Fodor's Travel Talk Forums

Fodor's Travel Talk Forums (https://www.fodors.com/community/)
-   Europe (https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/)
-   -   The right way to have pintxos in the Basque Country and how tourism is changing it (https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/the-right-way-to-have-pintxos-in-the-basque-country-and-how-tourism-is-changing-it-1657199/)

mikelg Aug 23rd, 2018 12:52 AM

The right way to have pintxos in the Basque Country and how tourism is changing it
 
Thereīs a very good article today on a local Donostia-San Sebastian newspaper how tourism is changing the traditional way to have pintxos. For locals, itīs a way to socialize, not to eat, and to accompany our small drink with something to eat. It also helps to digest the excess of alcohol. Local way is to have them standing, normally one per bar, using your hands to pick them (except for those made on order, obviously) and never on a plate. Foreigners tend to take a plate, stuff it with lots of pintxos (with the complicity of the bartender, that makes more business this way) and sits down to have them. Whatīs happening? Locals are avoiding these bars (a lot in the old quarter) and looking for more authentic places. Visitors find bars full of foreigners or tourists...the unstoppable trend of times, sadly! As the article says, the denaturalization of our habits. SS Tourism Board has published a video on the right way to have pintxos. The article, in Spanish, is here: https://www.diariovasco.com/san-seba...182110-nt.html

ribeirasacra Aug 23rd, 2018 05:11 AM

Flipping tourist/foodies.
Thanks for the link.

bilboburgler Aug 23rd, 2018 05:32 AM

Last time I was in Haro we snacked standing up, no problems.

yorkshire Aug 23rd, 2018 06:08 AM

I admit I have a hard time thinking of it as not being about the food when I see the sheer diversity of deliciousness--but perhaps I was in places that have already begin to adapt. For those less adept at the language, it is a bit less intimidating to get a few things at once.
I hope SS will find ways to deal with its popularity--it's a tough problem. I am sure it is hard to resist change when the money is rolling in.

StCirq Aug 23rd, 2018 06:36 AM

I think I knew perfectly well what the protocol for ordering and eating pintxos was when we visited Donostia, Bilbao, etc., 2 years ago. But the ravenous piggy in me prevailed every time we set foot in a bar and were confronted with all that deliciousness. I apologize for having contributed to the downfall of Basque traditions.

ekscrunchy Aug 23rd, 2018 08:07 AM

Are you willing to share the names of some of the places that are less known to tourists, where locals would prefer? We went to a few bars in Gros last time and found very few non-Spanish speakers inside, but maybe these were tourists from Madrid..

mikelg Aug 23rd, 2018 12:29 PM

Of course, Ekscrunchy, I have my favorites in San Sebastian and always try to go off the beaten path when doing a tour there (for example, Taberna Ordizia, in uncrowded San Lorenzo street, right by the La Bretxa market, for the best squid in town, or Zazpi (excellent pork cheeks) or San Marcial, for traditional "gabillas", in San Marcial street. By the way, pintxos are available all over the Basque Country...many people believe itīs only in San Sebastian!

kja Aug 23rd, 2018 03:57 PM

I'm glad I got to experience Basque pintxos the traditional way!
I, too, hope the tradition manages to survive tourism.

bilboburgler Aug 23rd, 2018 11:27 PM

let's see, should we tell tourists where the locals go so that they become contaminated with tourists so that they change and become like a tourist bar?

serious question

see also the perennial response re tipping (but it is what I do at home)

mikelg Aug 24th, 2018 12:13 AM

Itīs not a question of where tourists go, but how tourists change our habits (gladly supported by patrons, who make much more money this way). I donīt mind going to a bar with tourists...I mind changing the local way of having pintxos and converting it into another kind of experience.

RM67 Aug 24th, 2018 01:49 AM

I find this thread slightly ridiculous. You don't have to take more than one if you don't want to. You don't have to stay in one bar all night. The fact that tourists do this doesn't force you to join in.

mikelg Aug 24th, 2018 02:00 AM

Of course. But the essence of this pintxos culture is then lost.

ekscrunchy Aug 24th, 2018 02:17 PM

Thanks for those tips, Mike!

