"The difference between the US and other countries is, if you haven't had good service (in a European restaurant for instance), you don't have to tip, unlike experiences I've had in the US where you feel obliged to tip even if the server is totally disinterested and couldn't give a toss.>>"

Not true. If the service is bad here in the US, you do NOT have to tip at all unlike Europe where you pay higher taxes on a meal to cover the service even if it's lousy.

corli33 wrote: "The poster was talking about if it makes one feel good to do something nice or reward somebody ...what you would be doing is harming someone. Two totally different things genius."

Does it make you feel good to distort an argument and adopt an insulting tone?

What are these "taxes," corli33? I just explained that the service charge is a convenient fiction to protect the customer.

"Not true. If the service is bad here in the US, you do NOT have to tip at all"

My friend (American) lived in N.Y. State, now lives in Florida, I've had this conversation with him a few times, he and his friends/family regard tipping as compulsory for fear of being thought of as insulting or being accosted by the server or followed outside and involved in an argument. The reaction also bears out what some other American posters seem to feel about not tipping (or not tipping the right percentage) in the UK.

<<he and his friends/family regard tipping as compulsory for fear of being thought of as insulting or being accosted by the server or followed outside and involved in an argument.>>

That's HIS issue, not the general public's.

"That's HIS issue, not the general public's."

He and lots of people like him (with his point of view) ARE the general public.

Good grief! This is an incredibly confusing issue. I am American, and I have owned and operated a restaurant in the USA. There have been two occasions recently in the USA where I got really bad service (inattentive servers, food brought out cold, etc.) and I DIDN'T LEAVE A TIP! I too, agree, that tipping is NOT compulsory here (although it is expected), but that doesn't mean that I have to fall into line when I get bad service.

I often "round up" when traveling in Europe (leaving the "round up" in cash) not because I have to but when service has been pleasant and good. I haven't been treated rudely ever in Europe because of the size of my tips.

But I have been treated rudely in the US when the tip didn't satisfy the server.In Houston , we had a bill for $700.00 for a company dinner at a place where all the server did was pour water, Left a $50,00 tip and was follwed out into the street and harangued because I didn't leave over $100.00 for him, He didn't do shite and didn't even deserve the 50! Gave all my NYC Citibasnk guests a good laugh!

I was followed out on the street by a waitress in Los Angeles for an "insufficient tip."

I know this is off-topic already, but out of curiosity, I typed "tipping in the USA" to see what I find.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travell...0316-8za2.html

"America is the land of bald eagles, apple pie, home foreclosures and tipping."

"The best tip about tipping in the US is to tip."

"Sure, it is un-Australian."

"Leaving a couple of coins with the bill and heading for the exit is not appropriate if the service was OK.

When in Rome eat spaghetti. When in the US tip."

Of course as I said, nothing is mandatory or even obligatory. Is brushing your teeth mandatory?

Lynn_Gibson, since you ran a restaurant, I'd assume you'd presume that cold food is most likely not the fault of the waitstaff.

You should have complained to the chef, in my opinion.

"Does it make you feel good to distort an argument and adopt an insulting tone?"

You were being obnoxious and the one distorting. The woman was talking about doing something nice if it makes you feel good and you snidely said well how about not tipping if it makes you feel good.

"What are these "taxes," corli33? I just explained that the service charge is a convenient fiction to protect the customer."

VAT taxes.

Next, I typed "not tipping in the USA for bad service" into Google and out comes this article:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...052.html?yhp=1

"Pope and John Wagner were hauled away by police and charged with theft for not paying the mandatory 18 percent gratuity totaling $16 after eating at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem, Pa. with six friends."

"Police charged them with theft since the gratuity was part of the actual bill. However, it is doubtful that the charges will hold up in front of a judge. The couple is scheduled to appear in court next month.

UPDATE: Theft Charges Dropped Against No-Tip Couple"

Question: Who wants to be like this couple?

I read about two pages of this interesting FlyerTalk thread on not tipping for bad service in the US:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/dinin...-received.html

Personally I think that if service is really that bad, some complaint is warranted. I just think that it's passive aggressive to sulk the entire meal and then leave no tip at the end.

"But I have been treated rudely in the US when the tip didn't satisfy the server.In Houston , we had a bill for $700.00 for a company dinner at a place where all the server did was pour water, Left a $50,00 tip and was follwed out into the street and harangued because I didn't leave over $100.00 for him, He didn't do shite and didn't even deserve the 50!"

