Travel Safety in Germany & Switzerland
Jan 12th, 2016, 04:07 AM
#21
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I'm sure Rick Steves will have all the answers. But you could just as well ask any pot-smoking neighbor.
Your question was valid. All questions are. But the fact remains that shunning Germany right now because of one night of rampage on the part of SOME refugees and SOME others is close to insane. Anyone who recoils in fear at visiting a particular place that has had a particular bad incident is ignoring statistics and misunderstanding how things work in a practical world. So fine, go to the Bahamas.
Your question was valid. All questions are. But the fact remains that shunning Germany right now because of one night of rampage on the part of SOME refugees and SOME others is close to insane. Anyone who recoils in fear at visiting a particular place that has had a particular bad incident is ignoring statistics and misunderstanding how things work in a practical world. So fine, go to the Bahamas.
Jan 12th, 2016, 05:54 AM
#22
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"...shunning Germany right now because of one night of rampage on the part of SOME refugees and SOME others is close to insane."
The OP did not say she was planning to shun all of Germany - so why go ape? She made it clear that she wants to follow through and visit small GERMAN towns and villages.
What is INSANE is ringing in the New Year with your buddies by group-molesting young women in public in 3 separate major cities. The only thing more insane would be to ignore this insanity and pretend that a "one-night rampage" cannot repeat itself or evolve into further small-scale attacks. There is a REASON for any such rampage, and neither that reason nor the hundreds of perpetrators involved are going to vanish. "How things work in a practical world" is a mystery only to the willfully ignorant - Anti-social behavior problems need to be UNDERSTOOD and ADDRESSED or they hang around to haunt everyone.
Still reading, nana? I'll repeat - I think you'll be just fine with your small-town itinerary.
The OP did not say she was planning to shun all of Germany - so why go ape? She made it clear that she wants to follow through and visit small GERMAN towns and villages.
What is INSANE is ringing in the New Year with your buddies by group-molesting young women in public in 3 separate major cities. The only thing more insane would be to ignore this insanity and pretend that a "one-night rampage" cannot repeat itself or evolve into further small-scale attacks. There is a REASON for any such rampage, and neither that reason nor the hundreds of perpetrators involved are going to vanish. "How things work in a practical world" is a mystery only to the willfully ignorant - Anti-social behavior problems need to be UNDERSTOOD and ADDRESSED or they hang around to haunt everyone.
Still reading, nana? I'll repeat - I think you'll be just fine with your small-town itinerary.
Jan 12th, 2016, 06:37 AM
#23
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Feel safe but do not be careless. Be aware of your surroundings and if your instincts warn you to walk away, follow them. They may be wrong, but you will not regret exercising caution. People have followed us in Rome, Geneva, and London, but we never feared for our safety.
Take your grand daughter to Europe for the greatest graduation present imaginable. It will be one she never forgets, especially with the delightful itinerary you planned.
Take your grand daughter to Europe for the greatest graduation present imaginable. It will be one she never forgets, especially with the delightful itinerary you planned.
Jan 12th, 2016, 06:46 AM
#24
Whathello:
How dare you reprimand the OP for an innocent question when your own vitrol is much worse and far more insulting. It's people like you who should be barred from taking part on a travel board. Take your bad mood and go hike up a mountain. You need fresh air to clear your cluttered brain.
How dare you reprimand the OP for an innocent question when your own vitrol is much worse and far more insulting. It's people like you who should be barred from taking part on a travel board. Take your bad mood and go hike up a mountain. You need fresh air to clear your cluttered brain.
Jan 12th, 2016, 08:28 AM
#25
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'I was planning'
-> looks like she has taken her decision already
'all over Germany'
-> of course...
'attacks of young girls by Syrian and other middle eastern '
-> racism here ? what does it change that they are Syrian ?
"refugees".
-> that one killed me. tell me how you decode this one.
Innocent question ? maybe
Misinformed ? Certainly
Badly worded ? oh yes !
OP racist ? Possibly
OP denigrating : certainly
Vitriol : yes.
Need fresh air for my brain ? what brain ? it was a gutt reaction.
-> looks like she has taken her decision already
'all over Germany'
-> of course...
'attacks of young girls by Syrian and other middle eastern '
-> racism here ? what does it change that they are Syrian ?
"refugees".
-> that one killed me. tell me how you decode this one.
Innocent question ? maybe
Misinformed ? Certainly
Badly worded ? oh yes !
OP racist ? Possibly
OP denigrating : certainly
Vitriol : yes.
Need fresh air for my brain ? what brain ? it was a gutt reaction.
