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It's a fact that tons of European cities have names in different languages, like
Milano/Milan/Mailand Roma/Rome/Rom/Rum Piacenza/Plaisance Mantova/Mantoue/Mantua Cuneo/Coni Genova/Gènes/Genua/Genoa Venezia/Venise/Venice/Venecija Trento/Trient/Trente Ortisei/Urtijei/St. Ulrich in Groeden Meran/Merano/Meraun/Maran Cotrina d'Ampezzo/Anpez/Hayden Udine/Videm/Weiden Gorizia/Goerz/Gorica Adelsberg/Postumia/Postojna Villlach/Villacco/Beljak Istanbul/Konstantinoupolis/Constantinople/Konstantinopel/Stambul Thessaloniki/Selanik/Salonica/Solun Antakya/Antiochia/Antioche Jerusalem/Yerusalaim/El Kuds Verona/Vérone/Welsch Bern Mainz/Mayence/Magonza Cluj/Klausenburg/Kolosvar Lviv/Lwow/Lemberg Luxemburg/Luxembourg/Letzenburg Basel/Bâle/Basilea/Basle Chur/Cuera/Coira/Coire Geneve/Genf/Ginevra/Ginebra/Geneva Kastellorizo/Meis/Megisti/Castelrosso I'm happy if people in this forum use at least one of these versions correctly |
Originally Posted by Faedus
(Post 17544271)
A point so far overlooked is that we English-speakers have a proud, centuries-old tradition of not referring to foreign places or nationalities by their real names. At least when we’re interested enough, we try very hard to seek alternatives. Thus to us, Deutschland is “Germany,” Ellada is “Greece,” and Suomi is “Finland.” (Obviously I could go on.) In fact, residents of the places whose names we mangle can obliquely feel flattered; at least we have noticed them. If we refer to a place or a society by its real name, it’s usually because we didn’t think it worth the trouble to find another one. (Example: the country known to its residents as Luxembourg, is also known to us English-speakers as Luxembourg.)
Furthermore, for a very long time, though not so much at present, we English-speakers felt that an authentic or contrived Latin name, if one could be found, was always better than the real one. (Thus, the medieval Spanish philosopher Ibn Rushd is known in the English world as Averröes.) Going back to the original comment, Apulia was the ancient Roman name for the south-easternmost part of Italy, and therefore preferable to whatever the Puglians themselves thought they were. It’s not that we English-speakers are ill-intentioned; it’s just that after coming first to rule the seas, and then the world’s greatest empire, we instinctively, if maybe naively, came to believe that we knew better than anyone else, what the various parts of the world should be called. Now that the empire is “deep in darkness” (as The Pogues once observed), perhaps we should reconsider this approach, but the habits of centuries are hard to break! A few additional comments on the original post: [1] Technically, the only “correct” spelling of Ethiopia’s capital is in the Amharic script; anything else is a mere transliteration. There is really nothing wrong with “Addis Abbabba,” or “Adis Ababa,” but the consensus of western geographers appears to be “Addis Ababa” — though a recent English-language world atlas on my shelf gives “Adis Abeba.” (See what I mean?) [2] I was a little surprised that the original poster was concerned about Apulia (for Puglia), but apparently not about Rome (for Roma), Venice (for Venezia), or Sicily (for Sicilia). |
[From a comment above: "The French use the French version in their own language. So do the Spanish. Nothing particularly English about this. And has nothing to do with the alphabet."]
Yes, I know lots of societies come up with their own versions of place names, but I think we English speakers have a special flair for it. After all, we say "Wales" for Cymru! And yes, alphabets do matter. If you ask Americans to identify the correct spelling for a certain midwestern city -- Omaha or Ωμαχα -- I don't think I need to tell you which of the two the vast majority of them are going to cite. |
Originally Posted by Faedus
(Post 17544866)
[From a comment above: "The French use the French version in their own language. So do the Spanish. Nothing particularly English about this. And has nothing to do with the alphabet."]
Yes, I know lots of societies come up with their own versions of place names, but I think we English speakers have a special flair for it. After all, we say "Wales" for Cymru! And yes, alphabets do matter. If you ask Americans to identify the correct spelling for a certain midwestern city -- Omaha or Ωμαχα -- I don't think I need to tell you which of the two the vast majority of them are going to cite. I disagree that English speakers have a particular propensity for creating their own names for foreign cities. I am bilingual, Italian and English, and Italians probably have many more names for foreign cities than English speakers do. Here are some examples of Italian names of German cities: Berlino, Monaco di Baviera (to distinguish it from the other Monaco), Amburgo, Colonia, Francoforte, Stoccarda. (Try to guess the German name of that last one.) These names are usually centuries old, and were created when these were exotic places. Someone once said that a city that has a foreign-language name is an important city and should be proud of the distinction. In Italian, Düsseldorf and Dortmund don't have Italian names. That probably means that there weren't trading ties with those cities until more recent times. |
Originally Posted by Faedus
(Post 17544866)
[From a comment above: "The French use the French version in their own language. So do the Spanish. Nothing particularly English about this. And has nothing to do with the alphabet."]
Yes, I know lots of societies come up with their own versions of place names, but I think we English speakers have a special flair for it. After all, we say "Wales" for Cymru! And yes, alphabets do matter. If you ask Americans to identify the correct spelling for a certain midwestern city -- Omaha or Ωμαχα -- I don't think I need to tell you which of the two the vast majority of them are going to cite. |
“Allemagne has no phonetic relationship to Deutscheland. And Omaha is far more different in Hangul 오마하, than in the Greek alphabet. Of course, some languages don't even have alphabets. In that case, there is no phonetic relationship between the written and spoken.”
Interesting discussion. It is the first time I have seen Omaha in Hangul. 🙂 Perhaps a slightly different topic: many English words have been “adopted “ in other languages and are spelled in their alphabet. Korean for computer …컴퓨터. The pronunciation is almost like ours except the last letter. |
Having pursued this “thread” up to, or beyond the limits of interest, though without backing off from the positions staked out in my comments above, I will graciously admit to forgetting, too often, that in these up-tight and debased times, the art of ironic wit (often known by the common cliché “tongue-in-cheek") seems to have fallen by the wayside!
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Originally Posted by Faedus
(Post 17545298)
Having pursued this “thread” up to, or beyond the limits of interest, though without backing off from the positions staked out in my comments above, I will graciously admit to forgetting, too often, that in these up-tight and debased times, the art of ironic wit (often known by the common cliché “tongue-in-cheek") seems to have fallen by the wayside!
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Originally Posted by shelemm
(Post 17545507)
"The Art of Ironic Wit." A slim volume indeed. That belongs on my bookshelf alongside "The French Horn as a Percussion Instrument."
A lot of what people offer as irony is really sarcasm, which doesn't require any wit. |
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