Tight Connection at CDG - Realistic?
 

We are considering booking a vacation package that includes an open jaw airline ticket and hotels in Vienna, Salzburg, and Prague. The price is good, however, the first leg of the trip arrives at CDG in Paris at 6:30 am, and the connecting flight to Vienna departs at 7:15 am. Is this too tight of a connection, or will we be able to make this? Thanks for any advice!

And I suspect it is on two different airlines..or is it? Clearing through immigration there or in the arrival (Schengen agreement???) country???

Even with luggage checked all the way through and unless it is on the same airline even I would be reluctant about this one unless there were more of these sorts of details..

Get ready for lots of comments...

45 minutes sounds awfully tight to me. Are you arriving at the same terminal as you depart from for Vienna? If not, I would not risk a 45 minute connection.

I am currently fussing about a 75 minute connection and we arrive and depart from the same terminal at CDG.

Given flight delays, baggage tangles, immigration queues, customs hassles, and Gallic <i>insouciance</i>, I would give your venture no more than a ten percent chance of success.

Might we know what company sells this nightmare?

No way!!!

I've missed connections on 1 1/4 hr layovers. Last time we arrived just after a flight from some African nation. There was only 1 immimmigration agent on duty. Every person before us had a passport that looked like it had gone through the washing machine a few times - and there was always some additional paper the agent had to look at. We were the first ones off our flight and it took us 45 mins to get through immigration. We missed our connection.

Allow 2 hrs at least.

Stu Dudley

Both flights are Air France. I'm not sure on where immigration clearing is - but will check.

I am also checking up one day/back one day to see if other flights are available with longer connections.

The company in question is www.eurovacation.com

Seems pretty tight to me, too. Even if both of your flights are with AF, you might have to go from one terminal to another.

I have a connection at CDG onward to Venice with AF in the fall and I booked a later flight onward because I felt that one hour was not enough time and didn't want to risk it.

However, if you can't book anything else, at least check to see if there are later flights to Vienna on that day so you could make one of them if you miss your connection.

So far, the &quot;horror stories&quot; above have centered on

A.whether or not you are arriving/departing from the same terminal (and assuming you walk very slowly)

B.flight delays (seems reasonable) &quot;baggage tangles&quot; (not a problem if it is checked all the way through) &quot;immigration queues&quot; (again not a problem if you aren't clearing Immigration at CDG) &quot;Gallic insouciance&quot; (which I interpret as the French's total disregard for Empires upon whom the sun set eons ago or people who think English should be the &quot;lingua franca&quot; in the Universe), past experiences from other travelers (which may or may not happen to you).

Again, find out about the possibility of the two terminals, luggage check through, and Immigration....before throwing money away out of ignorance.

Hi, JMO, don't even try...don't mean to be discouraging, and will not bother to add my (several) CDG horror stories, but the upshot is you need more time.

B.flight delays (seems reasonable) <b>how nice of you to agree</b> &quot;baggage tangles&quot; (not a problem if it is checked all the way through) <b>not <i>supposed</i> to be</b> &quot;immigration queues&quot; (again not a problem if you aren't clearing Immigration at CDG) <b>again, <i>supposed to be</i></b> &quot;Gallic insouciance&quot; (which I interpret as the French's total disregard for Empires upon whom the sun set eons ago or people who think English should be the &quot;lingua franca&quot; in the Universe) <b><i>pas du tout.</i> They pout and shrug at one another, too.</b>, past experiences from other travelers (which may or may not happen to you) <b>emphasis on <u>may</u> happen to you</b>.

Keep your options open.

Last year my party of three accomplished a forty five minute connection at CDG. We were in business class so got off the plane quickly and knew we had to be quick. We scurried along and made it just in time. Luggage however did not arrive until 12 hours later. Soit can be done but it is tough.

Of course, written on every Air France ticket/eticket agreement is that you will be in line a certain amount of time prior to the scheduled boarding of the plane. From France to Germany, country to country, at least one hour will be required. After that, your reservation may be taken by others, and your ticket may have to be changed to another time or day(with additional charges of $200 per ticket). This is the reality, whether your luggage or bod reaches the gate prior to takeoff.