Jan 12th, 2016, 09:19 AM
#26
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I understand Whathello's defensiveness. It's a little over the top; OK, a LOT over the top!
But the OP's question is *extremely* naive, especially coming from someone of a certain age who claims to be a seasoned traveler.
Why naive? Because it shows no understanding of the nature of risk. Every place is safe; no place is safe.
Shootings took place in Tucson, Arizona. Is the Grand Canyon safe? Is the US safe? How about Canada?
No one can answer questions like this. To ask them on a public forum expecting useful answers is akin to magical thinking.
But the OP's question is *extremely* naive, especially coming from someone of a certain age who claims to be a seasoned traveler.
Why naive? Because it shows no understanding of the nature of risk. Every place is safe; no place is safe.
Shootings took place in Tucson, Arizona. Is the Grand Canyon safe? Is the US safe? How about Canada?
No one can answer questions like this. To ask them on a public forum expecting useful answers is akin to magical thinking.
Jan 12th, 2016, 10:16 AM
#27
<I will take my concerns to Rick Steves, where perhaps I won't be vilified for asking. I have never been attacked in this way for asking an honest question>
Good luck on the Rick Steves forum. But I'm guessing the reaction there will be similar to here, if you use the same wording again.
Good luck on the Rick Steves forum. But I'm guessing the reaction there will be similar to here, if you use the same wording again.
Jan 12th, 2016, 10:46 AM
#29
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Ummmm, a few things:
No one really knows what the situation is in Germany because the behavior of police in Germany (and Sweden we now know) was to cover up the crimes.
Also, German officials and police have all agreed the the attacks on young women were organized and coordinated, but no one seems to know who did the organizing and why.
The people who are presently most worried about their safety in Europe -- with good reason -- are young men who look Middle Eastern or North African. They have been the targets of attacks and beatings in cities all over Germany, simply because of their looks.
The other groups of people presently most worried about their safety in Europe are Jews and police personnel. Jews have been warned not to wear yarmulkes (in Marseilles) and police are now the targets of assasination all over Europe (and in America and Israel too).
But overall, there is really very little any individual Westerner can do, whether traveling in Europe or living in America, to protect themselves against being in the wrong place at the wrong time and finding themselves a target or merely an unintended victim of violence.
What would be required is changes in key Western governments whereby new leaders with a commitment to peace would drastically reduce the risks to all of us. Unfortunately, it is a long shot at best this will happen in the foreseeable future.
No one really knows what the situation is in Germany because the behavior of police in Germany (and Sweden we now know) was to cover up the crimes.
Also, German officials and police have all agreed the the attacks on young women were organized and coordinated, but no one seems to know who did the organizing and why.
The people who are presently most worried about their safety in Europe -- with good reason -- are young men who look Middle Eastern or North African. They have been the targets of attacks and beatings in cities all over Germany, simply because of their looks.
The other groups of people presently most worried about their safety in Europe are Jews and police personnel. Jews have been warned not to wear yarmulkes (in Marseilles) and police are now the targets of assasination all over Europe (and in America and Israel too).
But overall, there is really very little any individual Westerner can do, whether traveling in Europe or living in America, to protect themselves against being in the wrong place at the wrong time and finding themselves a target or merely an unintended victim of violence.
What would be required is changes in key Western governments whereby new leaders with a commitment to peace would drastically reduce the risks to all of us. Unfortunately, it is a long shot at best this will happen in the foreseeable future.
Jan 16th, 2016, 06:30 PM
#30
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Nana---I am a Nanna who planned to take my 10 year old granddaughter and 14 year old grandson on a driving trip in Europe. Like you, I have concerns about these children who I treasure and the responsibility--just like I would have on a trip in USA to areas that are having trouble. The recent talk about border delays, videos of hundreds of the migrant men running through streets of towns, throwing things at policemen, climbing on top of trains, the report an older Italian lady pulled from her car by migrants at the Italain border, the women being molested and attacked in various towns in Germany------it would cause someone to want to take precautions and find out more about the areas they are traveling with their children or grandchildren. You should be able to come on this forum, ask questions, and be treated with respect ---not disdain.
So many, many times a person asks questions on Fodor's and you have responders who answer rudely and arrogantly. If they have problems with your question and can't answer in a courteous manner, they shouldn't respond at all. There seem to be a few that write with contempt regularly and I don't know why Fodor's allows them to be on site.
You and I will continue to research, and hopefully we will make the right decision on where we choose to take our precious grandchildren.
