Trip Report II: Food
 

This was not one our better eating trips. Food is shockingly expensive in Italian. We had very few full and satisfying meals because it would have been very expensive to order the full run of primi, secondi and side, wine, desert. Also we did not eat any real sit down lunches because there is no way that I am prepared to drop $30-40 a couple for lunch.

One of our best meals was wine, cheese and prosciutto that we picked up at the market in Florence. We also had a dinner on the train back from Venice to Florence, eating cheese that we had picked up in a supermarket in Venice. I can report that Italian supermarket cheese is no better than American supermarket cheese. Anyway, here was our eating scaled by the WETAI ("Would Eat There Again Index.")

Florence

Za Za (recommended by Spiral Guides. Near the market). Our favorite restaurant by far. The food was the best we had and the price reasonable by Italian standards because the secondi comes with a side, usually fried potatoes and marvelous marinated peppers. An appetizer, two secondi and wine was more food than we could eat for about 40E. We ate there twice. The first night we split a great tomato bruschetta, my wife had salmon in caper sauce and I had a seafood skewer. All excellent. The next night we had this great calamari crostini, a good chicken dish and I had ok, but not great veal. WETAI=8.5.

Trattoria la Burrasca (recommended by Rick Steves. Near the market). This place was an atrocity. I won't even go into the details. WETAI=0

Trattoria Casalinga (recommended by many guidebooks. Oltra Arno) For all the praise this place gets as a good inexpensive restaurant, we found the food substandard and the price not all that cheap. We started with a poor chicken liver crostini. My wife ordered something that her Berlitz book translated as stew but it was a thin, blah piece of meat covered with equally blah tomato sauce. I had veal scallopini limon, which was very good, but tiny. The portions were so small, that you would have to order appetizer, primi and secondi to make up a meal. By then, it is hardly cheap. The wine was the lowest quality of the trip. WETAI=2

Assisi

Locanda del Podesta (recommended by Rick Steves. Near the basilica) Ricky recommended the lamb chops and the sausage. The lamb chops were indeed outstanding. The sausage was a single, small, dried out piece of blandness for 6E. My primi was spaghetti pomodoro that I found unpleasantly acidic. WETAI=8 for the lamb chops, 4 for everything else.

Rome

Cavour313 (recommended as Fodor's choice. Near Piazza Venezia) It was supposed to be a great place to sample wine. They have lots of bottles, but there isn't much choice by the glass: there were only 4 choices of red and 4 of white. The food was good, however. We had very nice smoked trout with horseradish and a Calabrian food platter that has turned me into a Calabrian foodie. The cheese plate was merely OK and a bit disappointing by Italian cheese standards. WETHAI=7.5

Fraterna Domus (hotel. Near Piazza Navona) We stayed there, and they serve simple but cheap dinners, so we gave it a try. Soup was fine (pasta is an alternative) and the main was very pleasant grilled pork cutlet. Desert was fruit. Yes, they include wine. There was some other stuff, but I don't recall exactly what. Anyway, a real bargain at 12E. You don't have to be a guest to eat there. Reservations required. WETHAI=10 if you want cheap, 6.5 if you want good. Reservations required

Pizzeria Da Baffetto II (recommended by many guidebooks. Near Campo Di Fiore). We stumbled on to this new branch of the famous pizza place. It is just around the corner from the Campo Di Fiore and gives you do have a cheap, outdoor mean essentially eat on the Camp. We had pizza (what else) and antipasto. It was far from the best pizza we had in Italy, but it was still very good. The antipasto was OK. WETHAI=8.5.

Siena

Castelvecchio (recommended by Frommers. Near the Camp - but hard to find.) The food was what might be termed Italian Neuvo. I started with an excellent plate of assorted crostini and followed with pork in fruit sauce. My wife had an excellent seafood risotto that came with an approving smile from the owner that a wise choice had been made. The food was good, the portions very small and the price moderate by Italian standards. WETHAI=7.

Venice

La Piscina (At hotel La Calcina. Dusoduro) The hotel offers a 20E "light" dinner to hotel guests. It sounded good since we could eat on a dock out on the water. Sounded better when we discovered that the same meal ordered separately was 30E. It rained and we had to eat inside, still with a nice view of the lagoon. You chose a salad primi and pasta secondi. My salad was mostly lettuce with a lot of prosciutto. My secondi was a disappointing pesto pasta but my wife's ricotta stuffed ravioli was very good. The deserts were average, mine was ice cream and my wife's was fruit and cream. WETAI=8 if you can eat out on the water, 6.5 if you eat inside.