This might be a silly question, but what is the difference between tapas and pinxtos? And another question: I found that Sevilla had many great tapas bars. Which other city, besides Madrid, would you consider exceptional for tapas/pinxtos?

I had two of the ones you mention in Donostia on my list but honestly, as someone wrote above, there are so many tempting options at each bar that is is often difficult to tear oneself away. Locals know they can come back the next day, or the next week, but for some foreigners, it's kind of "now or never," so I understand the impetus to try many dishes at each place, whether tradition or not....if one has only 5 or 7 days, it is not difficult to understand how one would want to try the "best" food at the many bars.

Personally I very rarely take the cold dishes; I usually go to the bar with an idea of what their specialty is and just ask for that.

And one more question, If I may: I've never had the chuleta at Bar Nestor. What would be your own choice for a great steak in the city??? I've been hooked on the local txuleta since my lunch in Axpe....I liked that much better than the one we tried at El Capricho near Astorga, and you know the chatter on that place...

mikelg Aug 25th, 2018 12:45 AM

Hi Ekscrunchy! I found this very old post of mine in the Basque TV network web page, https://weblogs.eitb.eus/basquetouri...-not-a-racion/, explaining the difference between tapas, pintxos and raciones...still valid!

Any town in the Basque Country offers great pintxos (except those in the French side), but out of this area, Valladolid and Zaragoza would be good places for tapas, as well as Granada. Tapas, not pintxos, of course! And, regarding the steak, they offer an excellent one at Chuleta (what a name!) restaurant in 31 de agosto street. The best ones are normally served in restaurants in farmhouses outside the city, like Laia in Hondarribia, Asador Bedua, Portuondo in Mundaka, Baserri Maitea in Forua, Horma Ondo in Larrabetzu...so many!

Michael Aug 25th, 2018 06:58 AM


Originally Posted by mikelg (Post 16782615)
Thereīs a very good article today on a local Donostia-San Sebastian newspaper how tourism is changing the traditional way to have pintxos. For locals, itīs a way to socialize, not to eat, and to accompany our small drink with something to eat. It also helps to digest the excess of alcohol. Local way is to have them standing, normally one per bar, using your hands to pick them (except for those made on order, obviously) and never on a plate. Foreigners tend to take a plate, stuff it with lots of pintxos (with the complicity of the bartender, that makes more business this way) and sits down to have them. Whatīs happening? Locals are avoiding these bars (a lot in the old quarter) and looking for more authentic places. Visitors find bars full of foreigners or tourists...the unstoppable trend of times, sadly! As the article says, the denaturalization of our habits. SS Tourism Board has published a video on the right way to have pintxos. The article, in Spanish, is here: https://www.diariovasco.com/san-seba...182110-nt.html

Not ADA compliant. Try holding a glass of wine and a pintxo while using a cane as a support. The traditional way is only for the young and healthy. And it is not the norm in the countryside: in the Elizondo area, small cafés in villages did not have the bar to accommodate a standing crowd and most people were sitting, preferably outside when the weather was nice.

mikelg Aug 25th, 2018 10:41 AM

:) my dad is 87 and he goes everyday for pintxos in the traditional way!

thursdaysd Aug 25th, 2018 07:00 PM


my dad is 87 and he goes everyday for pintxos in the traditional way!
Good for him, but so what? If I have a broken leg, never mind a more permanent disability, what does your father's state of health have to do with it?

Actually, I'm one of these terrible tourists. Waiting to eat dinner until after 22:00 doesn't agree with my metabolism, so I eat pinxtos/tapas for dinner. And I want to eat them sitting down. (I'd still want to eat them sitting down if I were just eating one, especially after a hard day's sightseeing.) Now, there was a popular place in Pamplona that dedicated most of its space to people standing up, but also had a few tables and a pinxtos menu. Looked like a good compromise to me,

StCirq Aug 25th, 2018 07:23 PM

I didn't even need to eat them sitting down, though there were plenty of places that offered that opportunity (which in and of itself suggests that pintxos bars want you to take a plate, buy a bunch, and then go sit down). Maybe it's not so much the tourists but the pintxos bar owners who are changing the "culture," such as it is.

