The End of Tourism?
May 9th, 2010, 04:34 AM
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The End of Tourism?
We recently took our first trip to Europe in a few years. We decided to go in late April despite the chances of iffy weather in order to try to avoid the tourist hordes of high season. It didn’t work. We froze and were trampled by mobs.
Even in this shoulder season and poor weather, the mobs were unbelievable. The experiences of being continually bumped, pushed and jostled, the constant loud din, fighting through crowds, etc made the whole thing less than enjoyable. There‘s also the spiraling costs.
We tried to arrive at museums, etc around opening, but there were still plenty of people. By midmorning, you could barely move through the crowds. At the Louvre, you had to fight through a mob of at least 300-400 people to get anywhere near the Mona Lisa. I could barely move through some of the smaller rooms at Versailles. It was like being packed on a Rome subway care at rush hour. Claustrophobes would be advised to stay home.
Then there are the tour groups. Get behind a large group and the hassles multiply. They set up shop, blocking up areas and every possible photograph, moving en masses to make passage impossible. The guide talks at the top of his lungs to be heard. I won’t name names, but people in tour groups from certain parts of the world routinely bump you and push you out of the way without a word of apology.
Security screening magnifies the problem. Entry lines are ridiculously long because of the masses of people but also because of the time it takes to go through security screening, some of which was laughable. You and your bag get screened at the Orsay with a medal detector but they have some of the most famous paintings in the world hanging absolutely exposed at eye level separated from the viewer by only foot or two, inside a low rope barrier. Huh?
I could only imagine what these places must be like during high season and good weather. And what is this all going to be like in 5 years as the mobs continue to grow? The choices are not good. You can either go in off season and freeze even more or find some less interesting places to travel. Add in the increasing hassles of having to deal with airlines, airport, delays, new costs at every turn, etc and the whole situation is sadly depressing. The future for diverting, enjoyable and relaxed tourism looks very grim.
Even in this shoulder season and poor weather, the mobs were unbelievable. The experiences of being continually bumped, pushed and jostled, the constant loud din, fighting through crowds, etc made the whole thing less than enjoyable. There‘s also the spiraling costs.
We tried to arrive at museums, etc around opening, but there were still plenty of people. By midmorning, you could barely move through the crowds. At the Louvre, you had to fight through a mob of at least 300-400 people to get anywhere near the Mona Lisa. I could barely move through some of the smaller rooms at Versailles. It was like being packed on a Rome subway care at rush hour. Claustrophobes would be advised to stay home.
Then there are the tour groups. Get behind a large group and the hassles multiply. They set up shop, blocking up areas and every possible photograph, moving en masses to make passage impossible. The guide talks at the top of his lungs to be heard. I won’t name names, but people in tour groups from certain parts of the world routinely bump you and push you out of the way without a word of apology.
Security screening magnifies the problem. Entry lines are ridiculously long because of the masses of people but also because of the time it takes to go through security screening, some of which was laughable. You and your bag get screened at the Orsay with a medal detector but they have some of the most famous paintings in the world hanging absolutely exposed at eye level separated from the viewer by only foot or two, inside a low rope barrier. Huh?
I could only imagine what these places must be like during high season and good weather. And what is this all going to be like in 5 years as the mobs continue to grow? The choices are not good. You can either go in off season and freeze even more or find some less interesting places to travel. Add in the increasing hassles of having to deal with airlines, airport, delays, new costs at every turn, etc and the whole situation is sadly depressing. The future for diverting, enjoyable and relaxed tourism looks very grim.
May 9th, 2010, 04:41 AM
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The mobs visit that small selection of places they know of, i.e. those that are marked with five stars in certain travel guides. Do a bit more reading, and visit less known places. There are many alternatives which are just as beautiful and just as interesting. Getting away from the crowds often involves no more than turning around one or two street corners.