Unnamed Self-service of San Bartolomeo Near Rialto.) We wanted to do a cichetti tour, but couldn't find any of the places recommended by guidebooks. We spent a half hour futilely looking for looking for Bancogiro and then a place recommended by Rick Steves in San Barlolomeo. We finally gave up and ate at a self-serve right off the square in a little alley. We had had seafood lasagna, vegetable soup, grilled calamari and a shrimp sandwich (plus wine, of course.) The seafood lasagna was good and the rest so-so. 30E. WETAI=4.5

Food bests from our trip:

Restaurant - Za Za by a mile.

Best gelato - nameless place in Campo Santa Margherita (Venice)

Best wine - Enoteca Ialiana at the fortezza(Siena)

Best pastries - Residenza Cellini's breakfast (Rome)

Best sweetie - chocolate panforte at Nannini's (Siena)

Best mineral water - Residenza Johlea (Florence)

Hi M,

Well at least you had two good meals.

When I was planning my trip for my two teenagers and I, I was a little taken aback by what it might cost to eat in Italy. For us, a splurge is a $40 meal 3. In Italy, if we kept it under $50 for 3 of us we were doing well. (and we atually did have several good lunches for under 40E..you have to get away from the tourist spots)
W
e ended up paying between 45 and 70 E for 3 for dinners, but it could have been cheaper if we'd chosen to forgo antipasti or dolce but we just couldn't - it was all so good.

Meals for us took on event status, we would wait to go out later, read guide books, walk around past places to decide, discuss the menu...We had some wonderful meals, just a few bad meals.

One last evening we threw caution to the wind and had everything all the way to cafe and chicolate at the end at Tratoria San Toma. it 95 E for 3, which was relatively inexpensive (for Venice) and the kids agreed was just as much a Venetion experience as our 100 E gondola ride, but a better bargain.

My advice would be to budget for higher meals, get some good guide books like Sandra Gustufson's "Great Eats in Italy" and "Chow Venice" and consider it part of the experience.

The only downside is ever getting my kids to think Applebees is a treat again.

joelle

"food is shockingly expensive in Italian"
I guess you meant to say Italy, But where are your examples of that?
Where do you live? Do you only drink wine with meals in Italy because you can't get lunch with wine here in California for $35-$45 with 2 or 3 courses, let alone dinner.

That was my thought too, about the price mentioned for lunch. If I eat lunch at a restaurant here in Seattle with a glass or two of wine it would certainly be at least $20-25 per person. That's not to say that the family posting should have done so if they aren't comfortable with the price, but only that I don't think it's really fair to blame Italy as wildly expensive because you don't want to spend $40 for 2 people to have a nice meal.

I do appreciate all travel logs and don't mean to seem critical. Besides the specific restaurant reviews, this might help other families realize what they may find and possibly adjust their budget or expectations accordingly.

I was kind of surprised how expensive meals were too. (And I live in SF). It didn't seem so expensive looking at the menu, but when I got home and looked at my statements they were more than I had thought. I was reading someone's trip report here and was surprised how cheaply they seemed to eat.

Re: Baffata, I kept meaning to go to the original one on Governo Vecchio because I heard several times it was the best pizza in Italy. But the line outside was always really long.

metellus, $30 a couple is inexpensive compared to here in Boston. I rarely have lunch out with my girlfriends because I don't eat fast foods and lunch with two glasses of wine is easily $35.
I'm glad you had a decent time, anyway. I know I've have had better meals in Italy and France for the cost compared to here.

1. I have been to so many places inside the US and abroad in Europe and a good meal can be expensive everywhere...especially when you add alcohol.

2. Italy was far from expensive for food -- try going to London. We ate like kings in Italy, had nice size portions and drank alcohol with every dinner. Our bills were around 50 euros per night for two to three hours of dining. Plus you must consider that this price also include coperto or as we call it tip. I come from NYC where you must add 15% to 20% to your final bill for the waiter and service which would bring your 40 dollar meal (20 dollars each) to around 50 dollars anyway (46 to 48 to be exact).

3. You cannot compare the level of service you receive in Italy. You are treated with respect and the waiters/waitresses have personality...plus the food quality! I am getting hungry thinking about it.

4. As for lunch, stop in any of the little stores and grab a quick sandwich or pizza and you are talking 7 to 8 euros for two people. If you plan to sit down add the coperto and it becomes a bit more pricey.

5. Finally, the only thing that troubled me was when in Positano my wife and I ordered a small pizza for lunch. If we wanted to sit down it cost a lot more than to take it to go. So we took the pizza to the room, sat on our beautiful balcony and ate.

"Message: 1. I have been to so many places inside the US and abroad in Europe and a good meal can be expensive everywhere...especially when you add alcohol."

