Ira I agree with you. You have common sense . Personally I like to give good tips but not to be forced to. At the same time when I say a good tip is something within reason, not hundreds of dollars because some guy in the travel agency was pushing and pushing up arriving to a ridiculous sum. I honestly believe that they play with the lack of confidence of some persons like the character that Katherine Hepburn plays in "Summertime".

On a Globus tour, the passengers (two Americans, 2 Canucks, 2 South Africans and 8 Australians - there were two others who were sick the whole week who did get special service from the guide) - spent some of our precious drinking time the last night in the pub discussing the tipping guidelines we'd been given for the tour director and driver. I recall we all decided to give them about half of what was suggested.

I agree with stormbird, the whole thing is embarrassing but for both sides - having to hand them the envelope while they fawn over you at the end pretending they actually liked you and the others is demeaning.

On a bus tour on Martha's Vineyard while on a cruise the driver talked constantly about how much it was costing to send his child to university (when he wasn't pointing out places where long-dead people had once stayed or walked past - god what a waste of time that was) and we practically had to fight our way off the bus at the end to get past him -"crying poor mouth" is what my mother would call it. It occurred to us he probably didn't even have a child in university.

We are Australians also and we took a Trafalgar tour of Italy a couple of years ago and all the tour director seemed to focus on was her tip. From the very first day she started refering to this and also the tips for the driver and this spoilt our trip somewhat - her constant references about tipping. It would have been not so bad is she had not been such a poor guide - at all the rest stops she and the driver were the first ones off the bus and into the shops,getting their own food and drinks, no help for some of the elderly people who had difficulty in ordering because they did not speak Italian, we were told not to use the toilet on the bus as the driver would have to clean it - very hard on one old fellow who had bladder trouble - she did let him go once but made sure he knew he could be seen by the driver on camera as he used the loo - big deterrent for the rest of us. Also at one hotel which seemed to be closed except for serving us a TV dinner type meal some of us were having a nice talk around the table when she comes up to us and asks us to leave and go to our rooms as the staff wanted to go home. I made the comment that it was over 45 years since I had been sent to my room at 8.30 at night! She often commented that we had not paid much for our tour as it was the last of the season - Oct-Nov, so we could not expect much in the way of Hotels etc. After we had visited some of the towns and cities we would see this woman rushing around all the shops and cafes she had recommended to us - I think she was collecting commissions for any sales to our tour - this was the most action we saw from her. At the end of the tour the comment sheets and envelopes for tips were handed out and my husband and I declined to fill in the sheets and we did not give any tip - we really felt this lot did not earn anything. All the others did give something including another Australian couple but as the director had previously made the comment that Australians did not like to tip I was pleased to prove her right. I would not take one of these tours again - we only did so as we were not seasoned travellers and hoped to get to more places than we could have independently but never again - it was not a really good experience overall mostly because of the poor tour director.

anne...

Disgusting obviously....and I'm not an apologist for Trafalgar but from what I've read and what I've experienced, this is the exception and of course it happens.

I hope you were in contact with trafalgar tours regarding this person and I'm really sorry it ruined your trip.

Hi Anne,
Were you aware of the expected tip in advance of your Trafalgar Tour? I didn't read my fine print and was wondering if you did and if so what rate was quoted in Aussie Dollars?

Yes, your tour guide will get commissions on your purchases at shopping ops. Another reason to avoid tours that feature them. Note that you will be paying the commissions, which will be built into the price of anything you buy, as well as any tip you give.

ekscrunchy,
To answer your post:

What do you mean "their regular occupation?" I thought we were talking about guides here...

My experience has been with private guides and not with the company escorted tours, so I probably should not have chimed in here. The last 3 guides that came to my mind were in Russia (Elena wa s a teacher also) South America (this lady was also a teacher and on her "summer vacation" in January! and Ireland (where the man organized a tour for 12 of us, but he was a bus driver & this was an extra for him)

As we are advancing in age, I imagine we will be on an "escorted tour" one of these day, but I have to admit, I'm not looking forward to it. It's my opinion that "budget travelers" such as we can have a much more economical & enjoyable trip making our own arrangements and being on our own time schedule.