And BTW, I think it's a little blinders-on unsavvy, culturally and economically, to think that there is something terribly culturally "special" about eating only one item from a bar at a time. If anything, it seems to me to be an aberrational cultural thrust to get you to order more alcohol than you should.Is there any other place in the world where it's considered to be "the cultural norm" to eat just one small piece of food somewhere and then move on, and if so, why? Especially if there is also some "cultural norm" that says you are destroying a local tradition if you actually eat more than one piece of food at a time.

I'm all for culinary traditions - lord knows, we have them here in the Périgord, but this MIss Manners approach to eating pintxos seems absurdly unreal to me.

kja Aug 25th, 2018 07:39 PM

My understanding -- which could be entirely wrong, and I trust mikelg will correct me as necessary -- is that the tradition didn't necessarily require drinking anything alcoholic with each stop, and that the alcoholic beverage of choice was txakoli, which has a very low alcohol content. I rather like the idea of a cultural tradition that "spread the business" across multiple establishments, especially in a culture that has long valued refining culinary techniques, sharing them with one's friends, and competing (if in a friendly way) with others. Too, part of the reason I travel is to experience traditions that are local, and as I understand it, Basque culture was decidedly unlike the many cultures other cultures it bumped up against!

And of course, there are actual sit-down restaurants in San Sebastian and elsewhere in Basque regions....

mikelg Aug 25th, 2018 10:20 PM


Originally Posted by thursdaysd (Post 16784278)
Good for him, but so what? If I have a broken leg, never mind a more permanent disability, what does your father's state of health have to do with it?

Actually, I'm one of these terrible tourists. Waiting to eat dinner until after 22:00 doesn't agree with my metabolism, so I eat pinxtos/tapas for dinner. And I want to eat them sitting down. (I'd still want to eat them sitting down if I were just eating one, especially after a hard day's sightseeing.) Now, there was a popular place in Pamplona that dedicated most of its space to people standing up, but also had a few tables and a pinxtos menu. Looked like a good compromise to me,

Well, I was answering to the previous poster, saying that this traditional way is just for the young and healthy. Of course, you can have them the way you want (even for dinner!), but itīs just not what they are there for. StCirq...pintxos are not a meal for us, itīs just a way to accompany our drinks (it can be just water, of course) and the fun consists in going from one place to another and meet different people. I know that culturally many visitors donīt understand these ways...and bartenders take advantage of it. Locals flee from these places, turning traditional pintxos places into tourist traps. If thatīs what visitors want, let them have it, of course!

thursdaysd Aug 26th, 2018 04:55 AM


Well, I was answering to the previous poster, saying that this traditional way is just for the young and healthy.
And I was addressing the healthy part.


Locals flee from these places, turning traditional pintxos places into tourist traps. If thatīs what visitors want, let them have it, of course!
It seemed to me that Donostia was a quintessential tourist town. Look, I really am sympathetic, but you have to be realistic. If you make your living off tourists, you shouldn't complain (too much!) when they don't act like locals (I'm not talking about some of the worst excesses). Locals may use pinxtos bars to meet up with their friends, but you can't expect tourists to have a lot of different friends in different bars. am considering moving back to the UK, and while I would like to live in Bath it gets far too many tourists for my taste and I will look elsewhere. Instead of complaining, maybe you should be glad that Donostia hasn't declined the way I hear some of the British coastal towns have. And culture is not immutable. I have read that British pubs have been closing at a great rate, and that is down to the locals, not tourists.

I thought that the place I liked in Pamplona (which I visited out of season) was a good compromise. A few tables for those who wanted to sit, but at the back, out of the way of those who wanted to stand.

mikelg Aug 26th, 2018 06:20 AM

Of course...but tourists are here just during some weeks or months of the year, and the rest of time itīs local that maintain the bars alive. If locals avoid the bars in the old quarters, what is the future of these places? Letīs pay attention to the local public and tell the visitors how the local way is, itīs what will keep the authenticity of San Sebastian. We donīt want another standardized city, traditions should count, donīt you think so?

thursdaysd Aug 26th, 2018 08:38 AM

If the tourists are only there for a few "weeks or months" why would you not go back to the bars in the old town when they have gone? The "sitting down" problem could be dealt with by not providing anywhere to sit, and I really can't see why eating two or three pinxtos in the same bar would be any more of a problem than eating one in three bars. You still have too many tourists in too small a space.