I'm not talking about a good meal. I'm just taking about eating. You want to go to a fancy place, it's a lot more. Most restaurants cost the same for lunch as they do for dinner, which is onereason that they are so expensive for midday meal. Maybe some people think that spending $40 for lunch everyday for 2 weeks isn't a major expense. You must be in a different income bracket.

Oh, yeah, and I wasn't including wine. I don't drink until during the day.

I saw no evidence that overall food quality was better when you consider the cost. In fact, that's one reason that we didn't do any major splurges. If we want to spend $120 (100E) for dinner, we can do a lot better at home.

There was one anomaly, however. Chinese restaurants were incredibly cheap compared to everything else. We didn't eat in any, but if you want to eat cheap in Italy, they might be worth a try for the odd meal.

"You cannot compare the level of service you receive in Italy."

People were friendly but the service wasn't anything out of the ordinary as far as well could see.

" I come from NYC"

Ah hah! People who live in NYC and California are living in the most expensive places in the US. Those of us mortals who live in more mundane places, and that's the vast nmajority of people, aren't use to $40 lunches and $120 dinners.

I'm liking Baltimore better and better.

And what mundane place(as you stated) might that be where you are from?

No wonder you had trouble in Italy you cannot read. I did not say anything about spending 40 dollars on lunch and 120 dollars on dinner. Read my post again!!! I said we spent 50 Euros per night on dinner and around 7 to 8 euros for lunch. Did you use fuzzy math to come up with your calculations?

What planet do you come from? I am an earthling!

I almost forgot. Where did you find the "chinese" restaurants in Italy? Are you sure you were in "Italy" or as you call it "Italian"? I really do not remember seeing a "chinese" restaurant in Florence, Rome, Siena or Amalfi -- Positano.

My gosh, Metellus was kind enough to give a run down of all the restaurants he tried. He made a simple comment that he found Italy expensive as far as meals go (frankly, as I said, so did I). Why is everyone jumping all over him? That will sure teach him to do a trip report!

For the record, I saw Chinese restaurants in Rome and Florence. I didn't look in Amalfi, Positano or Siena.

I have always found eating out in Italy quite reasonable in price.
However, I've also found eating and accommodation in the US incredibly cheap. There was a place in NY where you could eat all you liked for the equivalent of five pounds. Frankly I find this worrying. In order for food to be this cheap, how are the animals kept? How much are farmers being paid, not to mention farm workers? How much are they paying waiter/esses? No wonder the poor souls need those huge tips.

I dunno, but I kinda took metellus' commment "food is shockingly expensive" to be on the lines of 'it's frightfully cold out today.' Meaning it's not really a debatable point, since it is implicitly understood to be the speaker's own emotional perception of events.

However, I've no qualms with criticism provided it takes us all somewhere. Metellus hints at a valid point - ideally, costs have to be evaluated in a way that is independent of where any of us come from, since of course we all hail from different places. Would it work to express meal cost as a percentage of the local cost of a given category of hotel room? And how should we categorize food - should Chinese takeout be the equivalent of a one star hotel?

We had the best Chinse food we ever had in Venice. La Perla D'Oriente. What I thought was interesting was that the menu is listed and served Italian style. So we ordered fried noodles (like chow main) and a main dish and the noodles came first the way a pasta primo would.

39 E for 3, including anitipasti -(spring rolls), noodles, main dish, wine and pop.

And "inexpensive" or "expensive" are relative terms. So it's kind of silly to argue about what is and is not expensive.

Joelle

What strikes me as odd about this trip report/restaurant-food-critique is...why did metellus bother? Other than "remember to ignore Rick Steves," is anything he offered really worth noting? Or, was this just an opportunity to fantasize and/or vent?

It seems to me many people have the burgeoning desire to be Craig Claiborne, Gael Greene, and/or Tim and Nina Zagat, and certainly here on Travel Talk you do get your chance at playing Ebert ((N)).

However, a food report like this begs the questions:

1. Why would anyone take food or restaurant advice from an untested stranger, especially a stranger who lives in a mundane place? (Does anybody know how difficult it is to get fresh Italian basil in Ohio?)

2. Why would anyone take food and restaurant advice from someone who writes with no apparent love for the subject?

3. Why would anyone take food or restaurant advice from someone so preoccupied with (low) cost?

It seems every average, but reputable, food/restaurant critic, worth his/her sea-salt, knows that quality ingredients typically cost more, even if we're simply talking fresh versus non-fresh. I can't be the only critic who can taste the difference between butter and margarine, table salt and kosher salt, refined sugar and raw sugar, instant coffee and espresso bean, domestic prosciutto and imported, Häagen-Dazs and Sealtest, and the list goes on and on and on.

