train scenery venice to montreux - does this exist?
 

Is the scenery on this route worth "seeing"? We have the option to take an early afternoon train or a 5:30pm train from Venice that arrives after 11pm. I believe the travel time is about the same.

Thank you!

Parts of this are quite pretty, but IMO it is really the parts within Switzerland that are more scenic. Between Venice and Milan is quite flat; once you get past Milan and into the valleys of Switzerland it becomes quite pretty. However, remember that in August, it is going to be light until quite late. The sun won’t set until about 8:30 pm and it will be discernibly light until about 9:30, so you will get a chance to see a good bit of this trip in light and hopefully a chance for a good sunset as well. Go to sunrisesunset.com

Are you sure the timing is the same and that the afternoon option goes direct (i.e. with no changes?) I did not think I saw this option on the schedule. I thought the fastest option was the Cisalpino that departs Venice at 5:30 pm and goes with no changes. (I am one of the people advising you on the 5:30 pm train). I always prefer not to have to change, esp with luggage, kids and the always-chance-in Italy of a delayed or missed connection...

I also would like to have as much time in Venice as possible, much as I do love the Lake Geneva area. I don’t know that I would give up the better part of an afternoon for the scenery between the two, given that you can see a good bit of it on the 5:30, and that you will have a chance to see some really lovely scenery when you get to Montreux.

Finally, I would also say that it IMO it would be quite dramatic to arrive into Montreux at night without any idea that the Alps are looming behind you and then walk up in the morning with that glorious view of the snowy Alps across the lake.....

Thanks Cicerone. I was not looking closely enough at the train schedule. I did realize that an earlier train would have a change in Milan, but when I was comparing travel times I neglected to add the layover time between trains. The train from Venice leaving at 2:51pm/ arriving in Montreux at 9:18 is 20 minutes longer than the direct 5:09pm train. Although I would prefer to spend the afternoon in Venice, I'm nervous about arriving in Montreux with a 6 & 8 year old at 11:20pm. If I would listen to people cautioning against over scheduling I would not be planning to take the Chocolate Train excursion early the next morning - but alas, I cannot be reasoned with!

If we do indeed take the 5:30pm train, would you strongly urge 1st class, or will we survive in 2nd? I guess I'm mainly wondering if 1st class would be that much more comfortable for my childen to try and sleep in, or if that really won't make a difference.

Thanks for all of your help!

Mm, well interestingly, I just looked at the rail.ch schedule and it appears that in August (at least for now) the 2:51pm train does NOT operate. It’s only running from now through June 9, 2007. I picked August 15 as a departure date, and see that there is no 2:51 train on that date. You might want to check this yourself; if it isn’t running, then your best option IMO is still the Cisalpino. The only day train the rail.ch schedule shows in mid-August departs at 11:30 am, takes 8 hours and requires a change in Milan. They may add the 2:51 train back to the schedule later, as scedules do change, so you may want to keep yourself flexible and buy tickets as you get closer to your date and the schedules get confirmed.

If the 2:51 train is avaialble in August, with kids that young I agree that’s a tough call. If you are by yourself, however, changing trains with 2 kids and luggage is not going to be any fun, so I would opt for the later train in any event. If you have another adult and you can each take charge of a kid and baggage, it might be better, but still the baggage of 4 people and then 2 young kids does seem like a lot; esp as you don’t know Milan station and will be trying to figure out where to go, AND keep an eye on your kids AND handle your bags. (Porters always seem thin on the ground in train stations to me, I usually cannot find luggage carts in Italian train stations, they are generally always to be found in Swiss ones.) I don’t know how far apart the tracks would be in Milan, they may even be on different levels, its hard to say (and the schedule at rail.ch does not show, perhaps the treinitalia.com schedule would show). If the Venice train is late at all, you may be actually running to get to your connection, with baggage and kids. Also, only you can really know how your kids would do arriving at 9:30 pm versus 11:30 pm. Also, where are you staying in Montreux? If you are close to the station, then the later train probably does not matter. If you have a ways to go (i.e. you aren’t actually staying in Montreux), then the earlier train may be better. Sorry, I did not realize they were under 10.

Whichever train you take, I would definitely take the first class train for several reasons (i) you will have assigned cars and seats and won’t have to hunt around for seats together which in summer (esp August) can be a real issue, and (ii) cars are larger and have a bit more seat room, leg room and luggage room. The cars tend to be less crowded as well, so if there are empty seats, your kids could try to stretch out and sleep in those. (Note, if you take the Cisalpino trains, even in second class you can make seat reservations, however I think you will find these cars much more crowded. I have never actually taken a second class Cisalpino, but that is what it looks like to me.)

I usually always take first class on Italian trains as the cars are newer and nicer; however on the Cisalpino all the trains are relatively new, so second class cars are not so bad, but still for more room, less crowds and quieter cars, I would go with first class. On the Cisalpino trains, the cars are generally configured with 4 seats facing each other on one side, and then 2 seats facing each other on the other. There is a table in the middle. Some of the cars have 4 seats facing each other on both sides of the aisle. On the regular IC trains, you may have compartments with bench-like seating for 6 people along each side, or you may have the configuration mentioned above, it depends on the age of the train. Second class tends to be compartments. If the compartments are full, it’s hard to sleep as everyone is sitting next to each other.

