Thank you, USA - but we're quits now, OK?
Jan 3rd, 2007, 12:09 PM
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Thank you, USA - but we're quits now, OK?
Jan 3rd, 2007, 12:22 PM
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I'ver heard dueling stories about this:
(a) The Brits are thankful that the US came to their aid.
(b) The Brits are resentful that the US shylocked them.
Anyone care to present the truth? Or at least your own version of the truth.
(a) The Brits are thankful that the US came to their aid.
(b) The Brits are resentful that the US shylocked them.
Anyone care to present the truth? Or at least your own version of the truth.
Jan 3rd, 2007, 12:35 PM
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makes it fun...posters like PatrickLondon often give sage travel advice but also sage entertaining topics. The more entertaining a site is the better travel advice you'll get because it will attract more folks. Or else we just end up with the same old questions time and time again. If someone is not interested in a post they simply can click off in one second rather than trying to ruin the fun of others. I find travel more than restaurant recommendations and hotels - i find it an insight into culture and topics of interest to both cultures.
Jan 3rd, 2007, 12:51 PM
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There are very divergent views on this....even a generation or two later.
You know we take Anglo American friendship for granted in this day and age but it wasn't always so...there was a great deal of anti English sentiment even in the early days of World War II (America First and of course with Uncle Joey being an ally of Hitler, the American communists were solidly anti England)....Roosevelt sort of knew that at some point the USA would have to come in on the English side and I've seen documentaries where Churchill pleaded frustration that America was slow to join the war effort...Roosevelt always made it clear to the English the US would not enter the war simply to save the British Empire and sort of implied Empires were things of the past...
Pearl Harbor changed everything (there are still conspiracy theories out there that FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming as the Americans had cracked the Japanese diplomatic code but needed the attack to justify entering the war).
During World War II, the English, much to their chagrin but being realists, had to let the Americans do much of the war planning (Eisenhower was made the Supreme Commander of Allied troops in the West)....and Churchill on many occasions expressed his dislike of the anti British Empire sentiment of the Americans who all but occupied England but he felt that was the price they had to pay to dismantle Hitler and Germany.
Of course we all know what happened...Europe was in ruins and America emerged as one of two super powers and the English felt it necessary to be protected by the American nuclear umbrella (despite the fact they had contributed mightily to the production of the atomic bomb)...all the while the Americans encouraged the Brits to dismantle their empire...
The "special relationship" between the USA and Britain goes on to this day and it is really not clear how the majority of British people feel...reading the BBC web sites you see some of the most vehement anti American tirades but one doesn't know if that represents the view points of all Brits.
Of course the common language has a great deal to do with this from a travel view point...hop on a plane and in a few hours say from NY you can be in London and you can watch the telly, read the newspapers, ride the tube and read the signs, talk to the man or woman in the street, walk into a pub and engage locals. I have some close friends who live in London and we have great times in pubs extolling the virtues of America vs. Britain (they can't stand cold beer...all I drink is either cold lager or Guiness can't stand warm bitter)...currently they love coming to visit me in NY and simply cannot comprehend how cheap everything is here...can you imagine, I was told much less than £1 to ride the NY subway and you can even transfer for free from the bus to the train or bus to bus....only ...can you imagine only 33p/liter for petrol...and blue jeans for 7 quid...and a good restaurant meal for 20 quid.....they simply can't believe it.
So no, I don't have an answer as to how the majority of Brits feel about this...the reality is most are probably ambivalent and given their druthers would rather be with the Americans than the French or Germans but they might not have the choice.
You know we take Anglo American friendship for granted in this day and age but it wasn't always so...there was a great deal of anti English sentiment even in the early days of World War II (America First and of course with Uncle Joey being an ally of Hitler, the American communists were solidly anti England)....Roosevelt sort of knew that at some point the USA would have to come in on the English side and I've seen documentaries where Churchill pleaded frustration that America was slow to join the war effort...Roosevelt always made it clear to the English the US would not enter the war simply to save the British Empire and sort of implied Empires were things of the past...
Pearl Harbor changed everything (there are still conspiracy theories out there that FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming as the Americans had cracked the Japanese diplomatic code but needed the attack to justify entering the war).
During World War II, the English, much to their chagrin but being realists, had to let the Americans do much of the war planning (Eisenhower was made the Supreme Commander of Allied troops in the West)....and Churchill on many occasions expressed his dislike of the anti British Empire sentiment of the Americans who all but occupied England but he felt that was the price they had to pay to dismantle Hitler and Germany.
Of course we all know what happened...Europe was in ruins and America emerged as one of two super powers and the English felt it necessary to be protected by the American nuclear umbrella (despite the fact they had contributed mightily to the production of the atomic bomb)...all the while the Americans encouraged the Brits to dismantle their empire...
The "special relationship" between the USA and Britain goes on to this day and it is really not clear how the majority of British people feel...reading the BBC web sites you see some of the most vehement anti American tirades but one doesn't know if that represents the view points of all Brits.
Of course the common language has a great deal to do with this from a travel view point...hop on a plane and in a few hours say from NY you can be in London and you can watch the telly, read the newspapers, ride the tube and read the signs, talk to the man or woman in the street, walk into a pub and engage locals. I have some close friends who live in London and we have great times in pubs extolling the virtues of America vs. Britain (they can't stand cold beer...all I drink is either cold lager or Guiness can't stand warm bitter)...currently they love coming to visit me in NY and simply cannot comprehend how cheap everything is here...can you imagine, I was told much less than £1 to ride the NY subway and you can even transfer for free from the bus to the train or bus to bus....only ...can you imagine only 33p/liter for petrol...and blue jeans for 7 quid...and a good restaurant meal for 20 quid.....they simply can't believe it.