Yet, metellus went on to include his own rating code? Me thinks metellus thinks more of his own opinion than most anyone else will (as evidenced by some of the replies). Everyone is entitled to his/her own fantasy, I guess.

If we don't know the quality of the taste buds of the writer, or anything about the writer's food-tasting experiences, how can we possibly discern his/her comment's worth? We can't.

Some of my overweight cousins back in Ohio insist that Cool Whip tastes better than real whipped cream. And, <b>don't you dare suggest they aren't great cooks or don't know great tasting food</b>. After all, cooking and eating <b>is</b> their favorite pastime. Does this mean I want their restaurant recommendations in Ohio? No, thank you.

Metellus did get the &quot;expensive&quot; issue right and I think every restaurant owner in Italy would agree with him, and with sad reluctance. The days of getting a terrific three-course meal in Italy, including a very good glass of wine, for a mere $15 are long gone and those days aren't likely to ever return. One can look at the surge in tourism over the past 20 years for some of the blame but the most important reason is the Euro. And, in order to understand the effect the Euro has had on small businesses in Italy, one would have to sit down with a smart, small business owner in Italy and enjoy a nice, long conversation.

This does not mean decent, low-cost food is impossible to find, even in the bigger cities, but it does require more comprehensive research and utilizing a discerning choice of sources.

Too bad Trattoria La Casalinga never asked for its fairly recent fame. Before the &quot;chic&quot; guidebooks discovered this little jewel, she was a classic Florence trattoria packing in locals, day after day. La Casalinga wasn't interested in massive tourist business. They were perfectly content with those few tourists who sought this precious place out because of &quot;in-the-know&quot; word of mouth. Today, they are flooded with thousands of demanding tourists who are desperate to experience that elusive Florentine magic known as &quot;authenticity,&quot; which can barely exist once any &quot;local&quot; place is discovered. For decent service now, it helps greatly if you are a regular from before the guidebook discovery and you speak some decent Italian. Otherwise, you go at your own risk. I have never had a bad meal there and it's one of the few places you can get good, old-fashioned home cooking in Florence. This isn't Cibreo and nor does it pretend to be.

Too bad metellus didn't know about Brek Ristoranti in Cannaregio (http://www.brek.com/eng/index.html) where some home-made, cafeteria style cooking (some of it pretty damn tasty) comes to you freshly made and for a mere couple of Euro. I hear you can get dinner, which can include a generous helping of chicken marsala and a generous side of <i>risotto con radicchio di Treviso</i> and a beverage for a whopping 6.30 Euro. This is a great place for a family on a budget in Venice. They serve pizza, too.

Too bad metellus didn't know about Luigi Puntar's &quot;Gino's,&quot; also in Cannaregio. Most tourists foolishly believe everything they read about those awful, rip-off restaurants who flagrantly post a &quot;tourist menu&quot; at their front door, never to realize that some of them are honest and decent places for tourists to eat well and without fear of language barrier and/or breaking the bank. I've known the Puntar family for years and they're famous in their native Cannaregio, primarily due to their successful, veteran business reputation. Half the relatives live in North Eastern USA and all of them travel back and forth fairly often. The Venetian Puntars adore their tourist business because they understand how it feels to be foreign in a foreign land, which is why they post that &quot;awful&quot; sign proudly at the front door and write &quot;We want you to always feel welcome&quot; on each and every menu. They don't pretend to be anything fancy or cater to the culinary elite. All they care about is feeding the hungry and making the tourist feel comfortable and at home, and they've been doing it successfully for many, many years. The menu offers a little bit of everything, including twelve choices of beer, five variations of penne and eight versions of salad but, Gino's is mostly famous for their pizza. A large, tasty pizza Amatriciana, covered with brie, arugula, artichokes, and truffles (more $) and served with a coca-cola will set you back 13.50 Euro.

For something a bit more up-scale (but still affordable) visit Luigi's &quot;Pedrocchi&quot; in Campo San Geremia.

Too bad metellus didn't know about Il Paradiso Perduto, where you can enjoy a very tasty lasagne and a fabulous grilled <i>insalata mista</i> for another whopping 13.50 Euro.

Too bad metellus didn't work his way to Vino Vino, where he could have enjoyed a wonderful three-course selection of cicheti, three glasses of terrific wine, and a bottle of water for the very steep price of 23 Euro.

Even at Trattoria San Toma, with their famous selection of delicious pastas or their proscuitto/arugula pizza, it's very easy to dine here for under 20 Euro.

