The Great Gift - the Lake District

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Nov 9th, 2018, 05:32 PM
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The Great Gift - the Lake District

I am currently a member of Royal Oak, the US affiliate of the English National Trust, and I get a copy of the NT's magazine for members. Just back from a trip to the UK I started reading the Autumn edition and discovered something I feel I should have known (having grown up in England) but did not. Fourteen of the peaks in the Lake District, including England's highest peak, Scafell Pike, were given to the NT after WWI as a memorial to the fallen. A memorial of stone and not in stone.

Here are links to some of the articles about the gift, and about how it is being remembered this year:

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/fea...-lake-district
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/lis...lake-district-

It feels appropriate that I should be reading about this two days before Armistice Day, and it reminded me that while I was in England I visited St. Peter Mancroft in Norwich, where there was a display of 15,500 handmade poppies, one for each of the names on Norfolk War Memorials.



See also: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-45941434
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Nov 9th, 2018, 05:50 PM
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Fascinating! Thanks, thursdaysd.
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Nov 9th, 2018, 06:19 PM
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I am always struck by the difference between the 11-11 11AM moments of silence, the poppies in every lapel all autumn, the Cenotaph remembrances, etc In the UK, and the 'veterans day sale' hype in the States. I own one of the poppies from the Tower display for the start of WWI and now there are commemorations of the end of the war

I was once departing LHR on Nov 11 and literally the entire terminal came to a halt at 11:00
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Nov 9th, 2018, 11:49 PM
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I just do not get the politicisation of the poppy these days. It is not only used as a symbol in the UK, Other counties do too. This world is going crazy.
When I lived in the UK and did not have to attend a milartay parade. I remember shops and railway stations coming to a stand still. I fortunately have never a lost a relative to war but it is still moving.
I have attended the Menin Gate in Ypres too. But not on the 11 of November.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 03:22 AM
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One of the most moving things to do is visit the cemeteries where the dead of the the Great War are buried . The sheer scale and number of them take the breath away when you realise that each grave holds the body of a soldier.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 03:34 AM
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“politicisation of the poppy”

You don’t need to “get” it. To most it isn’t politicised.

i don’t “get” bull fighting but it’s a local culture.

To most in the U.K, it is one weekend to remember the millions of British people who have died for a juts cause. Some of the causes I didn’t believe in. Probably Irag, Afghanistan and Suez.

WW2 is the prime example of why nations for the right reasons have to go to war.

Most British people have been affected by war in some way over the past 100 years. A poppy is a simple way to respect that sacrifice.

Will it change anything?

No!

Humans are idiots.

Just as with climate change and population growth, they have no idea how to manage their existence. There will always be wars.

My Cocker Spaniel has better values of empathy than the human race.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 03:38 AM
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BTW Thursday

It is a wonderful story which most of us even in the North are not well aware.

The middle/lower classes in the North have had a huge transformation of their living conditions since the end of WW1.

Access to those fells is a small part of that transformation.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 05:29 AM
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What "politicization"?????

Amazing that this thread could start controversy. I thought it was all moving.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by janisj View Post
I am always struck by the difference between the 11-11 11AM moments of silence, the poppies in every lapel all autumn, the Cenotaph remembrances, etc In the UK, and the 'veterans day sale' hype in the States. I own one of the poppies from the Tower display for the start of WWI and now there are commemorations of the end of the war

I was once departing LHR on Nov 11 and literally the entire terminal came to a halt at 11:00
I strongly agree that the moment of silence, the poppy sellers out in force, the poppy displays, and the near universal wearing of the poppy is a very special thing in the UK. However, I don't see the need to compare this with a single 'cherry-picked' tacky facet of the way the US celebrates it. Frankly, travel and living around the world is supposed to give people perspective and balance rather than seeing things in ignorant single dimensions.

If you absolutely must compare, I am very comfortable saying that, seeing beyond the window dressing, generally the visible and spirit of support for service people and veterans in America far, far overshadows that in the UK. Yes, the active deployment numbers overseas is greater from the US, but the UK also has had a lot of recent troop deployments in active war zones and this is much less acknowledged in society. My opinion. Just about as soon as I set foot on American soil, I can see and feel the recognition for active, killed and injured service people making sacrifices. That said, there are some great things in the UK like the awareness around the Invictus Games thanks to Prince Harry. The way that the US and the UK celebrate, mourn, honour the active, injured, killed troops and veterans of all types is quite different and frankly I find your statement suggesting that Americans' honour of troops past and present = Veterans Day sales is ignorant and lacking in any perspective.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 06:17 AM
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I've put this photo up earlier in October, but 16,000 poppies for the 14,000 inhabitants of Otley


Just a little town we made 2000 too many, so they have spread from our Norman church to the memorial gardens with each shop buying a few and giving the money to the British Legion. We also have two of the black steel soldier "outlines" in another park. All very moving.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 06:34 AM
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Most British people seem to regard war as a necessary evil.

