NeoPatrick

Author: amyb
Date: 01/19/2008, 04:15 pm
"To date, we haven't heard anything but your gripes about Rome. We'd never know otherwise since you haven't shared anything but predominantly negative feedback."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Could someone please translate the following comments from posts by julies? I guess I was mistaken as I sure didn't take these as negative feedback nor do they seem to me that "we haven't heard anything but your gripes. . ."

" an excellent guide really makes the Colosseum and Forum come alive. We used Through Eternity Tours small group tour, and our guide Marle was superb."

"Early January is a fantastic time to visit Rome if you want to avoid crowds."

"We did three guided visits that we felt tied all of the early history together for us into one seamless piece. See if you can do these things too--the Vatican's Scavi tour, visit the catacombs, and take a good tour of the Colosseum and Forum."

"We also used Rome in Detail which had some excellent off the beaten path places and walks. National Geographic Traveler book was also helpful."

" In Venice we just rented a couple weeks ago through veniceapartments.org and were very pleased with them."

(In reference to the Vatican museum): "Your tour sounds very nice, but we hit it lucky and had a GREAT experience just a couple days ago on our own." and "We discovered so many intriguing things on our own--the micromosaics and Etruscan rooms, for example, were fascinating."

To Franco: "Thanks again. You are a font of knowledge."

And these are just a sampling. I'm not listing the long post she did to help with a detailed list of clothes for Rome in the winter and how well it worked for her, or comments about transporatation and the best ways they found to get around and get train fares.

Gee, julies, you really are a bitch aren't you? -- such a list of negativity and griping. Shame on you!

SusanSDG

Thanks, Neo-I need clarification, too.
How about the start of this very thread, "This was probably the freak exception (I hope so for the sake of the rest of you)" ?

julies-I mean, Pollyanna- keep your head up!

ljc4creb

julies, after reading your post, I took it for what it is, your actual experience. I never expected to read the 100+ post discussion and turn your contribution into some kind of nit pick session. Why do people talk negative about you like you are not present? I went to Italy for the first time in October and used this site to plan the whole trip, never used my reference books. All the info whether wonderful or not, helped me. I actually wrote a journal and collected what I could so I could share my trip report. There were plenty of negative things that happened and surprises that I felt could help someone avoid the same. But mostly it was unbelievable, dream come true kind of stuff.

I did write my report and cut it down so many times, not knowing if "my novel" was ok to post. When previewing, my computer froze, the error message showed up, and I lost the whole thing. I spent weeks working on it and still haven't been able to go at it again. This post surely makes me wonder if I want to.

SeaUrchin

I, too, have had my share of negative experiences in Italy and on some of my other travels too.

I have been so angry at some hotel personnel that I have wanted to slap them.

I have been yelled at and snubbed but I chalk it up to individuals. I haven't really gone into detail on any trip report but I have related some incidents.

julies, I think your Borghese incident can help people better plan their visit, especially if they haven't experienced the Italians before.

We don't always see things as they are but we see them as we are.

HelenDonegan

"Especially if you haven't experienced the Italians before" - don't you have them in the zoos over there?

I think planning and preparing for a trip should be part of the enjoyment, not a burden that makes people anxious and nervous.

I had a bad reaction to julies posts because they seemed to be warnings more than helpful suggestions. Her 1 visit to Italy has made her an expert so that she can warn others that there is a limit to reduced-price train tickets and tell them what to wear (even though the weather over here, as all around the world, has gone crazy and is unpredictably at times).

I am in contact daily with people who are concerned about various aspects of their visit over here - they read things on message boards and worry a lot about them. I meet rude people all over the world, I also notice that my attitude towards them can either help or hinder the situation.

Coming to Italy is not going to the moon - some problems can be avoided by using a bit of common sense, some new experiences can be fun, some slack on the planning can lead to relaxation and enjoyment. If you question 100 people who visit the Borghese Gallery at the same time they may well have 100 different experiences. I am sorry julies had so many probems when she went there and in other places during her stay in Italy. It is right that we add her experiences to our collective memory bank but we should also remember the many thousands of people who enjoy the BG every week.

SeaUrchin

"The way Italians do things."
Do you like that better, Ms. Donegan?

Carrybean

I'm totally amazed at some of the reactions to Julies' report. Julies said plenty of positive things so I don't understand this piling-on that's happening. Have to agree with Neopatrick completely.

Should trip reports be nothing but slobbery kudoes to those who gave advice before the trip? No wonder few (relatively) do trip reports.

HelenDonegan

In my opinion a trip report should be complete - good and bad points highlighted in one report - not a series of posts with negative titles. Everyone can learn from trip reports but shouldn't be made nervous and anxious.