The secret to finding good, cheap eats in NYC is you have to know where to go, and you'll be hard pressed to find many of these places in NYC guidebooks (although Zagats is pretty comprehensive). You practically have to know someone from each and every neighborhood and find out their favorite dish. The same is true in Italy.

ttt

NYFS: I read with interest your paragraph on Trattoria La Casalinga. I &quot;discovered&quot; it in the early 1980s when a friend and I were at a bar near the Pitti Palace and asked the busboy who replenished our olive dish &quot;where do you eat?&quot; He told us &quot;La Casalinga&quot; and pointed the way. I'll never forget that first meal: penne arrabbiata, roast chicken to dream about with crisp , slightly salty skin covering the moist and tender meat and potatoes, perfectly roasted with garlic and rosemary. The service was great and friendly and the whole place had a comfortable, convivial atmosphere.Iwent back a couple of years later. At that time, it had made it into a couple of guide books. The food was fine, but due to the line at the door, the service a bit rushed. Then, a few years after that, when it was in all the guidebooks, my husband and I stopped in for lunch. A tour group was shoved into one corner of the restaurant, the rest of the patrons were all tourists, and the food, what we got since they forgot half of our order, was abysmal. The owners didn't seem to enjoy the popularity of their business, they screamed at each other and the staff the whole time. To me, the best meals aren't usually found in guidebooks now.

I agree that the prices people are quoting don;t seem high to me. Here even in a modest neighborhood restaurant a meal for two with a shared appetizer, two main courses, a glass of wine each, and coffee with tip and tax will be at least $60. Perhaps its just the difference betwwen eating in a small town and in a world capitol - of course the latter is going to be more expensive.

A simple way to cut meal costs is just not to have a major meal at lunch - at home who ever eats multi-course cooked meals for both lunch and dinner anyway? For lunch just go into a local cafe or trattoria and have a sandwich or pizza - or share a salad and each have a pasta. IMHO this is a much more normal amount of food if you're going to have a big dinner.

Hi NYFS,

Very interesting post (rant? ;))

&gt;pizza Amatriciana, covered with brie, arugula, artichokes, and truffles ...&lt;

Brie? and a Coke?

Ira, I'm not sure what your question is. Do you think that just because a slice of pizza has brie (or truffles) on it that wine (maybe) should be the beverage of choice? Try telling that to a 23-year-old at lunch and all the Italians who love Coke with their pizza (regardless of the toppings).

Okay, NYC, I'll bite (no pun intended.)

Q: Why would anyone take restaurant or food advice from an untested stranger?

A: For the same reason that they consult tripadvisor.com for hotel reviews. The strong desire for free exchange of information between the general public, as opposed to 'experts', is why messageboards such as Fodors and tripadvisor are so successful. The operative word here being information, not advice.

Q: Why would anyone take advice from someone with no apparent love for the subject?

A: Again, the caveat here is that information on messageboards is just that, information. I think we can give due credit to at least the majority of readers of this board that they can figure that out for themselves.

Plus, if what you and Grinisa say is true about guidebook authors (who presumably would meet your criteria as having love for their subject) they aren't necessarily any more informative than an &quot;untested stranger&quot; about the experience of eating out in Venice.

Q: Why would anyone take advice from someone so obsessed with low cost?

A: Because we're all entitled to our obsessions.

Regarding metellus' rating code, I think it is understood that this is meaningful only insofar as it is relative to him. It has no inherent objective value, any more than your own qualitative descriptions of 'tasty' or 'wonderful' have any absolute objective value. It's just a relative scale of one person's personal reaction. Actually, I thought it rather creative of him to come up with something other than 'good' or 'very good' as a way of rating his preferences.

Hi NYCFS,

My taste buds are trying to encompass the taste of Brie (a very strong flavor) with pizza, but I'm not a cutting edge sort of person.

As far as the Coke goes, I should expect that Italian soft drinkd would be more complementary as well as cheaper.

Well, Sue, you can put your bicuspid sharpener away. :-d My three questions were meant to be simple food for thought (all pun intended).

Of course, I fully encourage a continued free-flow of information (even if it's useless) and nothing I say would make anyone stop, I'm sure. I love the internet! If you read my writing carefully, I <b>never</b> try to control people or their actions or tell them what to do but I do ask them to consider a second look.

What one sees as they enter a hotel room is much easier to describe in words than the complexities one experiences on the front, middle, and back of their tongue. Room size, bed size, drapery color, view or no view, and description of furniture are universal images even though some people bring these images to life better than others because they're good writers.

But, food and taste-sensation is quite another thing and the intention of my &quot;rant&quot; was to remind people of those complexities or, even, that they exist.

I don't think there was anything creative about metellus' overuse of the words good, great, and blah and pretty much ending there. Even &quot;Calabrian foodie&quot; didn't tell me much. Yet, he did get creative with his ratings. I'll take more thoughtful food descriptions over creative ratings any day.