I've taken a couple tours, but many years ago. However, tipping was sort of expected, but really low key. I think they suggested it, and it was done, but nobody paid much attention to how much anyone tipped, or said anything. It was voluntary. IN any case, I was on a limited income, also, so I tipped the guide and bus drivers (all of whom were excellent) whatever seemed okay and reasonble within my budget. We weren't them 24/7 or anything, it wasn't that kind of tour. Hard to relate to to today's money, but it might have amounted to what now would be a couple dollars a day for the guide, and maybe $10 total for the bus driver. As I said, we weren't on the bus that much, just a couple day trips or something. I also considered how many people were on that tour or bus, as that really increases the amount of money they would be making from tips.

You can look at the tipping various ways -- that you think it should be included because you paid a lot for the tour. However, people take those jobs with a low base pay because they know tipping occurs, and make their decisions on that basis. So, if no tipping occurred, they would have to raise the pay and then charge more, I suppose. Some suggestions really are too high, and I suppose they think they have nothing to lose by suggesting something really high.

HOwever, I agree with Ira, also -- not just from a local's point of view as they wouldn't probably be taking those kind of tours. But from the idea that the local wages certainly have something to do with what you would tip, as the people you are tipping are living there and earnings are related to the local cost of living. I don't even understand the argument that tipping wouldn't have something to do with the local wages and cost-of-living.

I don't agree at all that it should have anything to do with someone's nationality -- if both Australians and Americans are taking the same tour, the idea that Australians shouldn't tip because they don't in their own country due to Aus. wages and customs, is a completely unpersuasive argument. It just doesn't make sense. The whole point is you are going elsewhere and participating in something that is different than what is done in daily life in Australia. It's just part of the tourism industry, accept that when you do these things. It is not just an American custom, either, tipping is part of the tourism industry and typical or expected and counted on as part of income in many countries I've traveled, for things like tour bus drivers and guides. This is true when I have only rented local guides or gone on tours run by local companies (such as in Mexico and Egypt). IN those countries, I tipped well because I know those people have very low incomes, and they are not getting rich, and they don't always have a lot of great alternative job opportunities to tourism in some of these places.

Christina...

The main complaints I get from the Australians with whom I've been on tours with is that there isnothing in the brochures regarding gratuities and after paying out all that money...including the horrici fares they have to pay to get from Australia to Europe, it's a shock (as are the optional tours)...I can understand that and can't refute that argument.

OTOH as I have noted, in the tour documentation booklet that comes with Trafalgar tours, there is a statement that the "suggested" gratuity is as I have noted $4 US per day to the TD and $2.50 per day to the coach driver (and even in the Australian booklet as I have been shown by my fellow travellers, the amount is quoted in US dollars.

We cannot help or do anything how tour companies choose to pay their employees but indeed a major part of their income is indeed the tips they receive like it or not...of course tips to the hall porters are included in the price....the alternative is to raise the price of the tour as you pay for everything....

My own personal feeling is I start out with the assumption the gratuity will be as suggested....if the TD does something exception I raise it and of course if I had the TD from hell as described earlier, I might stiff her too.

As far as the shops getting commission, that comes with the turf but nobody forces you to shop there. Every tour that goes into Amsterdam, for example, stops at a diamond factory. Every tour that goes through Venice goes to a glass blowing exhibition...you are free not to go..you don't have to buy anything (at least the diamond factory tour gives you free soft drinks or coffee something for free is very rare in Amsterdam as they tell you right there)...it comes with the turf. Every tour that goes through Lucerne, you will get a packet from Bucherer telling you they will give you a free gift if you come by the store...of course to get the gift you have to lug up to the top floor and the gift is a rolex..........a rolex spoon that is. And if you do buy something overpriced there as it is, they will ask you what tour you are on to commission the TD...that's the way it is. So ignore it..

As far as is it more costly to do a tour or do it independently, the tours absolutely represent good value for money what with the price of gas, tolls, whatever, parking..I know some people will brag how they did it by themselves and undercut the tour price and I suppose with a lot of work it is possible...but then again if it's a car trip there's the wear and tear on the driver and I am sorry...when I did a car trip several years ago, I missed out on most of the scenery because I was the designated river (as well as much of the drinking!)...and coming into strange new cities and trying to locate hotels and worrying about stopping to unload baggage and tipping porers and parking the car and all that, it is much easier to do it on a tour...now whether the independence you can get by stopping off at a quaint village for as much time as you want is worth it is a personal matter.

I can recite chapters of bad experiences on tours just like I can cite many great experiences on tours and poor experiences when doing it independently.

For the most part, an escorted tour with a reputable company such as Trafalgar, Globus or Cosmos is usually a great experience but of course there are so many variables that one cannot say it will always be so.

I believe that while you are in a tour and they take you to shops or supposed factories as they like to do in Egypt the are taking something very valuable and precious :our time.