If you had a company dinner, the server would have had to do a lot more than pour water. Also, I find that gratuity is almost always included in the bill now, if there are more than 4 people, at least anytime I've had a company dinner and I live in Texas. Secondly, I've never had anyone run after me or chase me out in the street and harangue me for not leaving a big enough tip and I don't know anyone that has ever had that, even after all of my years of living in the US. If a waiter does this, they're not supposed to and a complaint should be made to management. Anyways, I'm sick of these whiny non-Americans on here complaining about tipping in the USA. It doens't matter what you think as it's not your country. Some countries are "tipping" countires, Iran for example. Others are not. If you go to a country that tips, respect the local custom or STAY HOME and shut up!!!

"Personally I think that if service is really that bad, some complaint is warranted. I just think that it's passive aggressive to sulk the entire meal and then leave no tip at the end."

Actually, I agree with this. If the service is that bad that I wouldn't leave a tip, I would just talk to management and complain.

""Police charged them with theft since the gratuity was part of the actual bill. However, it is doubtful that the charges will hold up in front of a judge. The couple is scheduled to appear in court next month."

I've heard of this too. As a matter of fact, at work we were talking about it and everyone said the same thing, it's a tip and they were under no obligation to leave one. Maybe there was automatic gratuity in with the bill and they didn't tell management to remove the gratuity and just walked out and didn't pay. Arrest though seems harsh and I don't see how it can hold up under the law.

corli33, the excerpt I posted says charges were dropped.

But no matter. I agree with those who feel like they have to tip in the USA, even if service is "bad," but I was surprised by the number of people on that FlyerTalk thread and here who wrote that they'd not tip for bad service.

The thing is I just think that it's hard to define bad service. To me, service really needs to be *so bad* for me to even think about not leaving a tip, and even if that happens, I'm pretty sure that I'll want to talk to someone first.

A lot of things that happen in a restaurant have nothing to do with the waitstaff. As I said, if the food is cold, it's more likely the fault of the kitchen than of the waitstaff, in my opinion. The waitstaff shouldn't be penalized for something like this.

"the excerpt I posted says charges were dropped."

Oh, I didn't read that line. As I said, I didn't see how it could hold up.

"The thing is I just think that it's hard to define bad service. To me, service really needs to be *so bad* for me to even think about not leaving a tip, and even if that happens, I'm pretty sure that I'll want to talk to someone first."

"A lot of things that happen in a restaurant have nothing to do with the waitstaff. As I said, if the food is cold, it's more likely the fault of the kitchen than of the waitstaff, in my opinion. The waitstaff shouldn't be penalized for something like this."

This is so true. Also, in addition to cold food, some waitstaff may not deliever one's food quickly because the restaraunt is short handed, say several servers or chefs in the back call in sick because of a flu bug, then service might be slow, but it's not their fault. I look at something as bad service if I see servers standing around doing nothing and ignoring you, not checking on you at all or if the server has an "attitude".

I live in the U.S., although I didn't grow up here, and while I hate the tipping system, and would love for wait staff to be paid properly, and food costs increased to compensate, I know that's not going to happen any time soon, and I tip according to local norms. (Although I wish someone could explain why a percentage should increase over time!)

However, I also, very rarely, reduce a tip for lousy service. I recently did that (the waiter ignored me to the point that I almost left before ordering, so nothing to do with the kitchen), leaving $1 instead of $2 (I was eating lunch, alone), and writing an explanation on the credit card slip, since I didn't feel like having a confrontation. When I got the credit card bill I saw that the restaurant had changed the tip to $2!! I was sufficiently annoyed to (successfully) contest the charge, but I'm sure the restaurant thought I wouldn't notice. They lost a customer.

<i>"What are these "taxes," corli33? I just explained that the service charge is a convenient fiction to protect the customer."

VAT taxes.</i>

Do you live in a tax free country, corli33? I want to go there! (I am always amazed at how some people are upset to see the tax indicated on a restaurant bill in Europe and then they are the first ones to defend having sales tax added on everywhere in the U.S. when Europeans despise it.)

Although we don't routinely tip in Australia I will 'round up' for good service. It is difficult for me to understand the need to tip- surely wages paid by the owner, who is afterall making the profit, should be good enough to meet a basic living. Therefore no need to 'tip' HOWEVER I agree it is best to follow local custom. Last time hubby and I were in the US we were harrassed for not tipping but felt the service (or lack thereof) did not warrant it. This was embarrassing for all concerned - raised voices, off remarks- and we from then off felt "obliged' to tip regardless of service- in some respects this is MORE dissapointing. Last time in the UK we again resorted to the 'round up' if pleased method and this worked fine.

Just curious: has anybody an experience of being confronted or harassed over not tipping (or insufficient tipping) in Europe?