And, yes, we're all entitled to our obsessions. By all means, carry on folks!

Personally, I find obsessions irritating and I question their health benefit. Plus, I think obsessing about finding good, low-cost food to eat in Italy will simply invite more unhappy frustration. And, obsessing about such things on travel forums feeds the bigger problem of discouraging anyone to reveal a true &quot;find&quot; to avoid it from becoming another over-crowded, less-than-satisfactory, low-cost choice to choose from. Unfortunately, the majority of tourists just happen to be in search of the same holy grail. Hey, but who am I to try to fix what's wrong with the world or travel forums? I'll just keep my low-cost restaurant secrets between me and Grinisa.

Well, I (as usual) am keeping well out of this fray, but I'm printing out NYCFS's restaurant list right now!

Byrd

Having just returned from three weeks in Europe I still have receipts that will attest to the fact that London takes the cake in the food department ... 32.00 Pounds (at nearly $2.00 to the pound) for hamburgers, fries, and beer (oen each) for two ... and that at a small neighborhood restaurant that we tried simply because we &quot;wanted a quick bite to eat&quot; on our way to the Whitechapel Gallery.

I understand what you mean when you talk about not being able to order all of the courses offered in the Italian menus ... but would you really want all that food? We usually ordered an antipasta course, pasta, and either a salad or dessert ... oh yes, wine. Our bills were usually arund 30 to 40 Euros. I have heard it is considered bad form to order only one course, but I doubt that you MUST order them all.

Our best meal during the trip (perhaps ever) was salads, pizza, and liberal amounts of wine at a small cafe/bar at near Piazza del Michaelangelo in Florence ... timed it to coincide with the sunset and enjoyed a wonderful view and a very leisurely meal.

NYC

It is possible that many of the misunderstandings that you and I have had are due to the nature of the medium which we share, for on the Internet neither of us can hear the other's tone of voice or read her face. And I do acknowledge from our more recent encounters that you intend no harm. That said, I agree that second looks are important, and hope that you will accept an invitation to take a second look at what you wrote. I do mean it as an invitation - pay no attention to that bicuspid sharpener in my left hand....

First, much of your commentary was about the **person** who posted this thread, as opposed to the substance of his review. For example, in much of your post you refer to metellus in the third person. This to me doesn't sound like an innocent invitation to him to take a second look as you claimed, since by using the third person you did not address your remarks to him but to the board. Furthermore, given that you strongly disagreed with his observations, this third-person reference amounted to inviting the board to collude with you against him. Maybe you feel he deserves censure, but you are asking an awful lot of me to equate an attempt to censure someone with kind encouragement.

Second, when you make statements like &quot;too bad metellus didn't know [this or that]&quot; you have not proven that his lack of knowledge was responsible for his poor experiences, your 'too bads' notwithstanding. There are many possible explanations why we react to food the way we do, and yes, our own expertise, not to mention our expectations cannot be ruled out as explanations. However, you can't argue that metellus' failure to acquire enough knowledge and expertise, ie. work hard enough to have a good time was the cause of his flawed vacation, since the opportunity to goof off, i.e. stop working so damned hard, is precisely why many of us go on vacation in the first place.

Admittedly, many if not most of us go abroad with the idea that a European vacation is intended to double as something of an educational experience, and yes, getting the best education possible requires work. However, might I state for the record that a magnitude factor is at play here - it is one thing to have to peruse a few recent guidebooks to find a good restaurant in one's price category, and quite another to have it maintained, as you do, that 'all' one has to do to find a good meal is ferret out what amount to state secrets to which only a handful of anointed ones are somehow privileged. If what you say is true then it favours, rather than disputes, metellus' contention that satisfying food is elusive in Italy.

Speaking for myself, I'm willing to do a little research, but within reason - otherwise, I'll simply stuff my daypack full of Pop-Tarts and be done with it. :)

As it is, NYC, you do seem to be quite knowledgeable, and certainly nobody can doubt the sincerity of your affection for Italy. Therefore, I'll happily give you the recognition you deserve, but only if you submit your knowledge to being taken on its own merits, rather than at someone else's expense.

Pop-Tarts??? YUK! May I suggest you try a Double Chocolate Zone Perfect bar (and feel free to let me know what you think).

I'll admit, I'm stymied, Sue. Is it possible to ever over analyze?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't think of anonymous posters on any internet forum as real people. If I did, I don't think I could participate because too many of these posters are just too ugly to consider as human (even though I know they are). At least fodors requires some decorum. The foul, curse-word insults on some of the Apple and photography boards is unbelievable. It's definitely search at your own risk.

