Gardyloo

I'm a little reluctant to post this, because not only does it raise some potentially controversial topics but also because it isn't strictly about travel in Europe. I don't want to precipitate name-calling or elicit abuse against myself or others (obviously) but I need to share some conflicting thoughts about an upcoming trip and I do value the opinions and views many of you contribute to these kinds of issues. There, that's the disclaimer done, the term for which I believe is "prebuttal."

In three weeks we're due to visit Israel, to see family and meet with some people in the arts community with whom we've been corresponding regarding common interests. We'll be in Tel Aviv, the Galilee, and Jerusalem (staying in hotels - no room at the relatives') for only a couple of days each. We've been before, and are familiar with the lay of the land and with the logistics of travel in the country. We're due then to return to Western Europe and go on a first for us, a cruise in the Mediterranean. (There, that justifies posting this here rather than on the Africa/Middle East board, which is rather sleepy.)

However, the last time we visited (around 5 years ago) things were much more peaceful - the Oslo accords were in the wings, the "first" Intifada was past and the current one hadn't yet started; you could travel to the West Bank or East Jerusalem without major worries. We didn't ride the bus much, but we didn't stay away from the public markets, restaurants, all that. There was a lot of street life.

Now of course things are different. We're told that while people are living as normal a life as possible, there's an edge and sense of vulnerability that pervades much of the society. How could it be otherwise? The deepening blood feud appears to have no limits - revenge, vengeance, more revenge - how to break the cycle? If only we knew.

But the objective reality is that tourism in Israel is in the tank, and evidently many Israelis see the decline in tourism as being something of a "vote of no confidence" in their security services and country, and as "punishment" for government policies with which even many Israelis disagree. Apparently those tourists that do come are thanked profusely for having faith and loyalty. Or is it that their visit endorses Israeli policies?

Yesterday the US State Department updated its security advisory for Israel, encouraging American citizens to postpone travel. In the past they've advocated caution, and said to stay out of Gaza, for example. Duh. But now they're saying stay away period, for the time being. How long the time being might be, nobody knows.

We communicated this to our relatives and asked their advice. Should we come or postpone? If we postpone, we will take a financial hit due to air ticket penalties, but we'll probably be in Europe again this autumn or coming winter, and the new babies will be only slightly less new then. Cost is not a decisive issue. Our friends and family here are nervous, supportive, negative, scared for us, all over the map. We ourselves are scared, a little. Who wouldn't be? But we've both visited scary places (when they were scary) before and in retrospect it added to the rewards of travel. Had something really bad happened I'd be singing a different song for sure.

Our Israeli relatives responded with Hillel's old question, "If not now, when?" They didn't say it, but the meaning was clear: are we fair-weather friends? Do we perceive the threat to be so great as to alienate people we love and want to support and empower? Or do we cast a small "no" vote on Israeli policies (whether we mean to or not) by virtue of not coming?

Right now, today, I think we're leaning to go and not postpone. Tomorrow morning's headlines may change that tilt.

So that's the question I pose to my friends out there in Fodor-land. Maybe you've had to make a similar decision about traveling to troubled places, or about taking on personal risk on behalf of family or friends when others were urging caution. How did you choose? Have ethics or "core values" influenced your travel decisions in the past? How was it then and how after?

Thanks for your tolerance of this rather wooly question. I'm looking forward to any feedback. Oh, and those of you that are loonies, take it outside.

beth23

I travel to Israel often, perhaps even more during the Intifada than before. Unfortuantely, terrorism is a world-wide event now, so no place is safe. I think we've seen that here on 9/11 and recently in Spain. You should go now, shop there, visit with friends and family and enjoy!

WillTravel

I've know several people who have had recent trips and were very glad they went to Israel right now.

Statistically, attack in Israel are likely to be smaller-scale and more frequent; attacks in the US or Europe or Asia will be large-scale and less frequent. (Although there was the attack last week or so in Israel that was meant to kill thousands with chlorine gas, so maybe the above isn't quite accurate.)

But a terrorist attack really could happen anywhere. My personal feeling would be to avoid public buses and just accept the cost of cabs.

mirela

So far, the only thing that has dictated my and my family's travel plans are much too mundane: money and time off.

Of course, as you've said, I too was lucky that in 20+ years of travel nothing bad ever happened to me or mine; otherwise I'm sure I would have different opinions on this topic.

If your heart and mind both say "go" then go; the world does not seem to become any saner anytime soon anyway.

ncgrrl

Posting from the safety of my home, I'd say go. You can't predict what's going to happen. If you could, would you please buy me a lottery ticket.

Since you have relatives there, they can do their best to keep you away from the very dangerous areas. If there is anyway to sleep at the home instead of a hotel (I since a hotel is more of a target than a private home) I would try. I'm not a big fan of bunking with relatives, but it might be worth it in this situation.