natylou Aug 26th, 2018 09:22 AM

Mikelg any good bars in Bilbao where we can enjoy our pintxos standing up with a glass of txakoli?

cdnyul Aug 26th, 2018 10:14 AM

According to the linked article, spotting a traditional pintxos establishment should not be difficult, just look for the filthiest one.
Thanks for the heads up.

mikelg Aug 26th, 2018 11:36 AM

Easy. Because we have avoided them due to their policies of pintxos in a plate, preferring tourists to locals. And having three pintxos in the same bar does not make any sense to us, as pintxos are different in every bar and the fun consists on going from place to place, not staying in the same one. Anyway, I can see itīs a cultural problem, you donīt seem to understand my point and trying to explain the local way seems difficult...

thursdaysd Aug 26th, 2018 12:50 PM

I perfectly understand the local way. I just don't see why it is incompatible with the tourist way.

Robert2016 Aug 26th, 2018 01:58 PM

Pintxos
 
I don't know where Thursdaysd had pintxos in Pamplona, but yes, a few of the bars have tables for sitting, inside or outside. None that I frequent have stools for sitting at the bar, certainly not places like Bar Gaucho, but there may be a few of the newer places we have yet to experience. The typical bar area is too narrow and normally very busy during pintxos time.

The pintxos culture Mikelg is referring to can be found mainly in Hondarribia and Bilbao, and in Donostia's more traditional bars, but it doesn't exist at the pintxos mills that have sprung up the last couple of years in the old quarter to accommodate the tourist, who like to have their pintxos as early as 18:00.

From what I recall, there has always been stools to sit at some bars in Bilbao, including Bacahicoa, Zuga, Cafe Bar Bilbao, and Victor Montes, and in Donostia at several places. Bar Nestor which has 1 table inside (which must reserved), but many of the bars, like those in Pamplona, don't have any stools for sitting at the bar because of a lack of space. They are just too small or narrow, like Sāltsāgorri in Bilbao and La Cuchara de San Telmo in Donostia, and most people have only one pintxo, maybe two, a glass of wine or so, and move on. At Casa Urola, one of our favorites, there are no stools at the bar, but there are a few agains the back wall and 4 tables, where we like to sit when the chef is preparting some of his specials for us to try when we're out doing pintxos with good friends.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...6b7d8739ff.jpg

Saltsagorri Taberna, Bilbao
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...08e90e0e37.jpg

Pintxos at Casa Urola, Donostia

thursdaysd Aug 26th, 2018 02:27 PM


I don't know where Thursdaysd had pintxos in Pamplona
I ate in the evening twice at Bodegon Sarria, and checking my blog entry I see that it had tables in front for people ordering at the counter, and a few at the back for people ordering off the menu. (see https://mytimetotravel.wordpress.com...with-pamplona/ ) I don't remember the name of the place I ate lunch, but it had bar stools and a separate room at the back with tables. I had wanted to eat at Bar Gaucho, but it was just too crowded. (Note, I was a late 60s female, alone.)

Marija Aug 26th, 2018 05:44 PM

This seems to me analogous to the Chicago tradition of no ketchup on hot dogs. We don’t boycott hot dog stands as “culturally inauthentic” if they serve hot dogs to boorish tourists who then proceed to lace them with ketchup. Tourists can even order hot dogs with ketchup applied by the cooks and the cultural tradition remains unshattered for the locals. I am confident that the resilient Basques who have endured many atrocities can survive and prosper even when tourists eat more than one pinxto at the same bar.

thursdaysd Aug 27th, 2018 05:27 AM

You know, I don't believe that tourists have suddenly changed their eating habits. I'm sure they have been violating the "local rule" all along. The problem is that there are now too many of them. Changing their eating habits isn't going to help with that, just ask Barcelona.

StCirq Aug 27th, 2018 06:12 AM

I agree with Marija. Besides, if the Basques in Donostia are so keen to preserve their cultural heritage, something I would never deny them, why don't they stop lining the back streets of the old quarter with schlocky tourist shops selling espadrilles, scarves, and bad leather goods?

It's a tough call trying to balance guarding traditions and raking in euros when you have the opportunity. Most people tend to choose the latter at the expense of the former. You see it all over Europe.