So, whether first, second, or third person, none of that matters to me and I have no hidden agenda or ulterior motive. I'm not writing a Masters thesis for a Harvard English professor and nor am I looking to get my travel musings published in the new England Journal of Medicine.

Frankly, my writing style here is simply how I choose to present my opinion and travel observations using my online personality known as NYCFoodSnob, and I write as I think (without the lovely assistance of a professional editor). Some of the finest writers and writing teachers recommend writing as you think.

I think enough smart readers out there know, in human terms, I haven't a mean bone in my entire body and I treat all people I meet in public with respect (even if I discover you're not human after all). Nothing I write hear should ever be interpreted as mean-spirited or having malice intent, regardless of how caustic it sounds. It's simply my style.

<i>&quot;This to me doesn't sound like an innocent invitation to him to take a second look as you claimed, since by using the third person you did not address your remarks to him but to the board.&quot;</i>

Oh, please, dear Sue, I find semantics (and people who engage) <b>really</b> boring. I love the English language (as much as I do French and Italian) but let's not get carried away.

There's nothing innocent about me anymore because I'm an old broad with my share of world-travel battle scars. And, yes, I'm almost always addressing the board and not the OP, even if I use the OP's name throughout my commentary. When I write to someone directly, I try to make it very obvious.

<i>&quot;...given that you strongly disagreed with his observations...&quot;</i>

I did no such thing. I merely expressed how his observations affected me.

<i>&quot;...this third-person reference amounted to inviting the board to collude with you against him.&quot;</i>

Nonsense. I do not participate in collusive activity, whatsoever.

<i>&quot;Maybe you feel he deserves censure&quot;</i>

As long as a poster doesn't attack another with curse words, I do not feel anybody deserves censure, regardless of what they have to say about bland, over-priced food in Italy (or anything else for that matter).

<i>&quot;Second, when you make statements like &quot;too bad metellus didn't know [this or that]&quot; you have not proven that his lack of knowledge was responsible for his poor experiences&quot;</i>

Did I mention over analyzing? I'm never out to prove anything when I contribute here and nor do I care about all the possible explanations for something. Please, I've had enough experience with drugs.

<i>&quot;However, you can't argue that metellus' failure to acquire enough knowledge and expertise, ie. work hard enough to have a good time was the cause of his flawed vacation, since the opportunity to goof off, i.e. stop working so damned hard, is precisely why many of us go on vacation in the first place.&quot;</i>

Oh, Sue, relax. I wasn't arguing for anything. I think it's time for the treadmill (for me, that is).

<i>&quot;However, might I state for the record that a magnitude factor is at play here...&quot;</i>

Say what? OK, Sue, if we really care about proper English and post positive conjunctions, your sentence needs to read, &quot;May I, however, state for the record...&quot; but I have no desire to teach English here since I write, too, without a professional editors help. But, &quot;magnitude factor?&quot; I mean, really? Maybe you <i>should</i> join me on the treadmill. O:)

<i>&quot;...it is one thing to have to peruse a few recent guidebooks to find a good restaurant in one's price category, and quite another to have it maintained, as you do, that 'all' one has to do to find a good meal is ferret out what amount to state secrets to which only a handful of anointed ones are somehow privileged.&quot;</i>

Nobody has to be <i>privileged</i> and/or <i>anointed</i> (presumably by the Pope) to chummy up to numerous local businesspersons and ask them where they prefer to eat and/or what is their favorite dish. A little common sense can turn every tourist into Inspector Clouseau. Of course, speaking the local language and participating in a real conversation can reveal much more than anyone could possibly imagine.

NYFS, thanks for including me--you can send that list along any time now. I just want to clarify my earlier statement regarding guidebooks. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a good place to eat in a guidebook, certainly there are plenty of decent places that are listed in many different books and maintain their quality. Checchino dal 1887 comes to mind. It is commonly referred to as one of Rome's best restaurants in numerous guides, both general and food related, and in my opinion, it is. However, Checchino has the &quot;advantage&quot; of being in Testaccio, on a back street next to closed stockyards, serves offal and is expensive and dressy. It is never going to be a place where a tour bus full of Japanese, Peruvians whatever will pull up and tuck in. Casalinga, being close to the center of Florence, between a major museum and frequently visited church, serving food palatable to anybody at inexpensive prices, well that adds up to an undiscovered gem's destruction by popularity. I still think it is difficult to find a bad meal in Italy, and you don't have to annointed or privy to state secrets to do so. Are you looking for places that are open after 8:30 pm? Is there no menu posted or even present anywhere in the restaurant other than maybe on a blackboard or handwritten on a spiral notebook that the waiter gives to you? Is there a crowd of Italians loitering around the door waiting for the next table or part of a table that they are more than willing to share with strangers? Is the wine served in a carafe filled from a spigot out of steel fridge in the back? Is it not on Piazza Navona or at the bottom of the Spanish Steps? These places are all over Rome and other Italian cities; you just need to do a little investigating on your own to find them.