On the rail.ch site, the Cisalpino trains are denoted as CIS on the right-hand side of the schedule. Everything else will be a “normal” IC or EC train. The Cisalpino trains are extremely high-speed (almost like the bullet-trains in Japan but not quite that fast). Some of them are “tilting trains” and do indeed tilt a bilt as they go so fast. The regular IC or EC trains do not have dining cars, only snack bars. That’s another reason I like the Cisalpino for the longer trips.

As for the chocolate train, if I could make a suggestion for your first day, after that long train ride from Venice, perhaps your first thing to see could be Chillon Castle on the lake. Your kids (and you) will really enjoy this, and they can walk all over it. It is certainly the best presented/preserved castle in Switzerland and one of the better in Europe, IMO (I don’t have a lot of castle experience to be honest). You can even walk down from Montreux to it, or rent free bikes and bike along the quay to it (and bike along many other parts of the lake as well), or take the ferry (or another very short train ride, about 10 minutes). This might be preferable to making them spend another day on a train.

Hi Cicerone,

Thank you for the detailed reply! For some strange reason I have not been able to pull this thread up at all for the past few days?! All my others came up easily.

I realized that I was getting more train options for Venice - Montreux because I was using April dates, not August. I did this in order to get the prices to come up. I've been told that those same trains are likely to be running in August too (but I will definitely double check!)

I appreciate the detailed desciption of the trains and classes - very helpful. When would you suggest purchasing tickets/reservations? We arrive in Rome a week before we would be traveling by rail from Rome to Venice, then 3 days later Venice to Montreux. I have been told to purchase the rail tickets on the first day or two we are in Rome. Do you think that is early enough for that route in the summer?

I know the scheduling the Chocolate Train on our first day in Montreux is not ideal timing, but somehow my vow to not over-schedule this trip has gone out the window! Although it's a full day excursion, it appears to be on and off the train a few times - so I hoped it wouldn't feel like a repeat of the previous day. We plan to visit Chillon the following morning before leaving on the Golden Pass.

Thanks again for your help!

If you are planning on taking first class trains, I think a waiting until you get to Rome is fine, my guess is that this is OK for second class trains too. (I would try to take a first class on the Eurostar ES train, they are the fastest and the nicest.) There is usually always space in first class trains so you can usually even just show up and buy a ticket; my worry on second class ones is that in August they could fill up quickly. But I think if you buy the tickets at least 3-4 days ahead of time you should be OK.

However, you can also order tickets through Swiss Rail via their website and they will mail them to you. If you do this about 3-5 weeks out, they will arrive at your house in the US before you leave (the schedule for the Venice-Montreux trains in mid-August would be fixed by then too). They can sell you a Swiss pass or whatever discount ticket you may want, and you can also buy all the other train tickets for both the intra-Italy travel and the travel to Switzerland.

The advantage of buying tickets before you get to Rome is that you won’t have to spend time in line at a Roman train station in August to buy tickets, where there could be long lines, and where customer service is not at its finest, let’s just say. The disadvantage is that if your plans change, you will have to deal with getting the tickets changed or refunded (I believe virtually all these tickets can be refunded or exchanged). If you do wait to do this in Rome, you should ask if your hotel can take care of this, at better hotels with good concierge service they can do all of this for you.

I believe Swiss Rail’s postal delivery charges have recently gone up, you might want to check on this, if so, it might be cheaper to buy them ahead of time via RailEurope at raileurope.com. While RailEurope does charge a bit of a premium for their tickets versus buying them yourself at the train station, you need to determine if that is worth the surety of having tickets before hand, and not having to wait in line.

I don’t think, however, that you can buy a Eurail pass or a Swiss discount pass in Italy, and you will most likely want some type of discount pass due to all the rail travelling you are doing. I know that there are Italian discounts for rail travel as well, so some sort of discount pass for overall trip is probably a good idea. You may want to look into this, and if you have to buy a rail pass in the US before you leave, you may as well order some of the tickets as well. (I have not bought a Eurail pass since 1981 so I really don’t know, but my understanding is that you can’t buy these IN Europe. You can buy a Swiss discount pass in Switzerland or via RailEurope or the rail.ch site.)

There are many experts on this board on Swiss Passes and rail passes generally, so you might want to pose the question. I don’t really know much about it.

If you don’t end up buying some sort of rail pass, get a Family Card as soon as you hit Switzerland which will allow your kids to travel for free on trains, boats and all public transport as long as they are with you as a ticketed passenger. (This free policy would not apply to the train from Venice.) The Family Card is about US$15 and you only need one card for all kids in the family. You can buy one at any train station, you just show a passport. If you buy some sort of rail pass for yourself, then the Family Card for the kids is free. This may be a better deal than buying a discounted Eurail pass for the kids, as they will ride free with you in Switzerland, and as you only have 2 train trips in Italy (for which you will only pay the child’s fare for the kids anyway), the bulk of your travel will be in Switzerland.

