Jeff

As a relative newcomer, I read withinterest some of the postings under the " I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison" thread. Some were pretty clever, but there is a bit of elitism here, in that many of us who have traveled to Europe tend to forget how many questions, remedial or otherwise, we had when we first entertained the idea of going. Yes, most of us probably consulted a good guidebook, instead of posting the questions on the internet, but... I wonder if Fodor's could set up a FAQ (separate from the forum FAQ that discussed procedure, etc.), that covers the basics. Or we as posters could start one. The post/FAQ would include such basics as links to the Deutsch Bahn and Rail Europe websites, so we would not need to answer how long/how much questions. It could also have links to weather sites, so we don't have to answer what is the weather/what to wear questions. Finally, there could be the simple suggestion: If you have general questions about a city, country or region, see Fodor's home page. Any thoughts on this idea? Or is it just duplicating the entire Fodor's guidebook/website?

dan woodlief

The FAQ idea sounds like a good one. For example, for weather Fodors could give a few links - since nobody but a person living in a region over a long period of time can actually tell you what the weather tends to be like at a given time. Personally, I don't mind answering basic questions. However, I am sure a lot don't get proper responses because all of the forum users do tend to get tired of typing the same response over and over.

elaine

From time to time regular posters on this forum have tried making suggestions to newcomers, like "try using the Search function" or "it would be helpful if you worded your questions with the following information..." and those who made those suggestions (once me, never again) were accused of trying to RUN the forum, or overthrowing democracy, or being elitist imperialists, etc. <BR>As someone who was once a newcomer, and whose first question was one of the all time favorites on using ATMs, I would have welcomed any link to FAQs and would have saved my first question for something a little more specific, rather than "what can you tell me about using ATMs overseas" or "do you have any suggestions for reasonable hotels in Paris". But, almost every newbie gets at least one response, if not all the possible responses. <BR>I do think that Fodors should <BR>emphasize or highlight the Search function more. Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it takes a really long time, and the Search heading kind of gets lost in that blue stuff. <BR>

jaz

I SO agree, Jeff -- there is a great deal of smug condescension among some of the longtime regulars here. Those long, boring posts of theirs in which they all pat each other on the back and try to outdo each other with snide putdowns are pathetic. Perhaps they should try turning their computers off and joining the real world for a while. Some of them seem to spend inordinate amounts of time on this site -- why? <BR> <BR>If they don't want to retype messages, then may I suggest they REFRAIN from posting anything at all rather than responding with "elitism." This may come as a shock to them, but the world will not end if they don't post.

lola

I SO disagree with jaz--who can dish a "snide put-down" herself. The depth of knowledge, the ironic wit, the sarcastic (funny!) put-downs as well as the l-o-n-g and often fascinating reports and advice are exactly what make this forum so outstanding. People give of themselves in many ways here. They open up. They make us smile. I SO think you should skip the longer postings and go to sound- bite land at The Thorn Tree at Lonely Planet. This forum is for grownups with a sense of humor as well as factual knowledge. And most of us are SO grateful for that.

xxx

Plenty of us - - who spend too much time here - - and use too many dashes - - divide our time reasonably between answering the basic and mundane questions - - and driveling on and on about our esoteric travels - - past, present and future. <BR> <BR>Addicted? sure. Need to get a life? I personally don't think so. <BR> <BR>Today is an exception (the markets are closed), but most of the time, I handle two of my "day jobs" simultaneously (this, plus CNBC and the occasional buy or sell, not always in the right direction) - - pretty well, thank you. <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>me

Patrick

Recently through this forum I was able to find and once again bookmark my favorite site for general information and links to European questions. It is http://www.fortunecity.com/oasis/par...omplet_eng.htm Oddly enough, as you scroll through city by city on that site one of the links listed is Fodor's <BR>smart Travel Tips for each city. I find more complete information by clicking there than I have been able to locate anywhere within this site, for example tipping, and local transportation issues. There is so much general information available through that site, that many basic questions will be answered. I find myself using that site first. Why ask someone on this forum what the hours are for the Vatican museum, or how long it takes to go by train from Rome to Venice, when it is all right there on that site? That leaves more opportunity for personal ideas and opinions and descriptive comments on this site, which I find equally invaluable.