Wishing you a trip that will make wonderful sweet memories,
So many, many times a person asks questions on Fodor's and you have responders who answer rudely and arrogantly. If they have problems with your question and can't answer in a courteous manner, they shouldn't respond at all. There seem to be a few that write with contempt regularly and I don't know why Fodor's allows them to be on site.
You and I will continue to research, and hopefully we will make the right decision on where we choose to take our precious grandchildren.
Wishing you a trip that will make wonderful sweet memories,
Jan 24th, 2016, 08:05 AM
#32
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It was a fair question, and the OP had every right to ask it.
It was a fair response by Whathello. It was not the one I would have made but I am glad we have the right to make such responses. If someone was knocking the whole USA for one incident, I might well take offense.
There are times and places in Germany that can be dangerous. I have worked in an area in the US that I was very happy to get out-of every night. It would seem best to me to understand where and how often these terrible attacks against women might occur and take precautions. I would guess that Köln is on high alert. I have heard of no major recurrence.
BTW, the Rick Steves forum gave the OP a mixed response.
It was a fair response by Whathello. It was not the one I would have made but I am glad we have the right to make such responses. If someone was knocking the whole USA for one incident, I might well take offense.
There are times and places in Germany that can be dangerous. I have worked in an area in the US that I was very happy to get out-of every night. It would seem best to me to understand where and how often these terrible attacks against women might occur and take precautions. I would guess that Köln is on high alert. I have heard of no major recurrence.
BTW, the Rick Steves forum gave the OP a mixed response.
Jan 24th, 2016, 08:35 AM
#33
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It's amazing what people post here who know nothing at all about the situation in Germany and the occurances in Köln.
It was a very special situation. It was New Year's Eve, it was the Main Station and it was Köln. In Köln, it is usual that ladies are kissed and touched by strangers on the street in such situations. They go out at New Year's Eve and Carnival in order to get kissed and touched by strangers. It's a tradition for centuries.
It is right that things got out of hand that night. But if you play with fire such things may happen.
For a tourist, this is totally irrelevant. And of course, Germany and Switzerland is safe for tourists. And certainly much safer than New York, San Franciso, Philadelpia or any other large U.S. city.
BTW, my own son and his girlfriend were eye-witnesses when things happened.
It was a very special situation. It was New Year's Eve, it was the Main Station and it was Köln. In Köln, it is usual that ladies are kissed and touched by strangers on the street in such situations. They go out at New Year's Eve and Carnival in order to get kissed and touched by strangers. It's a tradition for centuries.
It is right that things got out of hand that night. But if you play with fire such things may happen.
For a tourist, this is totally irrelevant. And of course, Germany and Switzerland is safe for tourists. And certainly much safer than New York, San Franciso, Philadelpia or any other large U.S. city.
BTW, my own son and his girlfriend were eye-witnesses when things happened.
Jan 24th, 2016, 09:13 AM
#34
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"It was a very special situation. It was New Year's Eve, it was the Main Station and it was Köln. In Köln, it is usual that ladies are kissed and touched by strangers on the street in such situations. They go out at New Year's Eve and Carnival in order to get kissed and touched by strangers. It's a tradition for centuries."
If this was just "tradition" then why are 600 cases of assault being formally prosecuted? There's no precedent.
If this were just Cologne, why are there well over 100 cases in Hamburg?
These were not just random kisses of affection from individuals. 40% of the cases are sexual assaults. These and the rest of the crimes, preplanned on social networks andcommitted by 1,000 immigrants acting in groups, were robberies and other crimes. There's no precedent.
"For a tourist, this is totally irrelevant."
Maybe, maybe not. The perps were not checking passports. American Caitlin Duncan was attacked in Cologne (and btw rescued by a handful of Syrians.)
" ...if you play with fire such things may happen."
So if a young woman celebrates NYE w/ friends on the main square by the station, expecting the usual tradition (perhaps getting a random kiss, or perhaps turning one down) and instead she gets groped downstairs by a whole group of men and her purse snatched, well then, that's just to be expected, hmmm?
The facts are all in. The lying and the denial must stop.
If this was just "tradition" then why are 600 cases of assault being formally prosecuted? There's no precedent.
If this were just Cologne, why are there well over 100 cases in Hamburg?
These were not just random kisses of affection from individuals. 40% of the cases are sexual assaults. These and the rest of the crimes, preplanned on social networks andcommitted by 1,000 immigrants acting in groups, were robberies and other crimes. There's no precedent.
"For a tourist, this is totally irrelevant."
Maybe, maybe not. The perps were not checking passports. American Caitlin Duncan was attacked in Cologne (and btw rescued by a handful of Syrians.)