May 9th, 2010, 04:47 AM
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Well, if you (and x million other people) think that Europe is only interesting at the Top 10 locations like Paris, Rome, or London, you will in fact be lining up at the major attractions. Have you ever checked what the "rest" of France has to offer to reach the conclusion that it is "less interesting" than Paris?
May 9th, 2010, 04:47 AM
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The reason you and your bag are screened is precisely so that you can enjoy beautiful painting from 2 feet away, rather than behind bullet proof glass 15 feet away. Honestly which would you prefer?
April means springtime in Paris. Everyone wants to go in the spring.
If you don't enjoy the mobs than choose somewhere else. There are plenty of beautiful, interesting places to visit that are not full.
April means springtime in Paris. Everyone wants to go in the spring.
If you don't enjoy the mobs than choose somewhere else. There are plenty of beautiful, interesting places to visit that are not full.
May 9th, 2010, 04:48 AM
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So you visited all of the 50 or so countries in this trip?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...nd_territories.
If you want to post something that folks can believe in you have to be a bit more precise than this irrational comment.
But it is not the end of tourism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...nd_territories.
If you want to post something that folks can believe in you have to be a bit more precise than this irrational comment.
But it is not the end of tourism.
May 9th, 2010, 04:53 AM
#6
Not only are there plenty of other countries, there are plenty of places in Paris that aren't on the tour group itineraries. I was there in April last year and had a wonderful time - but I didn't go to the Louvre (unless you count the Decorative Arts Museum) and I didn't go to Versailles (it was already mobbed when I went in '98).
May 9th, 2010, 05:08 AM
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Looks like you are going to get alot of flak for your comments but being a hornet? you are probably used to people being annoyed by you.
But to a certain extent I do agree with you. When I started traveling to Europe about 15 years ago, it was much pleasanter in many ways. For one the dollar was stronger, less hassle flying, the cheap intra-european airlines were not operating so you had much less chance of encountering drunken hen or stag outings in various places. The first time I visited St. Peter's you walked right in and up to the Pieta, next time you stood a few feet back behind a rope, next time glass, not sure what is there now. There used to be about one choice if you wanted to cruise the Med. and experience parts of southern Europe that way - now every cruise line offers this option - port cities are packed with day trippers.
I am very thankful that I have already seen alot of what the tour guides would list as the "A list" sights - I agree that the crowds detract from the pleasure. But I am not ready to chuck in my passport - instead I try to spend time traveling more slowly in parts of the countries that I enjoy that are at least not where the major sights are. Italy, France and Spain can all be enjoyed at a relaxed pace and there is alot of beauty and even art in the smaller cities. Give me outdoor cafes, some local cuisine, a few churches and some natural beauty and I can still be enticed to brave the flights with the help of wine and drugs. And hey - the dollar is getting stronger! Travel on.
But to a certain extent I do agree with you. When I started traveling to Europe about 15 years ago, it was much pleasanter in many ways. For one the dollar was stronger, less hassle flying, the cheap intra-european airlines were not operating so you had much less chance of encountering drunken hen or stag outings in various places. The first time I visited St. Peter's you walked right in and up to the Pieta, next time you stood a few feet back behind a rope, next time glass, not sure what is there now. There used to be about one choice if you wanted to cruise the Med. and experience parts of southern Europe that way - now every cruise line offers this option - port cities are packed with day trippers.
I am very thankful that I have already seen alot of what the tour guides would list as the "A list" sights - I agree that the crowds detract from the pleasure. But I am not ready to chuck in my passport - instead I try to spend time traveling more slowly in parts of the countries that I enjoy that are at least not where the major sights are. Italy, France and Spain can all be enjoyed at a relaxed pace and there is alot of beauty and even art in the smaller cities. Give me outdoor cafes, some local cuisine, a few churches and some natural beauty and I can still be enticed to brave the flights with the help of wine and drugs. And hey - the dollar is getting stronger! Travel on.