Gee - I thought Robespierre's statement was pretty accurate. Each one of his potential causes for missing a flight has only a 15% chance of happening, but together they add up to a 75% chance of something interfearing with your arrival in Vienna - either your bod late or your bags late. I travel through CGD from the US one to three times a year. Bags go elsewhere about 15% of the time - often with a 2 hr layover. I've missed two connecting flights - 1 because immigration took too long (see above), and another becasuse the incoming flight was 2 hours late. Regarding the &quot;Gallic insouciance&quot;, we experienced that when they tried to reschedule 500 passengers on the &quot;late&quot; flight. My wife speeks French fluently, but their systems for booking people on later flights was archaic - and this was in '99.

Stu Dudley

I don't think it's quite that bad, and there's nothing unusual about a company selling that package. That's a standard AF interflight time that many people would get if booking that flight by themselves on some website or through an agent.

I would not choose that schedule if I had a choice or some other options priced as well, or if I had a choice of flight times. However, if it's a really good package and that's the only possibility -- I would book it as long as I checked and found AF had several other flights to Vienna that day. They probably do, they usually have 3-4 flights a day from Paris to many of those other European capitals.

Also, don't book it if you cannot handle potential baggage delays, as that could happen. I've had that happen to me twice on AF for similar reasons (tight layover time, I made it but bags didn't), but both times, they have been very efficient on delivering the bags to my hotel at my destination point by the evening of the same day of the flight. It didn't really inconvenience me at all as I just walked around and did other things that day until evening, I was just a little worried until they showed up.

I have made 45-minute connections several times on AF, so it can be done. I have never stood in a long line for immigration passport check when simply going through Paris from the US to another European city, so I think Stu's experience on that was upon return from Africa or something? I'm not sure, but I've never done that when transiting through Paris to another European capital, there were special lines for people simply in transit.

AF has been efficient with me when I had to get on a later flight that day due to a delay, so I guess I was lucky, but it wasn't a case where they had to deal with 500 people simultaneously doing it.

So, I guess my bottom line is I would not choose to do it but would if an irresistable package and AF had later flights that day to Vienna and I was prepared to deal with possible delays.

SugarPlum,
You'll clear immigration in CDG as this is your first point of entry into a Schengen treaty country. I don't know where you're flying from, but you'll most likely have to change terminals if you're flying into CDG from the US. I believe AF CDG-VIE flights depart from 2D.

orval,
In this case, I don't see how a change fee would apply as long as it's a through ticket and meets the minimum connect time requirement at CDG. The example you cite is the check-in deadline for flights originating from CDG (and actually if you're flying AF from CDG to any location in Germany, the check-in deadline is 30 minutes, not one hour).

I have an Air France flight in September with a 45 minute connection at CDG. It IS a legal connection. If you don't make it, you will NOT have to pay a change fee. My flights to Copenhagen are the exact same times as yours, SugarPlum.

For more explicit information, go to www.flyertalk.com and then to Forums, Airlines and Air France. There is a post by me in there and a link to really detailed information about changing terminals (which you no doubt will have to, too). You will probably do exactly what I am doing. I booked these flights because I didn't want a four hour layover at CDG. If I don't make it, there are other flights throughout the day.

Judy

Our flight that landed shortly after the African flight, was from San Francisco to CDG, and then on to Biarritz. AF all the way. AF was very efficient at reschelduling us on a later flight. Our bags went elsewhere, however. They finally arrived around 10:00 in the evening. AF gave us a &quot;emergency&quot; kit consisting of all the necessities - comb, t-shirt, razor, shave cream, and a condom. No toothbrush or toothpaste, however. We travel frequently, so we packed 2 day's worth of clothes, travel guides, &amp; cosmetics in a carry on.