Another point is that no one knows it all - I have been living in Italy for over 30 years now and am learning all the time - I can give my opinions and say what is the position today, things could be totally different tomorrow.

I find Italians lovely people on the whole - some will be rude, just as Irish people or Americans can be rude. People also react to how they are treated by others.

Clifton

Helen, that may be your belief, but it doesn't make it so. The rest of us needn't follow suit by your whim.

No one has claimed to be doing anything more than offering feedback from their most recent (or in your case, ongoing) experience. You are free do likewise in the style of your choosing, as are we all but no one owes it to you or other Italia-philes to meet your presentation requirements. Should you truly still disagree and attempt not to be quite so parochial, you might consider championing the cause of trip report presentation in general, rather than defending only a narrow interest of your own.

HelenDonegan

I understand what you are saying Clifton and don't want to comment too much about julies style of posting - everyone is free to say what they like, within reason. My only concern is that others who haven' been over to Italy/Europe will become nervous and anxious by all the warnings julies felt needed separate posts.

daveesl

My sanitized trip report...

Rome is a place.
It has things there.
I went there.
I saw things.
It has weather.
I experienced weather.
Money is used.
I spent money.
Food is available.
I ate food.
People are in Rome.
I saw people.
Rome has transportation.
I used transportation.
I left Rome.


dave

ssachida

SeaUrchin : "How interesting, what is the cherub's gesture?"

I believe, its joining the the tips of the index finger and thumb, with the other 3 fingers slightly extended. Almost like we gesture "perfect" today! My source is Ross King's 'Michelangelo and the Pope's Ceiling'.

ipod_robbie

Not good enough daveesl.

I'm sure some of the nay-sayers will find something in that report to jump on.

You spent money??? What do you mean you spent money?? Obviously you didn't do one bit of planning, or perhaps you're just an idiot. I've been to Italy 5 times and I don't spend any. Shame on you.

J62

Keep in simple. Here's my trip report (albeit not grammatically correct Latin)

Veni
Vidi
Vini

NeoPatrick

Helen Donegan, the kind of posts you are talking about are meaningless in my book. All glowing reports of how wonderful everyone and everything will be. Most people already have such an anticipation -- that's why they're going. Julies posts seem mainly to be geared not as gripes, but clearly posted to tell about mistakes they made, false impressions they had (like how easy it was to get rail tickets or passes). Never once does she suggest not going, but rather says "this is what we found and this is how we would avoid it if doing it again". Please, give me more of the possible things to avoid. Anyone who reads such things and says, "now I'm scared. Perhaps I'd better not go" really probably shouldn't be traveling anyway! Especially if they can't understand that phrases like "this was probably the freak exception" means that it is only a possibility and NOT the liklihood.

Clifton

lol to dave and robbie.

Helen, are you saying that anything julie has said here is inaccurate or untrue?

Or are you saying she should be diluting her point by accompanying it with something happier, so as not to frighten the prospects?

I think you and julie come from very different places when it comes to travel, after reading many of her reports and your website. Neither right or wrong, but while your perspective is to promote one single place you love, hers is as someone who gets well off the tourist path in a variety of places; and if you're used to being a bit of a leader, you tend to shout warnings behind you of low-lying branches. Which, in the end, is more useful to those of us that would actually get off of the path like she does, but could frighten others - "branches??? what do you mean branches?... ahh, I'm not going!". That sort of thing. Anyway, my point being that this travel style difference and outlook may well be why you're never going to see eye to eye on what is important to present and neither of them are wrong - they just have different audiences.

Zerlina

>>if you're used to being a bit of a leader, you tend to shout warnings behind you of low-lying branches. Which, in the end, is more useful to those of us that would actually get off of the path like she does<<

Rome and Venice.

Leader??? Off the path???

If anything, Julies should have known before she went - as it seems she did not - that Rome and Venice are among the most touristed and most expensive places on earth.

HelenDonegan

Yes Clifton you are right - add to what you say the difference between European and American mentality - for example I didn't find julies "satirical" post in the least bit funny but others were gushing over it.

An added problem is this medium - it is hard to interpret what someone really means when we have only got words written in front of us.

Misunderstandings can arise easily on message boards. I thought the large number of posts was a sign of someone attention seeking but can see now that it may be someone being concerned for others and feeling a need to stress the warnings as they might be missed in a simple trip report.

ipod_robbie

Looks like the nay-sayers are beginning to wake up.

Good morning Zerlina!

Dukey

An interesting experience but I wouldn't be foolish enough to allow any of it to deter me from going back a second time, on my own, so I could take that "second look" and I am sure your next experience will be much better.