May 9th, 2010, 05:12 AM
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When I saw the title of this post, I honestly thought you were going to be referring to the fact that the ash cloud is preventing flights and thus tourists.
I agree with the others. I've spent 2 weeks in Paris and have yet to see the Mona LIsa. But, I've spent time in other lovely musuems like the Jacquemart Andre, and I've visited many of the charming markets in Paris. Then, we've also had many trips where we flew into CDG and never even set foot in Paris. I am always amazed when people think that seeing Europe is seeing London, Paris, Rome & Venice with possibly a couple other capital cities thrown in. It is so easy to find so many other equally interesting places. Romania, Turkey, Lithuanis, Czech REpublic are some of our favorites, for example.
I agree with the others. I've spent 2 weeks in Paris and have yet to see the Mona LIsa. But, I've spent time in other lovely musuems like the Jacquemart Andre, and I've visited many of the charming markets in Paris. Then, we've also had many trips where we flew into CDG and never even set foot in Paris. I am always amazed when people think that seeing Europe is seeing London, Paris, Rome & Venice with possibly a couple other capital cities thrown in. It is so easy to find so many other equally interesting places. Romania, Turkey, Lithuanis, Czech REpublic are some of our favorites, for example.
May 9th, 2010, 05:28 AM
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It is not a problem of tourism - it is a problem of lemming behaviour.
Europe is large and has virtually thousands of beautiful places, but most of the posters here on this forum gravitate around just a few spots. I see here the same itineraries posted a hundred times - no wonder that these tourists form crowds.
I will give a few examples:
- England. According to this forum, the Cotswolds appear to be the most attractive region in England (next to London). When we made a tour through England, everyone in our party agreed that Devon was much more beautiful in every respect than the Cotswolds. And Devon was deserted, while the Cotswolds were crowded.
- Spain. Repeatedly, I read threads of Fodorites who want to visit Andalucia in July when odds are high that they end getting barbecued when visiting the Alcazar in the heat of the afternoon. When we suggest to go to the Basque Country, Cantabria or Galicia instead, we seem to get reaction like "I wanted to go to an attractive region in Spain".
- Germany. The Fodorite's standard itinerary for Germany is Heidelberg, Romantic Road, München, a concentration camp and Neuschwanstein. Increasingly, the Mosel appears in itineraries. Still, three quarters of Germany (with many first-rank attractions) are completely neglected.
- Italy. Every Fodorite want to go to Lake Como, Cinque Terre and Amalfi Coast (even in November, as we could read recently). No wonder, it is crowded there.
Conclusion: if someone sticks in crowds, it is his/her own fault. Stop reading Rick Steves and ask the natives here on this forum for hidden gems. There are enough in each country.
Europe is large and has virtually thousands of beautiful places, but most of the posters here on this forum gravitate around just a few spots. I see here the same itineraries posted a hundred times - no wonder that these tourists form crowds.
I will give a few examples:
- England. According to this forum, the Cotswolds appear to be the most attractive region in England (next to London). When we made a tour through England, everyone in our party agreed that Devon was much more beautiful in every respect than the Cotswolds. And Devon was deserted, while the Cotswolds were crowded.
- Spain. Repeatedly, I read threads of Fodorites who want to visit Andalucia in July when odds are high that they end getting barbecued when visiting the Alcazar in the heat of the afternoon. When we suggest to go to the Basque Country, Cantabria or Galicia instead, we seem to get reaction like "I wanted to go to an attractive region in Spain".
- Germany. The Fodorite's standard itinerary for Germany is Heidelberg, Romantic Road, München, a concentration camp and Neuschwanstein. Increasingly, the Mosel appears in itineraries. Still, three quarters of Germany (with many first-rank attractions) are completely neglected.
- Italy. Every Fodorite want to go to Lake Como, Cinque Terre and Amalfi Coast (even in November, as we could read recently). No wonder, it is crowded there.