" ...if you play with fire such things may happen."
So if a young woman celebrates NYE w/ friends on the main square by the station, expecting the usual tradition (perhaps getting a random kiss, or perhaps turning one down) and instead she gets groped downstairs by a whole group of men and her purse snatched, well then, that's just to be expected, hmmm?
The facts are all in. The lying and the denial must stop.
Jan 24th, 2016, 11:51 AM
#35
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I've read 1000+ people complaining. And between 30 and 50 perpetrators.
Rhenanie and Westphalie account for 1076 complaints of which 386 for sexual offense accordingto LE Monde and several other cities have had similar problems..
What I find strange is that no clear information is given - so I guess we'll have to wait for the inquiry to be over.
http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article...2514_3214.html
Rhenanie and Westphalie account for 1076 complaints of which 386 for sexual offense accordingto LE Monde and several other cities have had similar problems..
What I find strange is that no clear information is given - so I guess we'll have to wait for the inquiry to be over.
http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article...2514_3214.html
Jan 24th, 2016, 01:23 PM
#36
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I've read the same things Whathello has read, and it's really frustrating here in Europe, getting incredibly sparse or minimal information. One has to suspect a coverup or just inability to get to the root of the problem, identify the suspects, etc. But I sure do believe it was more than the usual "kissy-face" New Year's Eve activity in at least Köln.
Jan 24th, 2016, 01:34 PM
#37
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<It is right that things got out of hand that night. But if you play with fire such things may happen.>
This is such a disgusting statement I almost can't believe what I see. You are blaming the victims. There is a difference between 'centuries of tradition' and sexual assault. If you had a daughter attacked would you be so dismissive?
This is such a disgusting statement I almost can't believe what I see. You are blaming the victims. There is a difference between 'centuries of tradition' and sexual assault. If you had a daughter attacked would you be so dismissive?
Jan 24th, 2016, 01:38 PM
#38
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My 19 yr old daughter and her two friends are travelling from Venice to Amsterdam on a part if their three month backpacking trip starting end of this april. They are all tall and beautful( seriously not bragging ,but my dd turns heads , long blonde hair, blue eyes , thin and tall like a model) .
They were looking for some stops suggestions, I suggested Berlin and i stand by it.
My daughter is smart, will be wary, just like she is at home.
They were looking for some stops suggestions, I suggested Berlin and i stand by it.
My daughter is smart, will be wary, just like she is at home.
Jan 24th, 2016, 01:39 PM
#39
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And while op seems overly concerned, it seems like the girls parents are a bit unhinged , way over the top, " may not allow" ,,,at 18 shes doesnt need them to allow her anything, she is an adult.
Jan 24th, 2016, 05:24 PM
#40
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Reports have been all over the map and contradictory from day to day. What's been reported anecdotally and officially about the perpetrators is that they are almost exclusively Middle East or North African immigrants. Federal police in Germany may be attempting to suppress and minimize the events of NYE in order to protect the ever-increasing immigrant population from backlash attacks by disaffected Germans. (Maybe also to protect the current immigration policy???) -
http://www.dw.com/en/german-police-d...ity/a-18998812
So what the press gets is often only leaked (and perhaps partial) information, like the leaked document behind this report:
http://www.dw.com/en/report-cologne-...tes/a-18999994
This article in German reports roughly the same info:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/u.../12870328.html
Reportedly there are now 821 criminal complaints being investigated for NYE in Cologne alone. 359 were sex offenses. 194 of the Cologne victims were men who were robbed or assaulted.
There were an additional 250 similar complaints in Düsseldorf and Bielefeld, over 200 in Hamburg, and a few others elsewhere in Germany.
I'm sure I misspoke when I said the facts are all in. I should have said this: there are enough facts in to understand that the problem was NOT caused by thrill-seeking females just asking for trouble!!
http://www.dw.com/en/german-police-d...ity/a-18998812
So what the press gets is often only leaked (and perhaps partial) information, like the leaked document behind this report:
http://www.dw.com/en/report-cologne-...tes/a-18999994
This article in German reports roughly the same info:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/u.../12870328.html
Reportedly there are now 821 criminal complaints being investigated for NYE in Cologne alone. 359 were sex offenses. 194 of the Cologne victims were men who were robbed or assaulted.
There were an additional 250 similar complaints in Düsseldorf and Bielefeld, over 200 in Hamburg, and a few others elsewhere in Germany.
I'm sure I misspoke when I said the facts are all in. I should have said this: there are enough facts in to understand that the problem was NOT caused by thrill-seeking females just asking for trouble!!