The flight that was 2 hours late (because someone couldn't find their passport and had to leave the plane, and AF had to find and unload his bags also) was AF all the way. The customer service desk was a mob scene. We were then going to Nice. All the flights to Nice were sold out. We waited around the airport for about 8 hours, and we were stand-bys. There were several flights that left for Nice, and they took several stand-bys - but not us. Finally, my wife asked them how far down on the stand-by list our names were. We were not on the stand-by list, and we were informed that everytime a flight leaves, they &quot;wipe out&quot; the stand-by list and we needed to re-submit our names for stand-by. The agent said that there were two seats left on the plane just departing, so we got on the plane to Nice, and our bags were loaded on the plane to Geneva. We got the &quot;emergency&quot; kit again (without the condoms - darn). My wife now has a rathar large collection of AF T-shirts (too small for me). We contacted AF about the bags the next morning (we finally arrived in Nice about 11:30PM). We told them to keep the bags at the airport, and we would pick them up on the way to St Tropez. We hung around Nice most of the morning &amp; early afternoon. We decided to depart and I use the restrooms at the hotel one last time. As I was leaving the restroom, the desk clerk at the hotel said &quot;Mr Dudley, your bags just arrived&quot;. What If I decided to depart 30 mins earlier or didn't need to use the WC - we would have been searching all over the Nice airport for our bags.

On another occasion, our flight to CDG was a little late and we had a 1 1/4 hr layover. We raced to the AF connection to Toulouse. The gate agents were shouting out &quot;Mr. &amp; Mrs. Dudley&quot; as we passed through baggage security. They immediatly shut the door &amp; took off. Our bags didn't make the flight. Next day (3 t-shirts now) my wife called and was given a &quot;dossier&quot; number, and was told to call later in the day when the next flight arrived &amp; hopefully the bags would be on them. She needed to tell the AF people where to deliver the bags. She called back and got a busy signal for about 4 hours, covering approx 6 phone calls. Finally, we decided to drive to the airport to find our bags. They were there &amp; we were on our way - in a foul mood, however.

All these things happened because we did not allow enough time between flights, or the flight was very late. On connections where we go through immigration, we now always allow about 2 hrs now - 1 1/2 is too short.

Stu Dudley

&gt;&gt;If I don't make it, there are other flights throughout the day.&lt;&lt;

Are you sure that those flights are not sold out???

Stu Dudley

Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies. The flight is common, and shows up first when I search both the Delta and Air France sites directly as well as Travelocity, etc. The best price I have been able to find for an open jaw ticket (Atlanta-Vienna, return Prague-Atlanta) is $1319 (searched ticket sites and airlines directly). The package, including airfare, three nights at K+K Maria Theresia in Vienna, two nights at NH Salzburg, and rail transportation between Vienna and Salzburg is $1554 (additional $235 pp for hotels and rail).

I've been trying to catch a fare sale into anywhere close to where we'll be (Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Munich, even Zurich), but have had no luck. Since we're traveling in July, I shouldn't really expect much of a discount. However, the travel dates are rapidly approaching, so I'm trying to book something within the next week or so.

Thanks again to all.

I stand corrected on the Air France reqmt. concerning one hour versus one half hour. I still am concerned about the change fee however. If it is Air France's fault, of course you would not pay a change fee if you missed another Air France connection that was made in good faith with their reservation service. However, if one was not familiar with the airport, or otherwise misses the connecting flight at another part of the Air France terminal campus...methinks that there could be a charge...

That's pretty much standard Air France practice. I've had a number of hair-raising AF connections and never missed one. They have personnel who kind of &quot;shoo&quot; you from one gate to the other and help you get where you're going. It helps to be able to jog with your baggage.

Hi St Cirq--apparently our &quot;shooers&quot; were having an off day, b/c the experience we had was that an AF flt from Rome to CDG, that we and many others were on, was delayed and they did not hold the following plane for the 15-20 people on the Rome-CDG flt who were scheduled to go on to Boston on another AF flt.

What made it even worse, was that by running (w/o benefit of shooers) we made it to the Bos gate a couple minutes before the departure time, w/the plane still on the runway, and they still made everyone re-ticket. Some people had to wait till the following day to go back to the US. This happened in 2000, so pre 9/11, meaning &quot;homeland security&quot; was not the reason. This is why I will never again book a close connection.

orval,

And I'm just as sure there wouldn't be a charge. I've been a travel agent, worked for a major airline and have traveled extensively and I'm not a bit worried about a change fee. A change fee is for a voluntary change. If one misses a connection it's usually due to circumstances beyond one's control.

socialworker, airlines rarely 'hold' flights for delayed passengers and even more rarely come back to the gate for passengers. Your situation could have happened with a longer connecting time. It's all part of travel (which isn't much fun anymore).