Conclusion: if someone sticks in crowds, it is his/her own fault. Stop reading Rick Steves and ask the natives here on this forum for hidden gems. There are enough in each country.
May 9th, 2010, 05:50 AM
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<<The future for diverting, enjoyable and relaxed tourism looks very grim.>>
Amazing. Did you really expect "relaxed" tourism in Paris in late April? And at the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa?
If you want fewer crowds go from November to the end of March, but even then there will be tourists in Paris -- it's a given.
Amazing. Did you really expect "relaxed" tourism in Paris in late April? And at the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa?
If you want fewer crowds go from November to the end of March, but even then there will be tourists in Paris -- it's a given.
May 9th, 2010, 06:08 AM
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April = Spring Break = School trips
I know of at least 3 friends whose kids did "Europe" this spring with school tours.
And of course, Imahornet, you do realize you are part of the problem
(I love how the post seems to blame the OTHER tourists only) Perhaps it's really just the end of an "illusion" that you may have had?
I know of at least 3 friends whose kids did "Europe" this spring with school tours.
And of course, Imahornet, you do realize you are part of the problem
(I love how the post seems to blame the OTHER tourists only) Perhaps it's really just the end of an "illusion" that you may have had?
May 9th, 2010, 07:34 AM
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We've found that the best way to see those buildings/museums/etc. that may be high on everyone's tourism list is to go there 1-2 hours before they close. All the cruise liner people are probably gone, and everyone else is sipping a coffee at a cafe and resting their weary feet. During the daytime before that time, walk in neighborhoods that are not in the most likely to be touristed areas. Or just walk around everywhere.
We were in Venice in Sept. and went to the Doge's Palace 1 1/4 hours before it closed. We walked right in, no line, and it was easy to get though it in that short amount of time because no tours groups were to be seen (nor anyone else much). We could savor what we wanted in peace. Earlier in the day when we passed by it, it was a zoo!
We were in Venice in Sept. and went to the Doge's Palace 1 1/4 hours before it closed. We walked right in, no line, and it was easy to get though it in that short amount of time because no tours groups were to be seen (nor anyone else much). We could savor what we wanted in peace. Earlier in the day when we passed by it, it was a zoo!
May 9th, 2010, 07:42 AM
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It's amazing that, after reading in every tour guide to go to popular sights at opening time to avoid crowds, people do that.
We've always had terrific luck at Musee du Louvre going at lunch time.
We love Paris in September. The hotels fill with people attending meetings, conventions, fashion shows, none of whom will be at the major sights and attractions.
We've always had terrific luck at Musee du Louvre going at lunch time.
We love Paris in September. The hotels fill with people attending meetings, conventions, fashion shows, none of whom will be at the major sights and attractions.
May 9th, 2010, 11:23 AM
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<u>The Hornet stings again</u>....c'mon guys, this is the same attacker who mercilessly slammed ELAINE, one of Fodor's fine contributors, on her detailed Turkey Trip Report last year..and at the same time referred to Fodorites who frequented art museums abroad as "art nazis" while jeering at Fodorites who happen to enjoy Florence..."skip the city" the HORNET says..And onward,ad nauseam. I've yet to see a civil word on any of his/her infrequent posts.
May 9th, 2010, 12:30 PM
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The Louvre officials, who regualrly monitor this baord, have decided to close the Louvre except for people who complain on Fodor's. Next time just mention your own name at the ticket booth and you will allowed to prowl the museum by yourself.
______________________________
What is odd is the line at the Louvre is long that has ruined the rest of Europe. So those in the western part of Istabul, those near the Arctic circle in the northern coutnries, and those lazing on the beaches of Azores please be aware of this.
______________________________
What is odd is the line at the Louvre is long that has ruined the rest of Europe. So those in the western part of Istabul, those near the Arctic circle in the northern coutnries, and those lazing on the beaches of Azores please be aware of this.
