The clothes issue
 

Hi Fodorites, <BR>I just spent three months in the UK, France and Italy, and wanted to give my input on the clothes issue (I didn't feel like scrolling through 150+ posts on the other thread). <BR> <BR>Europeans wear jeans, shorts, and sneakers. In Italy especially, athletic wear is very trendy (if you really want to fit in, wear Umbro warmup suits). There is a Gap on every British high street. I walked straight into Harrods with a backpack and jeans (after smiling at the very cute security guard). <BR> <BR>I, too, was worried about what I was going to wear, especially since I was backpacking. But, I was fine everywhere I went, no one laughed or pointed or snickered at me, and for some reason people asked me if I was Argentine instead of American. <BR> <BR>So don't worry and be comfortable.

I agree fully with Wendy's conclusion. Having read various lines of tripe on this forum about what to wear and not wear, what was tacky and what was proper, I decided that to look proper at the Opera Bastille, we should have dress up clothes. To that end, I had a tie, coat, my best slacks, and Brooks Brothers finest shirt. <BR>My wife had a semi formal long black dress. Our seats were in the most expensive section because that was the best that was left and I was not going to go 5,000 miles to sit in the peanut gallery. So we got all dressed up to go to the opera. We walked in and sat down beside a French gentleman clad in a T Shirt. At least it was black, so I guess that made it a formal T shirt. I was not quite ready for a T shirt in the high priced seats at the Paris opera. So if a Frenchman can wear a T shirt to the opera, I can darn well wear <BR>Nu Balance shoes to tramp around the Louvre!!

Whew! Does this mean that I could actually wear black leggings with a long sweater in the Alps if I really want to and no one will laugh at me? Can my husband actually wear jeans instead of Dockers and not look ridiculous? <BR> <BR>Thanks for adding this post - I can't believe I've actually been agonizing over what to wear on my trip to Germany! I'm going to see legendary castles and incredible scenery - who the heck cares what I'm wearing!!!!!

Yes, Carolyn, you can wear leggings and a sweater in the Alps. In the end, clothes are not what matters. I am a docent at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington. I get people on my tours from all over the world. I've found that Europeans, Asians, Australians - they can dress just as poorly and inappropriately as Americans can. They wear jeans, sneakers, fanny packs, shirts that barely cover their breasts, and shorts that barely cover their tushes. And you know something, at the end of the day, I can't remember for the life of me who was wearing what. What I do remember are the people who conducted themselves poorly, who let their children run like wild animals, etc. So wear what you like and what makes you confortable and concentrate on enjoying your trip.

Relax! Those of you who are concerned about what's appropriate probably aren't the ones who are perpetuating the stereotypes.

Here's one more endorsement of all that's been said by the previous posters. We just returned from Italy and we saw all "forms of fashion" there, from trendy black to jeans and sneakers (and I'm talking about the Italians, as well as the Americans!) Not too many warmup suits! (Of course, the temperature was in the 50s.) However, make no mistake about, black is definitely the color!

My wife and I spent 9 days in the Alps after Paris in 1999, and in 1998 we spent 14 days in the Alps. Most of it was spent hiking, except for visiting Bern, Luzern, Interlaken, and Afolten. <BR>Hiking gear is a question of functionality. I don't think you want to dress to such a wild extent that you scare the cows, but other than that, I suggest being prepared for the elements. You can get hit with sleet in September, as we did. <BR> <BR>I can add another anecdote. If you read through the tack themes and sloppy themes that have permeated this forum over the last year, you will see where certain "fashion policemen" have inveighed against blue jeans. In 1998, we flew to Zurich via Amsterdam. As we boarded the connecting flight to Zurich, three Dutch men, all carrying expensive brief cases, were ahead of us. AND all of them were wearing blue jeans!!. <BR>

On the clothing theme, we did better in May in Italy dressing in washable slacks and shirts. I like Ex Officio, Travelsmith, and Biltwell clothing all of which travel well--less wrinkles and I don't feel out of place at a good restaurant or in a church. Remember if you wash your blue jeans they'll take a week to dry. Look for travel clothing that is reasonable through www.sierratradingpost.com. Marilyn

Why the obsession with clothes, dress for the occasion as you would at home. If you're a schmuck here, you'll be a schmuck in Europe.

