zaksgrandma

I discovered that I can do a few day stopover on our way home from Provence at no additional cost. Since we are unable to get a direct flight anyway, this has become a very tempting idea. Our plan is to spend 10 days to 2 weeks in Provence and the Riviera and then maybe 3-4 days somewhere on the way home. We would not be seeing that country -- just a few days in a city or its outskirts where we have to change planes. So far, I have found routes that stopover in Lisbon, Madrid, Barcelona as well as various German cities (not interested in spending time in Germany). There are probably other options also which will not add significant time to the trip home. Anyone have any ideas for me? This will be in early June by the way.

THanks

TPAYT

Our choice is always Paris.

goldenautumn

Really does depend on your interests and travel likes and dislikes.

I would pick Madrid because I really, really like museums of painting and the food is great. I can go to Madrid for just a day without worrying I'm missing other things if I just do the things I like. Just dip in and out.

I would also pick Lisbon because I love its great cheap seafood and great cheap wine and it has this fantastic museum, the Gulbenkian -- but otherwise I can enjoy the slightly exotic feel of Lisbon without feeling like I should be running around cramming everything in. It is no time at all to get to and from the airport. But if you don't like cities that are a bit run down or gritty (and steep climbs!), you might not like Lisbon. (Side note: If you ever wanted to spluge on a lavish 5* hotel, doing it in Lisbon will cost you a fraction of what it would elsewhere.)

I just don't like Barcelona, although I can think of 2 museums there I haven't been to I would like to visit.

Although you wouldn't be interested in Germany, I would leap at a chance to spend a day or two in Munich in June. (Again, museums.)

goldenautumn

PS: If you pick Madrid, you also have the chance to spend a day in Toledo, which is really a world class sight and such an eye-opener when it comes to the history of Europe.

Michael

Lisbon

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/...th/4503713923/

HappyTrvlr

Lisbon is very special and in only four days , you would get a good sense of it it's environs.

zaksgrandma

I should have said, we love cities, we grew up in New York!! We will have just come from almost two weeks in the Provence countryside, so we will have done lots of nature -- we love walking, bird watching, drinking wine and eating!!! My thinking in to get a "taste" of another city-- then come back on another trip. That stopover at no additional cost just seems like too good an opportunity to waste. Goldenautumn, can you tell me more about your feelings re Barcelona. I was there in 1965 -- it was still Franco Spain and no Catalan allowed. I imagine it is very different now. What turns you off?

msteacher

Some info that may be helpful in providing suggestions... Who is traveling (family with kids, retired couple, young solo traveler) And where is "home" for you? And what interests do you have? Of course, almost every city will appeal to certain folks, but what will matter is what interests you. Personally, I'd jump at the chance to go to Munich or Berlin, but sounds like that would not be your choice. So you'll need to think carefully about what would be most enjoyable for you (and any travel partners).

msteacher

Oops.. Looks like we were posting at the same time.

annhig

zaksgrandma - can I also ask why you are so against going to Germany?

I know that it was vey different to the more "Latin" type european countries, [which I love too] but I suspect that you might be pleasantly surprised were you to spend a few days in, say, Berlin or Munich.

Barcelona [IMHO] is also a great place to spend a few days.

goldenautumn

zaksgrandma,

Someone tried to strong-arm my bag from me as I was walking through the Barrio Gotico my first morning in Barcelona (with enough screaming, I won) and my husband was pickpocketed in the Placa d'Espanya train station 2 days later. Although we have returned to Barcelona since then without incident, and we travel throughout the rest of Spain quite enjoyably (just returned from Galicia a few months ago), neither of us feels that the food or cultural attractions of Barcelona (I have never been a fan of Gaudi) make up for the extra measure of vigilance required in Barcelona. Even without getting robbed, we were aware several times we were being targeted by pickpockets in tourist areas, around the museums, on on the metro.

We are both native born New Yorkers who spend the majority of adult lives in NYC, and both have traveled the world extensively, to places much poorer than Barcelona. We presently live in Italy and spend huge amounts of time in Rome, Naples, etc. and feel the thieves are less aggressive in both cities and the cultural rewards there make it worth it for us to take the added precautions. We just think other parts of Spain have it all over Barcelona when it comes to food, beauty and outstanding interest.

That said, there is no denying that if you want to see a revolution still in progress, and a culture liberated to flower in language and native style, a visit to Catalonia is worthwhile. In particular, if you are staying 4 days in Barcelona, consider taking a commuter train into the heart of nationalist Catolonia, the beautiful town of Vic. One of the most moving places I have been in Spain is the Episcopal Museum of Vic, which now displays, in a gorgeous modern museum, all the Catalonian artwork that were hidden away from Franco's bombs and vandals. The collection spans thousands of years and is an amazing eye-opener as to just how cosmopolitan, pan-Medterannean, and pan-European Catalonian civilization was (and still aspires to be). The town of Vic itself is a stunning beauty (Gaudi used to go there to learn) and has its own Roman temple and several Renaissance buildings, as well as a good deal of Modernismo.