So no, I don't have an answer as to how the majority of Brits feel about this...the reality is most are probably ambivalent and given their druthers would rather be with the Americans than the French or Germans but they might not have the choice.
Jan 3rd, 2007, 12:54 PM
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Patrick Hi,
Interesting subject, big headlines here as you well know.
So when we going to get it all back from Poland ? ;-)
I am really interested as to what this wonderful government (not) will do with the spare £54m pa, we now have.
Health? Schools? Education? Nah probably Iraq, not much change there then.
Muck
"The payments of $83.25m (£42.5m) to the US and US$22.7m (£11.6m) to Canada are the last of 50 instalments since 1950."
Interesting subject, big headlines here as you well know.
So when we going to get it all back from Poland ? ;-)
I am really interested as to what this wonderful government (not) will do with the spare £54m pa, we now have.
Health? Schools? Education? Nah probably Iraq, not much change there then.
Muck
"The payments of $83.25m (£42.5m) to the US and US$22.7m (£11.6m) to Canada are the last of 50 instalments since 1950."
Jan 3rd, 2007, 01:11 PM
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Gratitude's a very difficult emotion, no?
My gut, rather than thought through reaction to j 9's question is that we kind of take it for granted that you came to fight here- we were, of course, wholly in the right and you guys always wear the white hats, so how could it be other.
There's a strong view that you had to be shoved by the Japanese, and you'd be on higher moral ground had you come in earlier and not waited to be pushed.
I think people know we'd have struggled without you. I think we don't acknowledge that we'd not have made it. But thanks anyway- truly. And for the lend lease too. I don't suppose you know anyone lending on those terms today?
My gut, rather than thought through reaction to j 9's question is that we kind of take it for granted that you came to fight here- we were, of course, wholly in the right and you guys always wear the white hats, so how could it be other.
There's a strong view that you had to be shoved by the Japanese, and you'd be on higher moral ground had you come in earlier and not waited to be pushed.
I think people know we'd have struggled without you. I think we don't acknowledge that we'd not have made it. But thanks anyway- truly. And for the lend lease too. I don't suppose you know anyone lending on those terms today?
Jan 3rd, 2007, 01:41 PM
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I can't place the quote, but the story goes an American politician was in dispute with a French one, and broke off to ask:
"Do you speak German?"
"No"
"You're welcome"
"Do you speak German?"
"No"
"You're welcome"
Jan 3rd, 2007, 01:48 PM
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The odd thing is that the loan we've just paid off didn't do much to help us, since the small print (ineptly conceded by an arrogant, seriously ill, academic with no experience of negotiations but infinite experience of thinking the world revolved around him) more or less wiped the loan out anyway. The interest rate and repayment terms were fine: but the requirement to make sterling almost instantly convertible practically ruined us.
What actually saved the British economy was Marshall Aid. Which was pretty much what Keynes tried and failed to negotiate in 1945,when he tried to tell the US that it had a moral obligation to give us $5bn (back in the days when $5bn was real money). Outright. Truman's administration didn't see it his way!
What actually saved the British economy was Marshall Aid. Which was pretty much what Keynes tried and failed to negotiate in 1945,when he tried to tell the US that it had a moral obligation to give us $5bn (back in the days when $5bn was real money). Outright. Truman's administration didn't see it his way!
Jan 3rd, 2007, 02:01 PM
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to relate two ideas here:
1. what britons think of america and
2. the point about the marshall plan
it is a unique cultural aspect that many older people in britain feel very strongly about the marshall plan and have very much affection for the US because of it.
1. what britons think of america and
2. the point about the marshall plan
it is a unique cultural aspect that many older people in britain feel very strongly about the marshall plan and have very much affection for the US because of it.
Jan 3rd, 2007, 02:06 PM
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Thank you. We in the Colonies can now use the money to re-pay the French for the money they loaned to us to finance, in part, the American Revolution. I'm not sure what that says about America, but I think it does clearly say something about Franco-Brit relations.
BC
BC
Jan 3rd, 2007, 04:24 PM
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"Over fed
Over sexed"
That would seem to imply that the Brits at the time were 'underfed and undersexed', by American standards.
I recall speaking to my paternal grandparents, who were strong 'America Firsters' until Hitler declared war on the US on 10 December, on this very matter. Their opinion seemed to be that the Brits and the French had gotten themselves into their fix thru their own incompetence (by not stopping Hitler over the Rhineland and Czechoslovokia) and that it was unreasonable for them to expect the US to pull their chestnuts out of the fire yet again.
Are we 'quits' now? There are a lot of empty chairs at American family tables. How can one call 'quits' on that?
Over sexed"
That would seem to imply that the Brits at the time were 'underfed and undersexed', by American standards.
I recall speaking to my paternal grandparents, who were strong 'America Firsters' until Hitler declared war on the US on 10 December, on this very matter. Their opinion seemed to be that the Brits and the French had gotten themselves into their fix thru their own incompetence (by not stopping Hitler over the Rhineland and Czechoslovokia) and that it was unreasonable for them to expect the US to pull their chestnuts out of the fire yet again.
Are we 'quits' now? There are a lot of empty chairs at American family tables. How can one call 'quits' on that?
Jan 3rd, 2007, 10:42 PM
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"Are we 'quits' now? There are a lot of empty chairs at American family tables. How can one call 'quits' on that?"
Actually Red there are a lot of 'empty chairs' at family tables all around the world due to this conflict, British and commonwealth forces were fighting and dying 4 years or so before you guys were woken up by Japan.
However it was always going to take a 'united' force to win this one.
Muck
Actually Red there are a lot of 'empty chairs' at family tables all around the world due to this conflict, British and commonwealth forces were fighting and dying 4 years or so before you guys were woken up by Japan.
However it was always going to take a 'united' force to win this one.
Muck