I don't think most tourists who visit Donostia, myself included (and it's not as if we don't do in-depth research before visiting any place), have a clue that they are "supposed to" eat only one pintxos per bar. Why should they? And if it is really so important to the locals, then it's completely up to them to do the educating and figuring out how to preserve any traditions that are dear to them. You can't expect tourists to do that for you.

bilboburgler Aug 27th, 2018 07:16 AM

But, we can expect Fodorites to take part in the discussion and understand the frustration of "cultural assimilation".

I have a similar problem from the other side of the fence; I despise tourists who go to Spanish bull-fights as they continue their monstrous trade. But at least I recognise I'm doing so from my position of my ancestors having given up animal torture some generations ago, but for the locals it must by irritating and annoying. If the tourists began asking for more human blood to be spilled how would that be?

thursdaysd Aug 27th, 2018 07:47 AM


But, we can expect Fodorites to take part in the discussion and understand the frustration of "cultural assimilation".
I do understand it, and I am, in general, all for "when in Rome" (I am not going to start spitting because I am visiting China, nor do I expect western men to urinate in the street because they are visiting India). I just don't believe that eating more than one pinxtos in a bar is going to destroy the local culture. I do think that being swamped by tourists will, and I think that is the problem here. (I was unable to read the article in the OP as I use an ad blocker.)

Marija Aug 27th, 2018 07:58 AM

If there weren't bull fights, tourists wouldn’t go to them. It’s not like tourists bring their own bulls and matadors. Don’t blame the tourists for the greed of the organizers. Just make bullfighting illegal and enforce it.

mikelg Aug 27th, 2018 09:05 AM

In my opinion, the main problem is the massive arrival of tourists to an area that was not used to it. And then, lack of information about what pintxos are, why they are there and whatīs the right etiquette. Itīs perfectly alright not to know anything about this pintxos culture. But at the same time itīs perfectly OK for us locals to avoid these touristy bars where pintxos are not served the right way, either to visitors or to us. Then SS will turn (as itīs happening) into "another" touristy city where visitors go to the same places and they only hear their language in the places they visit. But, again...itīs perfectly fine, the video is just trying to make visitors understand the right, or better, the local, way to approach pintxos.

thursdaysd Aug 27th, 2018 10:41 AM

If they want people to watch the video they need to make it accessible to everyone.

Nikki Aug 27th, 2018 01:41 PM

I understand the difficulty of knowing the proper etiquette in a foreign establishment. I would be somewhat intimidated in a pintxos bar without knowing what the local custom is and what is expected of me. And there is nothing more that I would like than going from bar to bar sampling pintxos and socializing with local Basque people. But without a local guide, this would be highly unlikely. Also, I can not spend much time on my feet. But I would hate to miss out on the experience because sitting down is difficult or inauthentic.

StCirq Aug 27th, 2018 04:26 PM

But the thing is, when you go to a pintxos bar in Donostia, there is nothing at all intimidating about it.It's not as though people are rushing you out the door to go to another bar. Just go an eat all you want. You're not going to contribute to the downhfall of civilazation.

IMDonehere Aug 27th, 2018 10:19 PM

This is complicated on many levels.

First is the curse of the tourist. Locals and governments want their money as it does not require services such as schools and social welfare and only rarely involve police and fire. And it provides employment and some places tax tourist activities. Of course, there are consequences intended and otherwise.

Second, customs change from within and without. In Spain the siesta is dying in some areas, because people live in the burbs and do not want four rush hours. More couples are working, so home cooking has changed. Additionally almost all my young cousins do not live within 30 minutes of the home in which they grew up, so social activities have changed. Thus the social foundation of tapas has changed, internally.

Third, many people when they travel bring home with them and have trouble adjusting to the country they are in. This also goes for our Spanish cousins when they visit the states.

Finally as for tapas and pinxtos. As a visitor we do not know all the good places. Last visit in April/May we had tapas almost every day in lieu of larger meals. It helped keep our weight down and it was fun to try many things from the same menu. We start out by saying we are going tasca hopping and then stay at a place where we like the first dishes. It was not a crime as much as more convenience and satisfaction with the food.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:29 AM.