<<I was followed out on the street by a waitress in Los Angeles for an "insufficient tip.">>

That may be because in America the waitress MAY (I know it's not everywhere) be expected to tip the chef, busboy, bar tender.

If your tip isn't enough to cover that she still has to tip them so in effect she is paying you to eat.

Padraig, it is exactly because nobody will let you know when they think you haven't tipped enough in Europe that I feel confused about it. I am not saying that I want people to confront or harass me, but the standard just isn't clear to me, and this thread has not made it any clearer.

In the US, the standard is clear, and unless something is very out of the ordinary about service in a restaurant, I know exactly what I am supposed to do.

I can only hope that what I read from some of the posters here is true- that tipping in the UK and France is purely discretionary, and that no matter whether you leave something or not, you won't be committing a real gaffe.

One respect in which this thread is confusing is that the OP asked for guidance on what to do in two different countries, and many of the responders did not deal with it as two separate questions. And Europe comprises far more than two countries, so there is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question of how much to tip in Europe. For example, in restaurants in the UK and Ireland my reference level is about 10% of the bill, which I might adjust up or down according to how satisfied I am; in France, my thinking starts at 0%, and stays there unless there is a clear reason why I should give a euro or two.

It is very unusual for people in Europe to see themselves as entitled to a tip, to the point where they will make an issue of it if they are not tipped. There is, however, the idea of reasonable hope or expectation of a tip, and that is the understanding that I think Nikki and others would like to have -- not to avoid a confrontation, but to deal with people in a fair an appropriate way.

Eontheway wrote: "Although we don't routinely tip in Australia I will 'round up' for good service. It is difficult for me to understand the need to tip- surely wages paid by the owner, who is afterall making the profit, should be good enough to meet a basic living."

Eontheway - I agree that wages "should" be good enough for a "basic living". Unfortunately, in the U.S. that is NOT the case. Wait staff are NOT paid even the minimum wage (let's not get into whether that is a living wage), and that is legal, because the government expects the difference to be made up in tips! The government is so sure that will happen, that wait staff are taxed on their presumed tax income.

So, if you don't tip in the U.S., your server loses out two ways. I think the system stinks, but we seem to be stuck with it. What really aggravates me is when Americans want to export their system to non-tipping countries.

Oops, of course, that should have been "presumed tip income".

You are not obliged to pay a tip to a taxi driver in France. I do occassionally, but really only if the driver is kind and dosent try to take a long route.

Expatfrance
www.expatfrance.wordpress.com

Re the UK. It's a myth that waiters are well enough paid not to need tips. They ain't. Most are on minimum wage which is £5.80an hour,which goes nowhere in London.

They do rely on rips (incidentally the waiter doesn't get the tip to himself. It goes in the "tronc" which is a pool of the tips which are shared out.)

Interesting, CW. What about the waiters in Paris? Does the waiter at that little cafe really make enough to afford a decent apartment and lifestyle in the City of Light? If so, where can I apply? ;-)

If the waiters in the UK don't make enough, how do they get by? Somewhere I read that one in four young people (under 30) living in London need significant financial support from their parents--not to live a fun lifestyle out at the shops and pubs, but to afford basic necessities (yes, I realize that some might count shops and pubs as basic necessities--but not their parents).

My husband and I bought a small cup of Coke at a deli-type restaurant in London -- just purchased at the counter for takeaway -- and did not tip. The server followed us out of the shop and yelled at us about no tip. This was 30 years ago -- well before the ubiquitous "tip jars" that you see now here in the U.S. We just kept walking, but having traveled to England many times before that incident, I'd never seen anything like that before -- or, for that matter, since.

CW - the fact is they do get min wage, nor min wage less what their employer thinks they will get in tips.

If you are on minimum wage they you are probably getting top ups from tax credits and part of your rent and council tax paid, if not all of it.

You only get tax credits if you'ce got rugrats.

Also the Housing and Council tax benefits system is pretty grim if you're single.

Which is one reason that no one in Britain makes a life long job of waiting. It's something you do when you're young, need a few bob extra or are between work.

Johnny Frog however does look on it as a lifetime job.

That's because the tips are so good from foreign visitors.

Nah, its just that they like loafing about and smoking.

<<My impression is that in London, if service is added, it's usually 12.5%. So that gives you some idea for how much tip to leave if it's not included.>>

And even then if the service is not up to much you are quite within your rights not to pay it.

Basically if you want to tip do, but no one expects it.

Restaurants are not allowed to use tips to make up wages. Personally I always tip in cash, even if I've paid by card - I know then that the money goes to the staff not the restaurant.

Nikki

DOn't be confused, the norm is NOT to tip, the reason people won't tell you that you have undertipped is because there is no such thing.