That's is about the best case I can make for going to Barcelona -- to see how the free-of-Franco region is working out its independence. And if you like Gaudi, well then all the better!

But do heed the warnings about thwarting pickpocketers and ignore the Barcelona climate-deniers that no NY'er could ever get robbed and everybody always "feels" safe. The thieves are pros.

zaksgrandma

We are a couple in our late 60's retired and quite active. We love music, art, walking and good food and wine. We are from New Jersey. DOes that help?

HappyTrvlr

I was another NYer who had an attempted pick pocketing in Barcelona and never in my whole life had it happen in NYC,on subways, at night, etc...Barcelona and Buenos Aires are two places I felt I needed to be hypervigilant the whole time and had attempted crimes against me in both cities.

msteacher

Given your interests, I'll vote for Madrid. But are you sure you don't want to reconsider a German city?

zaksgrandma

i think that Spain's poor economy is resulting in the increased crime in places like Barcelona. Is this less of a problem in Madrid? We have traveled in Andalucia but my husband has not been to Madrid and I haven't been there since the 60's. Neither of us have been to lisbon.

Sassafrass

With your love of Art & music, it would be Madrid with a day trip to Toledo. Spend time in the Prado - wonderful! Velazquez, Bosch - so many great pictures. See the stunning Cathedral of Toledo. See the El Greco's and Goya's. In the evening attend a concert and go very late to Plaza Mayor to see if any muscians are playing there. Go on a Tapas bar crawl for some interesting and great food.

goldenautumn

zaksgrandma,

You might give some real consideration to Lisbon given your love of music of art, food and wine -- provided that the food you like goes in the direction of things like grilled mackerel, octopus, other seafoods (including African flavors), egg dishes, dried cod. Portugal also has a number of lovely wines. If you like fine dining, it is great fun to splash out in Portugal, because prices are incredibly. (The Portuguese food of NJ trends very heavily in the direction of Brazilian rodizio, but there are also great roast chicken places in Lisbon where one eats for a song).

Lisbon is altogether the more beguiling place than Madrid because if its multiple layers of history and the uniqueness (and musicality) of its language. Fado is such an important part of the sensibility of Lisbon that it is very typical that unless one is hearing live music in a cafe or bar, one doesn't hear "muzak" of any kind. There are of course a lot of street musicians, but it is really a joy to be in Lisbon and not constantly hear canned "easy listening" wherever one goes. The silence in other places in its own way speaks to the respect people in Lisbon have for authentic music!

It's a great imperial capital of yesteryear, with glorious museums to show for it with treasures from everywhere. It is impossible to overrate the thrills of the Gulbenkian museum if you love museum going. Lisbon is now very much a faded, even threadbare beauty, and very inward looking. Lisbon typically has great weather in September, so you'd still be able to eat outdoors and enjoy evening strolls along the might Tagus, and even head to a beach. It too has a pickpocketing problem, but it is a much more low-key problem.

But if you've yet to go to the Prado and the great classics of Western Europe painting are calling to you, Madrid is a great urban destination, with some of Spain's best food and wine (much pricier than Lisbon's I'm afraid, and a lot more meaty-porky) and surely Europe's best museums of painting. Toledo is a place of deep fascination from every angle. Madrid also has its share of scamsters and thieves in its tourist area. Part of the problem for Barcelona is the sheer numbers of tourists -- cruise-shippers and Ryan-Air party-types that flood the city. It's just such a non-stop opportunity for thieves and they make the most of it. Another part of the problem is that criminal prosecution of thieves in Barcelona is legally impossible unless the victim personally appears in court to testify. So who will get robbed first if not tourists? Just a guess, but I suspect in the days of Franco that "secret denunciation" was the way things worked, and when such hated practices laws were banned in the democratic revolt, it created this pickpocketer's loophole.

Have fun wherever you go. If you pick Lisbon and like walking, pack comfy shoes with good traction (the beautiful tiled Portuguese sidewalks are slipper) and be prepared to walk uphill a lot (although the city has a great subway and a marvelous old-fashioned tram system that lends the city tremendous charm).

SydRubin

Hi Zaksgrandma,

You can't miss with either Madrid or Lisbon, given your interests. And I agree with goldenautumn on the pleasure of a side trip to magnificent Toledo. I'm throwing in my two cents on two other points: June Lisbon will be less overrun with tourists than Spain -- it is still a bit more off the beaten track -- and it also will be cooler. I'd go to Lisbon which I find both more gritty and more graceful, but you'll have a wonderful time no matter which city you choose. (I understand your avoidance of Germany. Me, too.)

Where are you coming from in Provence?

zaksgrandma

we will either be flying from Marseilles or Nice -- haven't decided yet. Provence is the main focus of the trip but when I learned that I could add a few days elsewhere at no extra cost I began to imagine possibilities......... After reading so many wonderful replies, I am leaning towards Lisbon