I'm not sure I'd say it exactly as Richard did, but I tend to agree with him. Personally I feel one is usually treated better if you are clothed decently (clean, neat) and appropriate to the occasion whether it be at the local store at the mall or in a foreign city. My theory is when in doubt it is better to err on the side of well put together! Incidentally, I wear jeans in Paris frequently, jeans with a nice sweater/blouse/blazer can look very smart. My French relatives (male and female) all wear them too.

Would the translation of 'I'm with stupid' be Je suis avec l'idiot'. Sorry I haven't spoken french in 20 years. What would it be in german. I'm toying of having some printed up for my next trip. After all I want to fit in.

I hope it is obvious that is intended to be funny.

Thank you Richard for your succinct comment. That was exactly what I was trying to say. <BR> <BR>Actually, I think that peole who are worried about their clothes and how they are dressed must think Europeans are shallow. Would YOU be rude to someone because they are wearing Day-glo?

For Rand: I am checking with my native German friend for an idomatic rendering of "I'm with stupid." But it is one of those things that is culturally specific. I don't know if an equal German phrase is available. <BR> <BR>Literally, the word Idiot in German is the same as ours. I will give it a try, but I don't vouch for the accuracy of the adjective endings, <BR> <BR>"Ich bin mit Idiot." But I think a little more is needed. <BR> <BR>Ich bin mit dem Idiot, der neben mir steht. (I am with the the idiot who is standing next to me.) <BR>Perhaps: Mein Begleiter ist ein Dummkopf. (My companion is an stupid person.) <BR>Der Mensch, der neben mir steht, ist ein Idiot. (The fellow who is standing next to me is an idiot. <BR>Any of these might do, but I hope to hear from my German friend, who lived in the USA for 7 years, on Monday. <BR>Perhaps someone more idomatic in German insults can improve my admittedly un expert rendering. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Please, remember there are people who can't afford to buy a new wardrobe just for travel. As long as my clothes are clean and without wrinkles I feel comfortable and nobody ever gave me a strange look or made comments. Why do we have to live up to the expectations of som posters who suggest what we must wear. Yes, it it is sterotyping. My formula: show respect to others, don't emphasize that I'am an American, concentrate what I am there for. I do not wear jeans to dinner! <BR>Regards to all who travel without thinking what others may think of them. Sorry for my English.

I promised myself I wasn't going to post to this thread... we've covered it over and over again, but... <BR> <BR>Re jeans: the reasons for NOT taking them are practical, not cultural. The weigh a lot packed. [at least my size 14s would!]And if you get them wet or need to wash them yourself they take eons to dry. I prefer chinos for those reasons. <BR> <BR>Re "blending in": I think it's not a matter of letting others tell you... for me, at least, it is a sign of respecting a major city that I decide to make. <BR> <BR>Re "buying a new wardrobe": Not necessary. For me I've been travelling a lot recently, so when I buy clothes I think of travelling. My "travel" clothes [yes black, gray, brown and beige :)] have become a large part of my "normal" wardrobe. But that happens over time. You need to decide what YOU want to take... if some of our advice helps great! If not.. that's okay too :)

Most travel catalogues now have mix-and- match, packable, washable, attractive, generic pants, skirts, shirts, jacket in neutral colors that take minimal space and look fine, jazzed up with a scarf or tee. It has solved my problems, as it can be dressed up or down. My wardrobe is from LL Bean. It is affordable, useful, saves thinking and leaves more time for travel. I predict this sort of thing will be the way future travelers go--neat and practical and predictable, without looking the dreaded "touristy."