StuDudley, I have no idea if the other flights to Copenhagen will be sold out. It's not till the end of September. But, I'll tell you what, I'm not going to fret about it. Worst case would mean spending a night in Paris and there are a heck of a lot worse places to be!

By the way, I will only have carry-on. Don't know that I would chance this connection with check bags. Although the only times my bags haven't made it home with me was on a flight with a 2-1/2 hour connecting time. Go figure.

Hi jilberto --I don't normally ever expect them to hold a flt--but in this case, we were talking about ~20 people all connecting from one AF flt to another one when the first flt was delayed, making all those passengers late thru no fault of their own. It was a matter of 10-15 minutes and made multiple problems and headaches not only for the passengers, but also for the AF employees and AF itself!! That was the part that made no sense to me in not holding it, esp when those passengers were all transatlantic w/few other options for getting back to the US.

Well, there's more to it than administrative and logistical issues at the departure field.

Flights bound for U.S. international gateways are usually scheduled into air traffic control &quot;time slots&quot; which, if they are missed, mean the flight can be delayed for a long time. In the worst case scenario, it may actually have to divert to an alternate for fuel.

Trust me, the airlines wouldn't strand 20 passengers if a less expensive option was available.

Wouldn't even consider it! however having said that: If they are both Air France, then the airline knows how to schedule their through flights and must feel it is doable......

THEN AGAIN? Air France????? (:&gt;)

It sounds a little strange to me.

I wouldn't even consider it. Two hours transit at CDG is the minimum I feel comfortable with, 90 minutes when I am willing to take a risk.

There are a whole lot of factors that influence one's ability to comfortably do the transit in less time, but the one that causes me MOST concern is the lottery regarding whether or not your inbound flight docks with an air bridge, as opposed to being parked in the outfield waiting for a bus to the terminal.

Anyway, even IF you made it, I would not hold out too much hope for your baggage to accompany you.

Also, let’s not forget Murphy Law in this equation. Based on my travel experience, and it IS considerable, I find that the number of problems encountered that cause you to miss a flight are inversely proportionate to the amount of time you have for transit. Don’t tempt Murphy to prove the infallibility of his law!

Regards Ger

If your arriving flight is on time, you can run like the dickens and probably make it.

Note that those buses between terminals run frequently. But, last Sunday, when we thought our terminal was 2F (based upon our confirmation, then re-checking before leaving home) for our departure, it had been changed to 2C, we had to haul our luggage and wait for a bus, which did not arrive for 20 minutes or so. And, then, it took quite a bit of time for ourselves and others to board with our bags. The bus stopped a few times, whereupon it also took a few minutes for folks to get off and others to get on. We had arrived with plenty of time to spare.

I, personally, would not have wished to have been frantic to get to another terminal/gate with bags.

Murphy's Law states:

&quot;If anything <u>can</u> happen, it <u>will</u>.&quot;

It makes no reference to the relative desirability of the events.

djkbooks,
Although I probably misunderstand where you started from, why did you wait 20 minutes for the bus instead of rolling your luggage from terminal 2-F to 2-C?

Was it because the luggage was too much to handle/had no wheels, or because you had to wait for the bus from a place remote from the Air France terminal campus?

If I really had to get to Copenhagen by a particular time or had checked bags, I wouldn't try this 45 minutes connection. But I am in no time crunch. It is doable if flight is on time. I'm not taking a bus to connecting terminal but walking over via the tunnel.

socialworker, I just read on flyertalk about a flight that was ready to be pushed back when the airport was evactuated due to a metal detector not functioning. So the passengers had to deplane and go through security again. Meanwhile an announcement was made for passengers on this flight to report immediately to the gate. When the poster got there along with hoards of others, they found the flight had left..with about SIX people on it! It left because the crew time would have run out and it was a flight continuing after the 1st destintation. This was in Anchorage which doesn't have a heck of a lot of flights. Quite the nightmare!