read later!