For Rand and others on the T shirt question. The Germans evidently don't treat calling someone stupid much of a joke, except in a close circle where you know the person well. About the best would German version would be "Ich bin von Dummheit umgeben." [ I am surrounded by stupidity. ]But that is, as my friend said, strong. I gather that the subject is best left alone because it is hard to to do it and be funny.

I'm with s.fowler re the jeans: WAY too heavy and lordy they take forEVER to dry (and European dryers are not the turbo macho machines Americans are used to, so eons errs on the conservative side for drying time). As for new clothes HAH HAH I say in your general direction: we take our disposable clothes - frayed turtlenecks, moth-holed sweaters, stirrup pants and leggings that are past their prime and wear them for 3 days or so then trum dem away, leaving beaucoup room for our souvenirs (and our souvenir t-shirts "je suis avec l'idiot &gt;"). <BR>And, ok so I'm a grownup but I grew up when jeans became popular, and I never understood the fascination. They are heavy, hot, and about as uncomfortable as chain mail; too short in the crotch, too tight in the waist, the rivets get hot in the sun and burn one's skin, and those zippers! Leggings, stirrup pants and chinos are more comfortable for me (unless I was trekking in the Serengeti, then I might be glad I had thick pants). <BR>Last, but not least, one's age has a great deal to do with 'what you can get away with'. I'm of a certain age where more 'grownup' clothes are better suited (except for the "je suis avec l'idiot&gt; t shirt, which is ageless

The best reason I can find to dress conservatively and try to blend in is that it makes you less of a target for people who harass and steal from tourists - if you look like you live there, they may give you some peace. The other easy way to fit in - buy groceries - few tourists are carrying bags with cheese and bread (although it's a great way to snack) and again, you look like you're not a target.

My question on clothes: Go to any mall in the US. Look at all the bags of clothes being purchased and then look at the people carrying the bags. Where are all these new clothes going? Surely not with the mall people carrying them. Those people look like pigs. Don't they know that good clothes can be worn in public? What are they saving the "good" stuff for? Do they purposely buy ugly clothes that look bad? I am amazed at this debate. The bottom line is that you can be quite comfortable in Europe in nice clothing and it is not mandatory to wear ugly jeans, old back packs and sloppy tennis shoes because you are "saving" the good stuff. It all goes out of style anyway. Surprise yourself! Dress nice and you will be treated better. Dress bad and they will treat you like a poor college student. Why does everyone assume looking good and wearing clothes that actually match is uncomfortable? Amazing!

i was in italy for the month of september with only a small pack and managed to pack the right things (solid, mix 'n match pieces); however, i was sick of my clothes by the end of the trip! i'm currently planning a six month stay beginning in april and i don't want to increase my luggage (does that word come from the verb "lug"?) weight too much. i'm concerned because i'll have to bring some warm, bulky items on this trip and would also like to have some "comfort" clothes (favorite items) and personal belongings for that long a period as i'll be staying in one place the entire time. any suggestions? i thought about shipping some things to italy, but shipping them back home is soooo costly! <BR> <BR>

Principessa! <BR>Since you'll have a base of operations for your 6 months, why not check (grr) a large suitcase? I'd guess the clothes you'll need in April are about the same as you'll need in October. You can always buy new things there to cut the wardrobe boredom and lighten your load. <BR> <BR>So, tell us, Principessa, what are you doing that blesses you so with all this time in Italy?

dear pam, <BR>i'm hoping to teach conversational english while learning italian (probably at the university in siena) during my stay. checking a large piece of luggage is certainly an option, but i'm still concerned with the issue of trains/buses. i'm also planning to bring my dog, which makes it all even more interesting..... i guess it would only mean two hell days though (one arriving/one departing). <BR>

Being in somewhat the same boat (dinghy compared to your cruise ship), I too will be hauling a lot more to Paris than I usually do. I figure check one or two monster bags and carry on a rolling bag (that I can use for day trips) for my six-week stay. An advocate of the RER from airport to the city, I am changing this time and HIRING A CAR AND DRIVER. The thought of trying to drag all that around is making me cry, so a few extra dollars to not sob on the curb outside terminal 2 is worth it. <BR> <BR>Principessa, consider saving up a few extra lira and having a van and driver meet you at the airport to take you, your luggage and Rin Tin Tin to your home in Italy. I would imagine sobbing on the curb at any airport is no way to start an adventure.