If you want to call Swiss Rail the number is 011-41-900-300-300, press 4 for English. Switzerland is 6 hours ahead of EST and I believe the line is staffed from about 8 am to 5 pm or later Swiss time. The operators are very helpful. This is of course an international long-distance call for you so won't be cheap. You can also send them an e-mail with questions, take a look at the Swiss Rail website at rail.ch.

Thank you for all the information Cicerone. I plan to purchase a Swiss Pass (with free family card) before we leave through Rick Steves. We live in Seattle so I think stopping in his office is the easiest/cheapest option.

I've got another loop to throw at you...what if we fly from Venice to Montreux? There is a 2:00pm flight on Flybaboo that arrives in Geneva at 3:30pm. Then we would have 1hr 15 minute train to Montreux, probably arriving around 5:30pm. In Venice we're staying near San Marco Square. I'm "guessing" it's going to take about the same amount of time to get to either the train station v.s. the airport. I've been told 1 hour prior to departure for flights within Europe is enough time to allow. I guess I haven't asked when we should plan to arrive before reserved ticket train travel (not checking bags) . The total price on Flybaboo would be $476. total for 4. (It was $68. cheaper a week ago, but that may be long gone). I want to heed your advice on 1st class for train travel in Italy. So, if we went 1st class the total would be $448. total for 4. Would flying be a better option in your opinion - or more of a hassle and not a time saver ?

On yet another side note..I know you said you were not a rail pass expert, so maybe I should post this in a new thread. Since we will have a Swiss Pass, and a significant portion of our Venice - Montreux trip would be in Switzerland, could we just buy point to point tickets to get us across the border and then rely on our S.P. for the continuation of the route? Or would this not work with reservations involved?

Thanks again for the kind help.

I buy our Swiss rail passes at the Rick Steves office too. You will find the people there very helpful and knowledgeable. I would think they could help you figure out the pass/ticket thing if you take the train from Venice. The Swiss Pass should kick in at the border, but you usually need to get it "validated" before you use it the first time. This involves showing your passport (for each person on the pass), and getting it stamped by a railway official. From then on, you enter the dates for each day of use. In your case, it may be that the conductor can validate it for you---but this is the kind of question the Rick Steves people can probably answer.

The seat reservations are separate from the ticket or pass. And to answer your queston about how far in advance to show up for the train---as long as you are there before it leaves, you are fine. Ten minutes is ample to be trackside and look for your car, if you have a reservation. With the children, maybe allow 15 minutes so you don't feel rushed. Sometimes they won't even let you get on the train that early, though.

IMO flying that route is more of a hassle and not a time saver, and does not appear to be a money saver. Getting from San Marco to Venice airport will take you something over an hour by public transport, about 45 minutes if you hire your own boat. Getting from your hotel to Venice train station will take about 15 minutes by vaparetto or a bit faster by private boat. I agree you only need to be at the airport about an hour before the flight. But you only need to be at the train station about 10 minutes before your train. So between those two, already I think you are going to be faster on the train.

It’s very nice to think that if you landed at 3:30, you could make a train in time to get to Montreux by 5:30, but the reality is that with immigration and baggage claim, by the time you walk over the train station, it will be after 4:15 or so and probably closer to 4:30 (assuming your flight is on time, see below). That means you probably won’t get to Montreux until closer to 6 pm. You may also have to change trains, as I said before, not always fun with baggage and 2 kids.

Finally, in my experience, intra-European flights are just rarely on time; on average in my experience they are about 45 minutes late. And you are traveling in August, and in the middle of the day when flights have already had a chance to get backed up. So my guess is that you will not depart on time or will not land on time. You may of course have train delays, but the odds are much better that your train will be on time. The chances of the Cisalpino departing late are slim, as the train originates in Venice, so you should not be waiting for the equipment to arrive (which may not be the case for the Flyboo, it may be coming in from somewhere else, and be delayed.)

I don’t know the best type of pass, but I DO know that if you have a Swiss pass, you will be entitled to a discount for the Swiss portion of the fare from Venice to Montreux. When you buy your tickets in Italy (or elsewhere) for the Venice-Montreux trip, you will present your Swiss pass and they would work out the discount for the Swiss portion of the fare. You do NOT need to buy a ticket just to the border, and in fact don’t want to do this, as you would then have to get off the train at the border. Just tell then you want to buy a ticket all the way through, show your pass, and let the ticket agent work out the fare.

Hi kikianne,

Another thought on flying: most budget airlines restrict luggage severly and charge passengers for going over the limit. Before you decide to fly, check Flybaboo's luggage allowance and their fees for going over. Then weigh your packed cases.

Have fun!

s

Thanks Cicerone and Swandav. It definitely sounds like flying is out.

I appreciate the border/pass info. too. I had thought I might attempt the ticket machines at the Rome station for our rail tickets. However, if I need to talk to someone in person for this I've been told a travel agency might be more helpful and have less chances of a language barrier than a station clerk.

Thanks for the tips!