Rex

Patrick, <BR> <BR>No need to be "anonymous" with this answer. <BR> <BR>I think that the point of this thread will likely emerge to be that that "elitism" and "be-kind-to-novices"-ism can and should peacefully co-exist here. <BR> <BR>Yes, there are those other resources which get many questioners to the answers they seek more efficiently and without "bothering the rest of us". <BR> <BR>But there are still a whole lot of people who are struggling with how to find ANYthing on the internet - - and they land here, and it's like finding the promised land. There was a point in Abraham Lincoln's life that he was thrilled to get hold of A book, any book - - it was a book, and he was so thirsty to read any book. If he had stumbled upon the New York Public Library, if it were by some magic just a few miles down the road from Hodgenville, I hope he would not have faced laughter or sneers or derision - - to the point of driving him away - - if he asked "do you have a book I can look at"? <BR> <BR>Oh man, do we have books. And answers. And stories to tell. And if you want to know "Is there a train between Brussels and Paris?" - - it's okay. <BR> <BR>We have to be big enough to share the bandwidth; Fodor's is apparently generous enough to share seemingly unlimited storage. If something seems too elementary, too esoteric or too snooty or too sarcastic, well you know - - it's your mouse - - click where you wish. <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>Rex

russ

I am also a newcomer to this forum and I have to say that there is good balance of useful information and the funny/witty/entertaining as well. It is quickly apparent which threads are serious and which are meant to be humorous. I love that Jeff can express his opinion, and I can disagree (although the FAQ suggestion is excellent). The fact that there are differing opinions is what makes this interesting. My only problem now is that I have to add my name to the list of Fodor addicts.

jaz

Mr./Ms. xx is exactly the type of person to whom I was referring. Doesn't post any real travel advice, but always ready, willing and able to put someone down for anything they can find---------this time too many dashes?!!! Can you believe this? Didn't you get enough attention as a child? Most playground bullies didn't. <BR> <BR>I think you might be more comfortable on the U.S. forum, where bashing is an art form. <BR> <BR>

Rex

Jaz: <BR> <BR>Putting people down for using too many dashes? Jeeminy geez, Jaz (ahhh! what alliteration) - - I was putting MYSELF down - - I thought it would be transparent as glass that I am both [email protected] AND my real name (though I'm sure there are plenty of other xxx's at times!) <BR> <BR>and both identities wish you - - and novices - - and those to whose experience I bow down to (like the inimitable Mr. Haines) my very <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>Rex <BR> <BR>and I give plenty of real travel advice here all the time, wanted or not. <BR> <BR>(sorry for this little display of self-defense)

Cindy

Interesting post, Jeff. My view is that there are plenty of people ready to reply with good, solid information, and that is fine. But I think this forum would get awfully boring awfully quickly if the only posts had to do with hotels and train schedules. So I welcome creativity and the occasional quip. <BR> <BR>I have noticed something else about this forum, though. I think far too many people bristle upon even the slightest provocation. True, some people behave like louts, but I have seen many dust-ups where someone was taking offense where obviously none was intended. If someone had a problem with the Drunken Mom posts, for instance, there is no reason to keep reading hundreds of them, and so no reason to be offended. It seems that most folks on the forum are over 30 and ought to be able to respond to a disagreeable post with grace, class and dignity. As for those situations involving undisputed rudeness, perhaps the victim could simply take the high road and ignore the post rather than flame the perpetrator. <BR> <BR>Just a thought.