Yes, the situation is bad now, but it could be worse for the next trip.

missypie

This is a sticky topic but I'll tiptoe in to say that I am Christian, and I don't know of any Christians who have gone on a "Holy Land" trip in years. However, my Jewish friends not only visit Israel, but allow their children to live there to study, etc. From this limited frame of reference I've come away with the impression that Jewish people may feel more deeply that they should support the country with tourist dollars, while others may feel that it's a big world and that there are other places in which they'd feel safer to vacation.

ncgrrl

That's "I sense"

Yikes, when I can spot a grammitical error, it must be bad.

sfowler

There are risks everywhere -- never did we imagine that a train station many of us have used, some recently [Atocha] would be hit in the way it was.

A year ago today NATO started bombing in Kosovo & Serbia. I was in Skopje -- exiting the next morning on a rather dilapidated train to Thessaloniki. I was never in danger -- but we [my Macedonian "family" & I] didn't know that at the time.

This summer my husband is scheduled to teach again at Kosovo Summer University in Pristina. With the resurgence of violence in Kosovo -- well his ticket would be covered by the sponsoring organization in case of cancellation -- but compared to last summer will Pristina be "as safe"? [Safe is relative: my husband & colleague were having dinner on a rooftop restaurant in Pristina last July and saw a puff of smoke near the power plant visible in the distance. It was a bomb]

Which is all a long way of saying I can give you advice about the Balkans -- Right now *I* wouldn't go to Israel [nor would I go to Pristina next week either!] -- but I don't have the connections "on the ground" in Israel to give me their perspective. And you will always be safer with "locals" who know the ropes, even when they are as badly frayed as they are right now.

BTW Kosovo looks so shaky right now that a Kosovar colleague of my husband's is talking about moving with her family back to Croatia where she was raised. This is a woman who has been serving on the legislative body and teaching at the university. That says a lot.

I guess I've used your post as an opportunity to ramble a bit. Follow your heart and your family & friends' advice. Either way god-speed to both you and your family.

robbiegirl

I have some of the same questions in my mind. I was going to send three of my children this summer to Birthright Israel program. I myself traveled during times of strife and was there at the end of the Yom Kippur war for three months. But there is a Travel Warning now and the thought of going there is scary..or not even for myself but to send my children there.

You have some tough decisions to make. I can see how your heart is saying The powers that be will protect you..but then again ones head says another thing. Good luck with your decisions which are not easy ones during this time.

sfowler

There are risks everywhere -- never did we imagine that a train station many of us have used, some recently [Atocha] would be hit in the way it was.

Five years ago today NATO started bombing in Kosovo & Serbia. I was in Skopje -- exiting the next morning on a rather dilapidated train to Thessaloniki. I was never in danger -- but we [my Macedonian "family" & I] didn't know that at the time.

This summer my husband is scheduled to teach again at Kosovo Summer University in Pristina. With the resurgence of violence in Kosovo -- well his ticket would be covered by the sponsoring organization in case of cancellation -- but compared to last summer will Pristina be "as safe"? [Safe is relative: my husband & colleague were having dinner on a rooftop restaurant in Pristina last July and saw a puff of smoke near the power plant visible in the distance. It was a bomb]

Which is all a long way of saying I can give you advice about the Balkans -- Right now *I* wouldn't go to Israel [nor would I go to Pristina next week either!] -- but I don't have the connections "on the ground" in Israel to give me their perspective. And you will always be safer with "locals" who know the ropes, even when they are as badly frayed as they are right now.

BTW Kosovo looks so shaky right now that a Kosovar colleague of my husband's is talking about moving with her family back to Croatia where she was raised. This is a woman who has been serving on the legislative body and teaching at the university. That says a lot.

I guess I've used your post as an opportunity to ramble a bit. Follow your heart and your family & friends' advice. Either way god-speed to both you and your family.

sfowler

Sorry for the double post -- it wasn't going through and I wanted to correct that it has been five years since the NATO bombing in Kosovo & Serbia.

StCirq

To the absolute horror of my friends and family, I went to Morocco (with a female friend yet - not even a man around to protect me ) in November of 2001. I had been planning the trip for months and nothing was going to stop me.

Admittedly, I was not the slightest bit concerned about suicide bombss or acts of terror IN Morocco, but I was concerned about being known to be American.

There were elements of it that were unsettling - Ï'll even admit it was hard at the time to walk through an airport with throngs of Arab men carrying briefcases and not instantly think "hijacker" - but after four days of incredibly gracious hospitality on the part of hotel staff, taxi drivers, shop owners, people on the streets, and waiters in restaurants, I actually felt better about 911. It actually helped to restore my faith in humanity, and in the end I will always be grateful for that trip because of that.

rkkwan

While I agree with all the above responses, I don't think any of us have actually answered or commented on Gardyloo's question.

He's not worrying about terrorism or safety. Instead, he doesn't want to go to Israel because of the Israeli government's policy - against something, but he didn't specicifcally says... Maybe it's the building of the fence, maybe it's the assassination of Hama leaders, I don't know.

Anyways, I think it's basically the same question as to whether one should go to China, which has serious human rights problem and still insisted Tianeman Square Massacre in 1987 didn't happen; or whether one should go to Japan, where history books still don't reflect their war-crimes during WWII, etc.

