don

The phrase "Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense" seen at palaces and castles in UK, does it mean more than its literal translation "Evil to he who evil thinks?" What is the reason for its widespread usage? <BR> <BR>Also, what does "E R" stand for on practically anything that is Royal? <BR>

Jan

E.R. stands for Elizabeth Regina i.e. Queen Elizabeth, you may be interested to know there are still reminders to monarchs past,as there are post boxes around, more often than not in country areas, that bare the letters GR (George Rex) and even VR (Victoria Regina)!

wes fowler

Don, <BR>Honi soit qui mal y pense was the motto of King Edward III in his campaigns against France from 1346 to 1349. Edward formed an order of chivalry including 26 companions and himself to fund and wage his campaigns. The chivalric order, The Order of the Garter, and its motto, still exist. Those awarded it, past and present, are entitled to quote Edward's motto, as well. <BR> <BR>There is an apocryphal legend that the motto derived from a comment Edward made while retrieving a garter from a lady of questionable reputation. Simply a legend, and not true.

anna

On the other hand, my kids, practical little people that they are, spent our whole week in London pointing out the things with ER on them that would need to be altered or replaced (with CR, presumably) when her Majesty passes on. We're talking uniforms, fenceposts, gates, etc. It's more than just having new stationery printed up. I can see why everyone shouts "Long live the Queen!"

wes fowler

Anna, <BR>Perhaps Tony Blair, Britain's Prime Minister will, in the interests of economy simply issue an edict announcing that "ER" now stands for "England Resurgent".

Christina

Don -- where did you get that literal translation <BR>of this sentence? I know French pretty well, and <BR>that doesn't seem right to me. I don't think <BR>"honi" is a currently-used French word. I don't have my real French dictionary handy, but I think it's <BR>old, outdated French which probably derives from <BR>the word for shame (honte), not evil. I don't think the placement of the word "mal" is correct usage, <BR>either, which could be translated as <BR>evil or as an adverb (thinks badly), but it should <BR>be after think in either case (with the preposition "a" if one is thinking of evil). But, language and grammar have changed a lot since 1300 in all languages. Anyway, I'd loosely translate this probably more as "ashamed be he who thinks badly/ill/evil of it" or something like that. <BR>It's an unknown reference, though, (thinks evil of what?) which is why that rumor of retrieving a woman's garter came about probably; it would actually make sense as a response to that. I'd <BR>be interested in knowing the exact old French <BR>derivation of "honi", if it is even correct -- <BR>maybe Edward didn't know French that well. <BR>

wes fowler

Christina! <BR>Don't know how we've gotten into the arena of archaic semantics in a travel forum!?! Nevertheless, the Columbia Companion to British History translates the quote into: "Shame on him who thinks evil of it." It was Edward's motto to justify his 1346 campaign, "it" being the expenditure of men, material and tax money, I assume.

kam

Thanks, Wes!! You are a great source of medieval history--and perhaps we will never have a CR on things???? Maybe WR? <BR>

joe

To answer Wes: England Resurgent would never be adopted, unless Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland broke off from the UK and became independent. The change will come to CR, but will be gradual. I am British and can remember using coins (5p and 10p) with the head of George VI until the late eighties, even though the coins were not 5 or 10 p respectively, but one and two shillings - very confusing for overseas guests. Stamps are changed very often, so that is not a problem. Coins are introduced gradually, but as the UK will probably use the euro soon anyway a change would have to be necessary. Other monarchies have similar situations. The Netherlands still use coins with Juliana on them . More difficult will be singing the national anthem, God save our king, not queen, (although a discussion about changing the anthem is underway) and calling naval ships His Majesty's Ship. Standard British English is also known in the UK as the Queen's English, and will then become the King's English. Official letters are printed on letters bearing the heading "Her Majesty's Stationary Office" and the Governments is Her Majesty's. These linguistic nuances will be more difficult to overcome than the cost of putting up new postboxes, which won't be done anyway. There are enough as it is... It will however be interesting to see how Charles monogram looks like.

Christina

gee, thanks, Wes, that's exactly what I was looking <BR>for. Now to see if anyone knows where the word <BR>"honi" came from. I looked in my French dictionary <BR>last night, but it is really only a paperback version <BR>and doesn't give the language derivations going <BR>way back like a very complete dictionary would -- <BR>it didn't include "honi" at all, which didn't surprise <BR>me. <BR>