May 9th, 2010, 12:41 PM
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"The Hornet stings again....c'mon guys, this is the same attacker who mercilessly slammed ELAINE, one of Fodor's fine contributors, on her detailed Turkey Trip Report last year..and at the same time referred to Fodorites who frequented art museums abroad as "art nazis" while jeering at Fodorites who happen to enjoy Florence..."skip the city" the HORNET says..And onward,ad nauseam. I've yet to see a civil word on any of his/her infrequent posts."
You haven't looked very hard. Quite the contrary. I am constantly attacked because I don't tow the party line that everything in Europe is WONFERFUL WONDERFUL AND WONDERFUL and that if museums don't interest me that much, I must be a barbarian. The board has a massive attack of groupthink. Anyone who doesn't agree with the platitudes is immediately attacked.
You are also a complete liar. I never said anything like "and at the same time referred to Fodorites who frequented art museums abroad as "art nazis." I challange you show any such quote.
As far as the other comments go, they boil down to: don't go to the good places. Go to the second rate and less interesting places to avoid mobs. Well, yes, that would be a strategy. The problem is that lesser known places are lesser known for a good reason. Who needs the Louvre and Verailles when I could go to Bangaldesh or Somalia. No tourist hordes there. Gee, I wonder why?
The person who wrote about the security being the reason that I was allowed close to the paintings at the Orsay is a fool. I don't need anything other than a pen to deface a painting. In fact, I left a knife in my backpack for cutting cheese. Two places just let me walk right in with it. The security is a joke and nothing more than yet another nuisance.
"And of course, Imahornet, you do realize you are part of the problem (I love how the post seems to blame the OTHER tourists only) Perhaps it's really just the end of an "illusion" that you may have had?"
This is another stupid comment. I never attacked other tourists. (OK I did mention an unnamed group from a cderatin part of the world) What I said is that that the situation is bad and deteriorating. How you could turn this into an attack on tourists baffles me.
Sorry, but there is only one Louvre, Versailles, Alhambra, Colliseum, etc.
"I am very thankful that I have already seen alot of what the tour guides would list as the "A list" sights"
I envy you.
PS Elaine's trip report was a classic pollyanna everything is WONDERFUL WONDERFUL WONDERFUL pathetic joke. It deserved to be slammed.
You haven't looked very hard. Quite the contrary. I am constantly attacked because I don't tow the party line that everything in Europe is WONFERFUL WONDERFUL AND WONDERFUL and that if museums don't interest me that much, I must be a barbarian. The board has a massive attack of groupthink. Anyone who doesn't agree with the platitudes is immediately attacked.
You are also a complete liar. I never said anything like "and at the same time referred to Fodorites who frequented art museums abroad as "art nazis." I challange you show any such quote.
As far as the other comments go, they boil down to: don't go to the good places. Go to the second rate and less interesting places to avoid mobs. Well, yes, that would be a strategy. The problem is that lesser known places are lesser known for a good reason. Who needs the Louvre and Verailles when I could go to Bangaldesh or Somalia. No tourist hordes there. Gee, I wonder why?
The person who wrote about the security being the reason that I was allowed close to the paintings at the Orsay is a fool. I don't need anything other than a pen to deface a painting. In fact, I left a knife in my backpack for cutting cheese. Two places just let me walk right in with it. The security is a joke and nothing more than yet another nuisance.
"And of course, Imahornet, you do realize you are part of the problem (I love how the post seems to blame the OTHER tourists only) Perhaps it's really just the end of an "illusion" that you may have had?"
This is another stupid comment. I never attacked other tourists. (OK I did mention an unnamed group from a cderatin part of the world) What I said is that that the situation is bad and deteriorating. How you could turn this into an attack on tourists baffles me.
Sorry, but there is only one Louvre, Versailles, Alhambra, Colliseum, etc.
"I am very thankful that I have already seen alot of what the tour guides would list as the "A list" sights"
I envy you.