It's a moral question, not a safety one. I don't have an answer, but maybe some others have their opinion...

wills

Gardyloo, I wish you well with this. I thought briefly about going to Israel this year and rejected it because of the security question. Still, I wasn't going to see family. If it is indeed a moral question and not a safety question, ask yourself, what will I learn by going? There may be a lot there to learn.

MarshaL

Gardyloo,
First, I am pleased to see that the person giving such useful advice about the Northwest on the US board is so thoughtful and articluate.

The question of travelling to Israel is weighing on me as well. I have never been there before yet strongly feel the need to support the country and economy now. Seven years ago, my oldest child went on a summer tour with a camp group and fell in love with the country. My husband and I agreed that we would get there as soon as possible with the rest of the family. For myriad reasons, that trip has yet to occur.

Two years ago, my son and his friend were offered the opportunity to take the Birthright tour. The friend went but my son did not. What is so tragically ironic about this is that both of these boys have siblings (including my child who had gone to Israel) who were killed in car accidents here in the US within three months of each other.

Bottom line: My son's friend's parents came out of their tragedy "defiant of the gods." I, on the other hand, have became somewhat fearful; a sensibility that, most unfortunately and illogically, still pervades. I understand their spirit (clearly, we are all vulnerable just waking up, so why not play the odds) yet...

I am not going to Israel now. Perhaps if I had family there it would make a difference.

All of my best wishes to you. Please let us know what you decide.

flanneruk

As I understand it, your concern about travel to Israel is essentially a safety one.

If that's true, 'ethics' has to be a secondary concern. None of us would visit absolutely anywhere (you're unlikely to go to much of Colombia, Haiti or Sierra Leone, I suspect. You might not even go, by yourself, to South Armagh). Where you place Israel, after the Hamas asasination, on the spectrum of risk is up to you - but if the State Dept is now iffy about Israel, that must tell you something.

Now if you really believe Israel, right now, is at the wrong end of your spectrum of risk, you shouldn't go on holiday there. The argument would be different if you were going there as a medic, a peace-broking diplomat or a UN soldier keeping sides apart or monitoring compliance (where you could argue that the greater the danger, the greater the responsibility to go).

None of those things apply to you. And I believe you have a responsibility to preserve your own life.

FWIW, I wouldn't go to Israel, Iraq, Algeria, or parts of Upper Egypt right now. I would happily go anywhere else in the Mediterranean. I wouldn't go to the Caucasus or Kosovo. I'd happily go anywhere else in Europe or the CIS.

Gardyloo

Thank you all for your thoughtful answers. The fact that some of you can't decide if I'm concerned more about safety than "ethical tourism" is reflective of our own ambiguous feelings and dilemma. On the safety side, sure, we don't want to risk injury or worse, although, frankly, if you've been to Israel you know that the joke about the drivers being more dangerous than the terrorists is no joke, and statistics prove it. But does the current situation lead to more than "average" (whatever the hell that is) concern about security? You bet. And the thought of being in Jerusalem and being told not to spend time wandering around the Old City is like being in London and being told to stay out of pubs. What's the point?

No, it's the <i>combination</i> of the security issue coupled with the political environment. I do not want my tourist shekels implying my support for policies of apartheid and assassination - on either side. Nor do I want my absence to imply anything but steadfast support for the Israeli people, including blood relatives.

Absent something awful (which would probably result in curtailed air service, which would resolve the issue) I think we're going, and I'll report back. But keep your thoughts coming and thank you very much for taking the time to respond.

PS - for a taste of irony, if we <i>do</i> cancel we will probably think about going instead to visit a dear friend now working in...Pristina. Or maybe we'll pay his passage to visit us in someplace like Ljubljana or Venice. Yeah...that sounds better.

RufusTFirefly

If it was just an ordinary vacation, I'd say do whatever makes you comfortable--cancel if you want without any hesitation. There would be no moral/ethical issue involved at all. There is no ethical requirement that one take on more than the normal risks of travel when on vacation.

With family involved, it gets a bit more complicated. There is heightened risk over the normal travel risks associated with vacationing, but you do have family to consider. Personally, if I was in the position of being one of your family in Israel, I think that I wouldn't want or expect any of my family members in other countries to put themselves at increased risk by visiting me.

But then, I'm not actually in that position, so I'm just guessing.

tudorprincess

Let us not forget that this area of the world has been fighting and &quot;blowing up&quot; people for hundreds of years (possibly thousands?). It's not likely to stop now or ever. I personally would do what I wanted to do. I can't let someone else dictate my life to me. But that's the risk you take.

Nomadic1

A person should travel to be with their loved ones unless there is a direct threat against them. We are all in some danger regardless of our locations.

I spent the past year living in Kosovo and I have seen riots, grenades thrown in cafes, and numerous protests. I knew there was a chance I could get hurt but we all have choices in life and I made the right one.

Being in that environment has enriched my life and made me appreiciate what I have now. I know you will make the right decision, as you seem so smart and informed. Good luck.