I have taken very, very few tours in my life,but in my experience I disagree that you can choose not to go to these shopping places they wish to take you, most the times you are inside the bus going elsewhere when the driver casually stop in a so called FACTORY, give me a break !!.Only time I was able to have the bus take me back to my hotel before heading for a shopping place ,it was because the guide had the good sense to tell us they were going to take us there first.
This place was not listed in the tour brochure and instead of being taken to a shop I had the wonderful experience to stroll once more in the Iguazu Falls Park.

"Every tour that goes into Amsterdam, for example, stops at a diamond factory." Etc. Well, if you insist on going on one of the big bus tours I'm sure that's true. But there are alternatives other than going independently, which many posters on this board manage to do very happily.

Rick Steves' tours don't have shopping ops - I seem to remember reading that they used to rebate the guide's commission to the tour members, but now if you want to shop you do it on your time not the tour group's time. Then, the small group tours are unlikely to do it. I haven't traveled with Intrepid in Europe, but in Asia we never went near a shop as a group.

You would think going high end would make shopping ops less likely, but with both Smithsonian and Geo Ex we went shopping. And in China (Smithsonian) the shopping was usually combined with lunch, often in a place reached by tour bus, maybe outside town, so not easy to skip.

BTW, I travel solo and don't want to drive - I find the trains in Europe a great way to get around. And I make all my hotel reservations ahead of time by email, so no problems looking around when I hit town.

Yes, tours include these stops, I won't quibble about that but more often than not, they are part of a break that's always scheduled during the morning and afternoon as most of the coach tours do not like to spend more than 2 hours at a time to allow nature calls and refreshments and thngs like that....the glass blowing stop in Venice, the leather factory in Florence, even the diamond factory in Amsterday are easy enough to pass over...just don't go in and do your thing....as noted in other cases the stop at the factory is part of the afternoon or morning break...on one tour I did when went to Blarney Castle across the street was one of those...you could go in or leave it.

Again, I've done it both ways and had good experiences and bad experiences both ways. The only quibble I have with some is those who have never done an escorted tour who automatically say ha ha it is so much better to do it independently without having any idea of what they're talking about.

XYZ123 - I assure you that when tips are earned we do not hold back - when in Egypt we had a nice girl who took us around and we were happy to give her a large tip as she had not asked for a gratuity and she did a lot for us. Also in Los Angeles our concierge did such a lot for us - nothing was too much trouble for him and we gave him a large tip - he did not want to take it but we insisted. It is not purely that we are Australians and in our culture tipping is not common, it is that we do like to think we are getting something a bit extra for the money they expect. If the service is poor then I do not think they should be rewarded.

...if the service is poor I don't tip either and if you read my posts, you will see I have taken a neutral position on it and have stated I understand what is going on...never once have I implied there is anything wrong with this.

I still believe in the case of many escorted tours, it's a failure to communicate from the beginning...the two things I hear most of the complaints about are tipping and the cost of optional tours. This is something that more or less is the fault of the travel agents who book these tours and the literature and many don't discover until they're actually on the tour that to get everything vaguely described in the brochure, one has to lay out additional money!

XYZ123 - you are so right about the optional tours - on the tour we took we did not realise that we would have to pay for all the extras to see things at sights were really thought we would be going to- did not think that seeing the Colosseumm meant just that - driving past and then walking around outside for a short time - our tour guide told us not to bother going inside as there was nothing to see. How glad we were not to heed this advice! We were fortunate that at the end of the tour we stayed in Rome for some extra days so were able to do more things at much less than the tour was offering. On the tour was a young couple from Canada on their honeymoon and it was bad to see their embarrassment and distress when they realised the large tips and all the extras they would need as they simply did not have any more money, they thought everything was included except a tip at their discretion, not a very public asking for a certain amount money, envelopes handed out etc.

The more I read the happier I am to travel on my own. Actually the couple of times I took a tour I did not like them at all....and in those days they had not invented yet the forced tip thing.
I have bad memories even of a personal kind of personal deluxe tour we did in Istambul, she did take us to the Topkapi as stated but when I asked about the harem, she ( the guide )goes ah!! it is not included. So we went on our own, paying a few cents, what beats me if I did not know about the harem....
Same thing with friends that had taken tours of Versailles, they missed tons of thing like some of the apartments..... Often tours are limited to the minimum..... not a good deal, right?

xyz123, there are times when I disagree with your comments but this time I think you were spot on.