PS Elaine's trip report was a classic pollyanna everything is WONDERFUL WONDERFUL WONDERFUL pathetic joke. It deserved to be slammed.
May 9th, 2010, 12:48 PM
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hit add a reply too soon (on a horrid computer in the Delta SkyClub)
Honestly, the only reason I read the posts is for the "entainment" factor... But Elaine and anyone else the poster attempts to attack, don't take it personally. It's not worth the time it takes to get upset.
Honestly, the only reason I read the posts is for the "entainment" factor... But Elaine and anyone else the poster attempts to attack, don't take it personally. It's not worth the time it takes to get upset.
May 9th, 2010, 12:53 PM
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Nowadays I avoid art museums unless there's something specific that I want to see--such as the Caspar David Friedrich paintings in the Alte Nationalgalerie or the Egyptian exhibition, wherever the heck that was. (I've seen as many ugly Christchild babies as I want to see.) Problem solved. For me anyway.
I go to less-traveled, though well-known places, such as Meersburg, Quedlinburg, Lübbenau, York, Bath, Cuenca, Sevilla, Stein am Rhein, Appenzell, etc., where the crowds aren't bad. When I go to major cities like Paris, I'm much more interested in walking along the Seine than I am in seeing the Mona Lisa, a picture which a philistine--of which I am not one, of course--might even say is overrated.
I keep in mind that I love to travel, and since I don't want to die in a terrorist attack on my plane, I try to keep my priorities straight about the inconvenience of waiting in line, being wanded and patted down (which I always am, because I have artificial knees). I watch the people or read my book while I'm waiting. I'm pretty positive about life, so I don't spend a lot of time complaining or grumbling about the situation. I'm lucky to be able to afford to travel and to be in good enough shape at my age that I can do it.
I do think that many of the people who post questions about itineraries (also spelled itenraries, iteries, etc.) are not experienced travelers. If they were, they wouldn't ask for opinions about spending a day in Rome, 2 days in Paris, a day in Munich, and 2 days in Barcelona.
I exaggerate, of course, but those of us who've done a lot of traveling know the joys of lingering in a sidewalk cafe or wandering around gawking at the magnificent architecture or just spending the day taking in the ambiance of a city. We also know that there's more to France than Paris and there's more to Germany than Munich.
I know that I will be back, so I don't have to see everything this one time. For some who ask questions on this board, the trip may be a once-in-a-lifetime event, and they want to see as much as they can.
I go to less-traveled, though well-known places, such as Meersburg, Quedlinburg, Lübbenau, York, Bath, Cuenca, Sevilla, Stein am Rhein, Appenzell, etc., where the crowds aren't bad. When I go to major cities like Paris, I'm much more interested in walking along the Seine than I am in seeing the Mona Lisa, a picture which a philistine--of which I am not one, of course--might even say is overrated.
I keep in mind that I love to travel, and since I don't want to die in a terrorist attack on my plane, I try to keep my priorities straight about the inconvenience of waiting in line, being wanded and patted down (which I always am, because I have artificial knees). I watch the people or read my book while I'm waiting. I'm pretty positive about life, so I don't spend a lot of time complaining or grumbling about the situation. I'm lucky to be able to afford to travel and to be in good enough shape at my age that I can do it.
I do think that many of the people who post questions about itineraries (also spelled itenraries, iteries, etc.) are not experienced travelers. If they were, they wouldn't ask for opinions about spending a day in Rome, 2 days in Paris, a day in Munich, and 2 days in Barcelona.
I exaggerate, of course, but those of us who've done a lot of traveling know the joys of lingering in a sidewalk cafe or wandering around gawking at the magnificent architecture or just spending the day taking in the ambiance of a city. We also know that there's more to France than Paris and there's more to Germany than Munich.
I know that I will be back, so I don't have to see everything this one time. For some who ask questions on this board, the trip may be a once-in-a-lifetime event, and they want to see as much as they can.