Some Americans treat it as necessary.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 06:43 AM
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Lovely, bilboburglar! I hadn't heard about the silhouettes, so I looked it up. Nice piece, from the Daily Mail, no less:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...m-charity.html

But, very sadly, seems some have been vandalized.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 06:45 AM
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Although this year is the centenary of the end of the First World War, my observation is that far fewer people are wearing poppies in the U.K. in 2018 than in previous years. I would also say that there are fewer poppies on sale, but perhaps this is because I don't go in different shops very often, or walk down the sort of streets where one might once have seen a poppy seller.

It could be because the mass commemoration events are taking the place of personal observance, or that people are seeing the rise of nationalism and linking it to the flag carrying and parades that are always part of remembering wars, and so not wanting to be part of that.Certainly there are many people who are looking again at the part familly members paid in the conflict, but that is something different.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 06:56 AM
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Chartley

i haven’t ever come across a link between Remembrance Day and Nationalism.

For most, I’d say 11/11 is about sorrow and regret not to drum up an excuse to start another war.

Id say this year, I have seen more poppies and events. The silhouettes are very haunting, Thursdaysd.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 08:28 AM
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<<
I was once departing LHR on Nov 11 and literally the entire terminal came to a halt at 11:00>>

Same thing just after we landed at LHR. It took a minute to register what was going on, but it was a moving moment.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by janisj View Post
I am always struck by the difference between the 11-11 11AM moments of silence, the poppies in every lapel all autumn, the Cenotaph remembrances, etc In the UK, and the 'veterans day sale' hype in the States. I own one of the poppies from the Tower display for the start of WWI and now there are commemorations of the end of the war

I was once departing LHR on Nov 11 and literally the entire terminal came to a halt at 11:00
It reflects the different historical experience. The US didn't experience those years of grinding stalemate and massive casualties for seemingly little gain. No surprise then if the public mood in the aftermath was very different, and remained so.

(PS I'm enough of a traditionalist not to wear a poppy until November, though. One can go too far)
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Nov 10th, 2018, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BritishCaicos View Post
Most British people seem to regard war as a necessary evil.

Some Americans treat it as necessary.
Clever use of "Most" vs "Some" which makes what you're trying to say meaningless. Flip it around and it's true both ways. Totally meaningless statement with faulty logic behind it.

Most British people are not drug addicts. Some Americans are drug addicts. (TRUE STATEMENT)
vs
Most Americans are not drug addicts. Some British people are drug addicts. (TRUE STATEMENT)

Also, if something is a "necessary evil" by definition it is "necessary" so more reason why this statement is pseudo-poignant.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PatrickLondon View Post
It reflects the different historical experience. The US didn't experience those years of grinding stalemate and massive casualties for seemingly little gain. No surprise then if the public mood in the aftermath was very different, and remained so.

(PS I'm enough of a traditionalist not to wear a poppy until November, though. One can go too far)
Umm...the Vietnam War? And 50 years ago rather than 100 years ago.

And many Americans alive today including very young people personally know a service person who was killed or seriously injured (physically and/or mentally) in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea, etc. Or one that is currently deployed in harm's way. If there is an implication that the American mood toward casualties of war is less serious-minded and more about furniture sales then I think you have a lot to learn about American society. At this point 100 years on, WWI is not very "real" for most British people. I don't think that the raw reality of war 100 years on from WWI in British society compares at all to the raw reality of the open wounds that many American families still have from more recent conflicts. It's not a competition but just pointing out the flaws in your logic. Anyway, in the end, i think peoples' emotions are more stirred by loss of life and limb and their personal connection with it rather than how little (or much) was gained from the war or whether it was seen as a stalemate or a blitzkrieg or whatever. I don't see that as a big driver of British public mood in the least bit. Perhaps more about perceptions of national character but not personal experience with a grinding stalemate of a war 100 years ago.

Last edited by walkinaround; Nov 10th, 2018 at 09:41 AM.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 09:04 AM
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walkinaround

You missed the point, they were not logical statements but emotional statements.
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Nov 10th, 2018, 09:53 AM
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The US is a big country. Attitudes to war in general and in particular vary. Where I live the war of most consequence is still the Civil War.

It is also true that as a percentage of the population US casualties (aside from the Civil War) are very small compared to those in Europe.
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