Fodor's Travel Talk Forums - Topical Travel Question

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Topical Travel Question

Last night while warbling away to The First Nowell in the Royal Albert Hall, London (trip, alas, nearly over), I suddenly wondered where, specifically, did the three wise men come from and where did they meet up.

Dear Anon, You were singing "The First Nowell"?!? I sincerely do hope all were well, and perhaps some were singing "The First Noel". In any event, the 3 Wise Men (also known as The Magi) met on the road, at a crossing depicted in art as being just outside the city of Jerusalem. All 3 had individually been told of the impending birth of a baby who would become a king, and that they would see and should follow a star in the sky to find the infant. In doing so, their paths crossed, and they traveled the rest of the way together. I believe that only St.Matthew (in terms of the biblical new testament authors, Saints Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) mentions the Magi, and states they came "from the East", which sure leaves a lot of broad possibilities for their countries of origin. However, in art history, Melchior is sometimes depicted in the garb of a Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologus, Balthazar bears resemblence to a sultan of that period, and Caspar looks a bit like the first of the Caesars. All are wearing turbans, to emphasize their "eastern" origins. Hope this is the info you were seeking. BTW, Anon---Merry Christmas!

Esme, I may be mistaken, but I think in Britain it's called "nowell."

Since they are often referred to as the Magi and the Magi was a Persian religious caste (devoted to the practice of religion), then my understanding was that they came from the area of Iran/Persia. Who knows where they met up? Merry Christmas : )

For an interesting fictional account of the Wise Men, read The Road to Bethlehem by Norah Lofts.

For a fictional account of the story stick with the bible.

A fool and his god are soon parted. ; )

Now can anyone tell us why the habit of wrapping gifts came about since the first gifts from the Wise men weren't wrapped? According to Dave Barry, we know they weren't gift wrapped for two reasons: A) the people bearing these gifts were "Wise" B) they were men.

Thank you Anon.I have seeeeen the light.I love the fact that our god is the best one.Those other fools with there lesser gods should be ashamed of themselves. I bet that our god thinks we should get rid of all those other "god-lite" kind of people.Crusade anyone?

As Voltaire said: "..those who believe in absurdities will commit atrocities..." Work at becoming a compassionate human being - all else will follow....

Believer, get a clue. They were not called "The Three Wise Guys". The troll detector has been activated, engaged and has a troll within its sight. Time to lock & load!

I have heard it said that no one knows who first referred to "them" as the THREE wise men. The Bible simply says the Magi (plural) - - but does not refer to a number. There were three gifts - - myrrh, frankincense and gold - - and this forms a basis for ASSUMING that there were three of them. Best wishes, Rex

The only good Christian is Christian Dior.

I think it was Origen (C 185-254) who first gave the Magi as three, probably deduced from the number of gifts as Rex suggests. Their names first appeared in the 6th century. Tertullian (c 160-225) called them kings. Their supposed relics were claimed by the Milanese, brought from Constantinople in the 5th century, and Frederick Barbarossa took them to Cologne in 1162, where they are still enshrined in the cathedral. In the symbolism of Christianity, the coming of the Magi to the infant Christ from the 'East', beyond the biblical geography, foreshadows its establishment as a universal faith.

It's a fvourite poem. The site http://itech.fgcu.edu/faculty/wohlpart/alra/eliot.htm from the University of South Florida in Fort Myers gives the text. Best wishes for Christmas. Ben Haines, London T. S. Eliot's "Journey of The Magi" 'A cold coming we had of it, Just the worst time of the year For a journey, and such a long journey: The ways deep and the weather sharp, The very dead of winter.' And the camels galled, sore-footed, refractory, Lying down in the melting snow. There were times we regretted The summer palaces on slopes, the terraces, And the silken girls bringing sherbet. Then the camel men cursing and grumbling And running away, and wanting their liquor and women, And the night-fires going out, and the lack of shelters, And the cities hostile and the towns unfriendly And the villages dirty and charging high prices: A hard time we had of it. At the end we preferred to travel all night, Sleeping in snatches, With the voices singing in our ears, saying That this was all folly. Then at dawn we came down to a temperate valley, Wet, below the snow line, smelling of vegetation; With a running stream and a water-mill beating the darkness, And three trees on the low sky, And an old white horse galloped away in the meadow. Then we came to a tavern with vine-leaves over the lintel, Six hands at an open door dicing for pieces of silver, And feet kicking the empty wine-skins. But there was no information, and so we continued And arrived at evening, not a moment too soon Finding the place; it was (you may say) satisfactory. All this was a long time ago, I remember, And I would do it again, but set down This set down This: were we led all that way for Birth or Death? There was a Birth, certainly, We had evidence and no doubt. I had seen birth and death, But had thought they were different; this Birth was Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death, our death. We returned to our places, these Kingdoms, But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation, With an alien people clutching their gods. I should be glad of another death.

Wow! Thank you, Ben Haines. I love T.S. Eliot. The website is wonderful. Contains critiques of the poem and all. JohnG, since Christian Dior is dead, then does that mean that the only good Christian is a dead Christian? Hope you have a lovely Christmas.

They came from Persia, wearing Dior, but ended up with ST. Croix.

Nostadamus LOL! Ha ha ha! Good one!

I don't know about the "origins" and real background of the Three Wise Men, but I know what they are doing right now: preparing toys and other present for Spanish children. Traditionally, in Spain, it is the Three Wise Men -camels and all- that bring the present for children, in the night of January, 5th. Although nowadays some children receive some gifts from Father Christmas, the best presens will come form the East, brought by the Three Wise Men. If any of you happen to be in Spain on January 5th, there will be defiles in practically all the cities to welcome them. They are very typical, and crowded. The first one was made in Alcoy (Alicante), and it is still very interesting, as long as the pages climb to the balconies of the houses in order to give their presents to the children.

Since Ben Haine's is going to bring up TS Eliot's "The Journey of the Magi," I am going to bring WB Yeat's "The Magi" to light for all you literary-type peregrines: NOW as at all times I can see in the mind's eye, In their stiff, painted clothes, the pale unsatisfied ones Appear and disappear in the blue depth of the sky With all their ancient faces like rain-beaten stones, And all their helms of Silver hovering side by side, And all their eyes still fixed, hoping to find once more, Being by Calvary's turbulence unsatisfied, The uncontrollable mystery on the bestial floor. Here, Yeat's contrasts the "original" Magi of the 3 Wisemen who first attended the birth of Jesus, with "new" Magi of angels looking down from heaven at the death of Jesus at Calvary. The poem is very significant to me because it reminds me of the great painting, "The Portinari Altarpiece" by Hugo Van der Goes. In the painting, you can see these very angels "with ancient faces like rain-beaten stones, hovering," attending the birth of Jesus. It is interesting how Yeats takes these angels, who are filled with wonderment and awe in the Portinari Altarpiece, and turns them into "incredulous" witnesses to mankind's murder of their supposed saviour. Mary, by the way, Dior is alive and well and living in the persona of John Galiano and the Gucci Group. Now, go drink your Poison.

John G. ....they wish...as no one is Chanel, who turns over in her grave at some of the hideous things that go under her name. Now St Croix, he's another story.

I found more than three wise guys on this thread.

Maybe someone can explain something that has always puzzled me. If Christ was born in Bethlehem and the Three Kings or Wise Men followed a star shining in the east, didn't they have to come from the west? But Bethlehem is only a few miles east of the Mediterranean coast.