I think newspapers, certain magazines, and some well-known restaurant-critic books are far superior to any tourist guide book I've ever read for seeking out good restaurant recommendations. I like the fact that Fodors offers a &quot;rant and rave&quot; option to its list of suggested places but I don't like not knowing much about the authors of these comments and/or their relationship to food or their dining-out experience. I wish registration offered a profile option. Before I accept someone's opinion on taste and aesthetic, it helps me if I can get a sense of their taste and aesthetic.

The one thing I don't like about the Zagat guides is they don't mention much about specific dishes, or often, don't say anything about staple menu items. Professional food critiques, even some Michelin guides, always include comprehensive information on what kind of cuisine and/or ingredient combinations to anticipate and often include prices for each dish mentioned. Knowing that menus change, a recent article or publication can provide wonderful clues and insight to help narrow down specific choices.

But, the bottom line is, if you want to know where the locals go to eat without breaking the bank and where few tourists tread, there's nothing like asking a few to find out what they have to say. There are plenty of locals who speak enough English to offer you the latest &quot;jewel&quot; piece of information. You just have to find a charming way to ask and be prepared with pen and paper.

Undiscovered and inexpensive &quot;local&quot; restaurants, that are worth trying, don't usually come with a serve-the-tourist agenda and typically don't offer menus in various languages or waiters who speak your language. Therefore, if you don't have a secure sense of adventure, if you don't speak some of the language, if you don't know how to ask your waiter what he/she would recommend, you will likely find the experience frustrating and scary. It does take more work to &quot;fit in&quot; like a local in a foreign place.

Lastly, I haven't a clue who Grinisa is but, by reading her comments about food on this and other forums, I can tell that she and her husband are people who enjoy masterful cooking. It wouldn't surprise me if she told me she's a very good cook, although I expect she's too modest to brag. In order to discover people on forums like Grinisa, it takes time and hours of reading research. I happen to think putting in some of that time can reap tremendous reward and make for a very satisfying travel and eating experience with as few flops as possible.

Thank you, metellus, for being such a good sport.

NYCFS, darling, Hi from your fellow NYC and love it.
I really enjoy your report on restaurants and would like to ask your input on places to eat in Florence, Siena, Sorrento,Naples, Capri-we prefer to eat where the locals eat, far from the tourist path, except for few dinners perhaps . I think this is the great way to really experience local flavor and spirit, not just for food but for hole atmosphere.....and also what to ask as for a drink besides wine(why so many talk about wine, don't we have Italian wine here in our G-d bless Amerika?) I have heard about oranje campary(I hope I got it right)..anything else?anyone?
Appreciate any input.
Chiao.

&quot;Message: I almost forgot. Where did you find the &quot;chinese&quot; restaurants in Italy? Are you sure you were in &quot;Italy&quot; or as you call it &quot;Italian&quot;? I really do not remember seeing a &quot;chinese&quot; restaurant in Florence, Rome, Siena or Amalfi -- Positano.&quot;

I guess you blind as well as dim. There are plenty of Chinese restaurants in Rome.

&quot;Author: NYCFoodSnob
Date: 06/06/2004, 02:29 pm

It seems to me many people have the burgeoning desire to be Craig Claiborne, Gael Greene, and/or Tim and Nina Zagat, and certainly here on Travel Talk you do get your chance at playing Ebert&quot;

That's really rich coming from you. Phtysician heal thyself.


&quot;What strikes me as odd about this trip report/restaurant-food-critique is...why did metellus bother? Other than &quot;remember to ignore Rick Steves,&quot; is anything he offered really worth noting? Or, was this just an opportunity to fantasize and/or vent?&quot;

I write to correct the snobby, arrogant and simply incorrect rantings of people like you.

&quot;As long as a poster doesn't attack another with curse words, I do not feel anybody deserves censure.&quot;

So you prefer just being snide and condescending and then pleading innocence. That deserves a lot more cenure than the odd curse word.

Metellus: What was on the &quot;Calabrian food platter&quot; that you mentioned, and hat was the style of the cooking? I haven't been to Calabria yet, and though I'm part Calabrese, my Calabrese grandfather wasn't the one cooking, I'm not really familiar with the food. I heard aout Calabre cooking when I was in Basilicata, but I wonder what was served as Calabrian in a more distant region.