Alternately, I could carry your bags for you.... Just a thought. Elvira, the offer is good for you, too.

I would have to agree with the woman who didn't want to stick out like a tourist and become a target. When I traveled to London in the past I wore basically black and grey; leggings/stirrups and long sweaters, the last time I did bring two pairs of jeans, but no sneakers. When my friend and I were on the tube platform I could easily pick out the Americans. The English tend to dress very well, even the young people. I liked blending in with them and on a few occassions was asked if I was English (which I thought was a compliment). Rule of thumb, do not dress flashy (unless you're going to a club), I myself prefer to dress conservatively.

elvira, <BR>what's your trip story? are you staying the entire six weeks in paris at one residence (w/day trips, of course)? i'm planning on doing day trips too since everything in italy is just a short train ride away. <BR>Sylvie <BR>

Except for 10 days when the Traveling Loons hit the waterways in a barge, I will be in Paris for 6 weeks. I plan to do day trips, take some cooking courses, and loll. For the first time, I won't be under time constraints and can just enjoy the city. I'll rent an apartment and wake up every morning knowing I have lots of days ahead. <BR>With any luck, an old doddering baron will marry me and I'll be known as the RECENTLY widowed Baroness Elvira of Paris.... <BR>"The Surete is still investigating the unusual circumstances of the <BR>Baron's death..."

Getting a litle hoity-toity, aren't we, Elvira? What's wrong with "the Widder X" or, if you must, "la Veuve X"? <BR>I keep thnking of that guy in the film version of "Teh Secret Life of Walter Mitty:" "I know a way to kill a man and leave no trace."

I'm looking for a style in which I wish to grow accustomed; this workin' for a livin' is NOT what it's cracked up to be. Figure a baron will have enough money and houses to make the rest of my life the reward for the first part, as long as old Jean-Claude or whatever ain't around to bother me... <BR>Too bad those front steps of the chateau were so slippery....

dear "recently widowed etc., etc.", <BR>i have a few more questions for you, if you please. when do you depart on your adventure? how many times have you been to france and what other european countries have you visited? do you have everything set up already? i have so many issues that i need to square away before i can leave and it looks like this board might be a good place to do that, so you'll be seeing me around for a short while. you can e-mail me for further discussion, if you'd rather do that than post. <BR>principessa <BR>

Elvira, if the baron has a funny brother, I get first dibs. If not, might you be needing a personal assistant?

Soon-to-be Baroness Elvira, <BR>Let me be the first to offer my condolences on your soon-to-be tragic loss.

Dear Baroness Elvira, <BR>You will certainly be requiring the services of a private secretary and I would like to submit my application for the job. I am well educated and travelled. I can tell a Manet from a Monet [usually - the labels help!] and I am willing to assist you in the selection of appropriate hotels and restaurants [trying them first to make sure they would meet your high standards.]. I would do the same with any car you are considering purchasing - a 2-3 month test drive of at least a Rolls, a Jaguar and a Mercedes should it be necessary. <BR>I will also be willing to test the young men you would attract after the sad death of the Baron. [Drawing a veil over that requirement!] <BR>I can be reached through the doorman at the Ritz. He's my brother. <BR>Sincerely yours, <BR>s.fowler - soon-to-be-personal-secretary-to-the-recently-widowed-Baroness Elivira

Dear Soon-To-Be Baroness Elvira, <BR> <BR>I was just wondering, if and when you invite us Fodorites to the chateau, will we need to bring our own washcloths? <BR> <BR>(Planning to go to the back door in order to avoid those tricky front steps!)