Jeff

Thank you all for your input on this thread. I, too, would be disappointed if humor was lost on this board. And, let's face, sarcasm can be very funny. Of course, a ";-)" or some such gesture goes a long way toward having fun and poking fun. Most posters make their joke without cruelty, so I am not really complaining about the sarcastic humor. However one problem that I have seen with the remedial posts is that they take up space. When I/you post an interesting or obscure question, it quickly gets pushed to the bottom and the right people may never get a chance to see it (without first scrolling through all the other posts, which are often easier to respond to and therefore, ride the top). Of course, this is true elitism on my part, to the extent I am suggesting my posts deserve more time at the top than others. Oh, well....

unimpressed

Elitism is being told by frequent visitors here to do a search instead of bothering them with actual travel questions, as they are much, much too busy posting poems, limericks, off-topic stories, and wise ass comments to be bothered with any mere travel questions. <BR> <BR>Who are these people? Just a bunch of social misfits who spend all their lives on a computer message board or escaping their real life by getting on the next plane to wherever. Get some lives people!

anniel

I have read this thread with great interest. I live in central London and I am humbled and amazed by how much information is given by so many kind travellers who are willing to share their knowledge and experience. Most of the help comes from Americans who love to travel in Europe and I always turn to this forum to read the most sensible advice I have found on the web. I do not find the advisers patronising or elitist at all. A big thanks for such an interesting forum. I only wish there was something comparable on UK sites.

Joe

The FAQ idea may be a good one, but from my limited experience it seems that by and large most people seem more than willing to answer and re-answer many of the same questions. I have only been on this forum for 2-3 months and I have tried to do a search on various things with varying success. So it isn't always possible. A case in point is when I was trying to find a thread that I heard about that told everyone about yourself. I looked for "Who are you?" and found nothing. I posted a question to see if anyone could help. An immediate reply provided the right answer. It was "Where are you?" So, a search doesn't always help, especially for a "newbie" like me. So, I really appreciate the patience of those that have answered my questions in spite of the fact they may have answered them already in the past. Oh yes, I have plenty of guidebooks, but isn't it better to have first hand experience about a particular thing? As for me, I really haven't found much elitism. On the contrary, most are extremely patient with many like me. I suppose that if I were the knowledgeable one, and answering a previously answered question bothered me, I would simply click eslewhere. As for me, I really don't mind if someone offers me the search words to use rather then replying to the same question again. Overall, this forum and the folks in it are extemely nice and patient.

Ed

Elitism? Very little. <BR> <BR>I've spent much time on this forum, rec.travel.europe and the AOL message boards among others. I find the tone here, of both questions and answers, more substantive and constructive than elsewhere. The absence of flaming is absolutely astounding, and the patience surprising. <BR> <BR>Yes, there's the occasional snooty reply and those that sometimes ramble in a personal, stream-of-consciousness manner, probably a couple from me along the way. Somewhat more often one finds poorly articulated questions, and those that could be answered quite simply in a dozen other places through independent research... if the questioner knew where. (Though one indeed might wish some folks would buy a book now and then at the start of their planning.) <BR> <BR>By and large, though, the vast majority of the questions are sensible and the answers helpful. <BR> <BR>In my experience FAQs fail in that the very people who should read them either don't know of their existence, or won't bother to read them. <BR> <BR>However, as a suggestion to those who may occasionally weary of giving the same answers to the same questions ... consider developing a website. It's relatively easy, and can be done with little or no cost. It's a great hobby, and you'll 'meet' thousands of people who are interested in some of the same things you are. <BR> <BR>In the meantime, even though we've traveled pretty extensively we've learned a great deal by reading the answers to questions of others, and hopefully our responses to other questions have been helpful to neophyte travelers. <BR> <BR>Once again, thanks to Fodor's for an excellent service to travelers, and thanks to all the participants for their generous contributions to our knowledge of travel. <BR> <BR>Ed <BR> <BR>

Marty

A point on searches--I try to use them as much as possible, but sometimes it is just too time consuming to search through all the threads that are retrieved, when all I want is a quick answer. Also, it is good to get new answers to old questions from people who have just returned from Europe.

elaine

Marty <BR>good point about the Searches <BR>giving you a flood of info, and some of it may be outdated. However, the other side of that coin (and the reason I recommend them) is because some of the older posts have true gems and uniquely helpful hints that may not be repeated, even by the same people posting today. <BR>For only one example, elvira's discourse last year on Paris restaurant behavior, aside from being humorous, is still very helpful indeed, I think.

nofan

Elaine, are you talking about the post in which Elvira brags about lighting up in the no-smoking area of a Paris restaurant? I wouldn't exactly call that helpful advice.