Ah, but Rocco - how do you know what europe is like if you've never been? (see his Germany visit troll near the bottom of the page)

Art, the Declaration of Independence was written by Thomas JEFFERSON, not Thomas Paine.

One other thing, Thomas Paine came to America in 1775 at the request of Benjamin Franklin, and is not considered a founding father. Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Jay - now they were founders.

hmmmmmm...what twist is this taking?

Correction, the Decloration WAS written by Paine and given to his friend Jefferson. I have done extensive study on this and there is abundant proof of this. Paine was the most important founding father, yes, he came over at the Request of Franklin but it was Paine who coined the phrase "United States of America" it was Paine who suggested the 3 branches of government amoung many other things. <BR>Art <BR>

This IS a troll guys... remember icebergs in the Med ruining Falcon's sleep.

...and here I thought trolls were only in the mountains of Norway... <BR>(what is a fodor troll?)

Well, bully for Thomas Paine! This must be one of the most diabolic conspiracy theories in U.S. history! I mean, how could historians ever think they would get away with depriving good ole Mr. Paine of his rightful legacy!? Downright shameful!

No, guys, you have to read carefully. Art is referring to the slightly less well known "Decloration" of Independence, which unlike the "Decl*a*ration" of Independence, apparently was in fact written by Thomas Paine. He also wrote the Constatooshun, the Federelust Paipers, and the Starr-Spungled Baner. <BR>

He also authored _Common Scents_ (what a stinker that one was).

Was Thomas Paine a distant relative of "Survivor" Sooozin??? <BR>Hmmmmm.... <BR> <BR>(sorry, guys... couldn't resist!)

<BR>Ummm...does Falcon not even realize that the words he so carefully typed out are the words to a song written by Lee Greenwood? <BR>Just wondering.

Gina, I heard that this Paine fellow also penned the Clinton Articles of Impeachmint while munching Altoids. True, or another foul attempt to besmirch Mr. Paine's good name?

Let's face it, Thomas Paine was English.

No no no. Thomas Paine was the cabinetmaker who said "I regret that I have but one armoire to give to my country" (that armoire is currently in the White House) and helped write the Ball of Rites (which is held after every presidential inauguration). Will you people never get it right? <BR>AND he was a special 'friend' of Betty Ross, the gal who rode through Boston screaming "the British are funny! the British are funny!" Just shows you how wrong you can be. I can't quote no Dickens, Shelley, or Keats, 'cause it's all been said before...

Even our resident histarian, Elvira got it wrong (although a funny post). It is "amour" in the White House, not "armoire." There used to be two, and now there is one, as far as we know.

Whups, histerian, not histarian.

Although we seem to have moved on a bit from the original thread, I am impressed by this knowledge of history of you all and the resulting great discussion. <BR>Elvira- are you a history specialist? <BR>Ruth- I always though Paine was Irish and not English which was another reason why that other fellow Burke didn't like him <BR>

Tom Paine was English -- born in Thetford, lived in Sandwich and Margate before moving N. America in his late '30s. I suppose Burke 'didn't like him' because they were on opposite sides politically (nothing personal, even though Burke was Irish). Paine's pamphlet 'Rights of Man' was a famous refutation of Burke's equally famous attack on the French Revolution. <BR> <BR>I've never heard of Paine having anything to do with the Declaration of Independence -- I think Jefferson borrowed quite a bit from Locke's Treatise on Government, though. <BR> <BR>Now, back to travel . . .

In June, 1776, a committee of five men, including John Adams and Ben Franklin, presented Thomas Jefferson with a draft of what he then turned into the Declaration of Independence, not written by Thomas Paine. Jefferson did indeed rely heavily on John Locke's Treatise of Civil Government (which referred to life, liberty and the pursuit of property, as opposed to happiness). However, I think I prefer Elvira's recollection of historical events. Now, the Decloration, well that's another matter.