LoveItaly, my high school French lessons proved to my satisfaction that being taught a language and being able to use it aren't necessarily the same thing.

English is taught widely in China, but mostly by Chinese teachers rather than the relatively small number of native English speakers, among them my two daughters. The results are, to put it kindly, variable. Very few people feel confident enough to engage in the simplest of exchanges, the most common reaction to an approach in English being a look of stark terror. Usually you get further by writing your question in English. I'm told the situation is much the same in Japan - all Japanese schoolchildren have been taught English, with the result that hardly anyone speaks English. In both cases I believe that an overly formal (to us) teaching regime, with little interaction between teacher and class, is part of the problem. (Hmmm - starting to sound more and more like those long-ago French lessons - after 3 years I could hardly speak a word, but I was a whiz at the grammar.)

Never mind, the Australian accents in two Middle Schools in Dalian are coming along nicely.

Obviously it's harder for a Chinese or Japanese kid to learn English than an Italian kid, though, and I'm surprised that TV, movies and the Internet haven't had the effect you'd expect.

BTW, if you drop me an email I'll send you that chile recipe! (Easier as a Word attachment.)

My vote also goes to "Prego." The word with a thousand uses.

And, to know a bit about Italian hand gestures...
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34532329

Have a wonderful trip!

-Sharon

Huitres: I had the impression -- perhaps fallacious and attributable to failing memory -- that "WC" was used all over Europe on the train systems.

The French, though, with their mania for approriation and contraction, actually said "Le water" -- pronounced "Le ouaterre".

Speaking of contraction, not only do the French have "le weekend" (as contrasted with "la fin de semaine" in Quebec) but I recently saw on a French billboard that it is now being contracted to "Le We".

Neil, I agree with you completely. Whew, that is quite a statement ;;)

I feel frustrated because when I was a child (until I was 9 years old) I heard Italian along with English. Learned both languages, along with German thrown in to confuse the issue, except it really didn't.

Than moved and did not hear Italian again for about 5 years. Had forgotten most of it. Than picked it up, more or less. And it has been this way the rest of my life.

Sitting in class and doing the written grammar is fine but it does not help one speak the language. I sure agree. In fact that is no doubt what has happened to so many Italians learning English is school including my SIL. Except neither I or anyone in the family understands after how one year here in the US he was speaking better English than than the typical American. Oh well, obviously smart fellow, he did marry into the family!

Many of my friends in northern Italy have told me over and over that they have the jobs that they have now thanks to me because I worked with them on their English. I never really believed that. But since reading that finding Italians that can speak fluently in English has become quite a problem for corporation in Italy maybe I understand that I did help them. If so I am grateful that I did.

An Italian friend who married a delightful man from Trieste whose family owns an oil brokerage business told me several years ago that business contracts in Europe are now done in English, English being used as the comman language. That rather surprised me.

I am not good at languages. I wish I were. But I do manage to "stumble" my way through with Italian, even with Italians who do not speak a word of English. But afterwards I always wonder how I did that. Too funny!

Take good care.

tedgale, indeed you got me there, I have seen "WC" on train toilet doors on both Italian and French trains. However when spoken, it is not referred to as "WC" in Italy; and "toletta" is written across many a "bagno" door too.

loveitaly, my experience re: English spoken in Italy among Italians is derived from my personal experience with both my fiance and his family, my best friend, who is Italian (living now here in the U.S.); and from historical research studies I have done in Italy. Re: the former, he and his siblings were NEVER taught English, it wasn't even an option. He told me that Latin was studied in school and French was the only other language choice. My best friend (from Ancona) was never offered English as an language option when growing up, only French was offered. My other friend Manuela in Naples purposefully studied English and Spanish in college, but it was not taught in her schools growing up.

I find that very curious because, I too, thought that English was at least an option. I was rather startled to learn it is not compulsory as it is in Germany and some of the northern EU countries. Italian business companies are learning that is it (nearly) mandatory to know English in order to successfully compete along/among the EU countries and the U.S. Businesses pay top dollar to hire language consultants to come in and teach English to their employees (I am trying to do that!). What is also a curious phenomenon is that the English that does exist in Italy is the English from England - not the colloquial American variety. So those in the past that have learned any English, learn it the British way. It is very amusing, expecially coming out stilted because of the usually-accented words in British. (I found this to be the case in Sorrento - a hub for vacationing Brits for over 100 years). In fact, the British presence in Italy has been so dominant since Shakespeare's time that the British English is actually the preferred English. This is demonstrated in the numerous Oxford House English schools all throughout Italy, with a smattering of American universities in larger towns. (There is even a prejudice in hiring only Brits to teach English too!)

I would hope for uniformity country-wide that English would be offered at all levels of the educational process, starting at a young age. I think it is the key to Italy's economic success and is (IMO) one reason that they are not as successful or financially wealthy as Germany.

Huitres, I have been awaiting your reply because I thought for sure you would shed some interesting light on this subject.

It does, in my experience, to seem that the Italian students are taught "English from the UK versus English American style".

All the friends I have that are in their 50's learned French. The friends that I have in their 30's learned English (the UK English). And everyone I know, more or less except in small villages in southern Italy took 3 or so years of Latin.

Come to think of it the houseguest I had from Naples last year did say he had studied and knew French (and also had studied Latin).

My SIL studied Latin and also English except he never used it until he came here to the US. It certainly came back to him quickly.

My friends in the NE Italy all studied English, but yes you are right, the UK version, which in a way added to the confusion in a way. So I guess what they have told me is that I "taught" them the American version of English.

I was just, wrongly of course, under the impression that all school children in Italy were taught English but obviously not.

I had stated on this thread or another that in Southern Italy that the Fiat Plant was running American movies during the workers lunch time to help them learn English. Actually that evidently is being done in Turino.

Huitres, I think that some of my misconception came from friends in the very small village of Cantolupo in SE Italy. Not all, but the younger ones speak English. But after this thread appreared etc. I realized that there English is probably not from their schooling but from the fact that many of them have spent a year or two in New York when they were in their 20's. In fact come to think of it their English has rather a New York accent.

Most interesting thread thanks to EstyOst1.

And many of us have learned a lot.

Thank you again Huitres for your information. Most interesting. And oh how I wish I could go to Italy as much as you do. Happy holidays to you and your dear little daughter.

To this entirely unbiased observer :), to any foreigner the difference between English-English and American-English is so slight as to be almost indistinguishable. I struck up a conversation with a young guy in a bus station in China who told me that he felt lucky to be learning "real English, as they speak in England". Unsurprisingly, his teacher was an Englishman. I gently disabused him of the idea that there was any such thing as "real" English, whatever his Mr Chips might say.

Neil, I do understand what you are saying but the difference in some words between UK English and American English is quite different.

Young Italian lad (well there I go, saying lad instead of boy. was going to change it but than thought no this is what I am referring to. Sometimes I say "nonAmemrican terms thanks to my OZ father) staying with us many years ago. His "English" was good but not perfect. We had a big storm. The power went out. He asked my daughter for a torch. She said "what?" He said something to the affect "we need a torch or two". She thought he meant like a Tiki Torch. She said "we don't have one but if we did we couldn't bring one into the house anyway because
it could burn the house down". Of course I knew he meant a flashlight. And got him one so he could help my husband get out candles and matches etc. Just one small example.

Not a big difference but there is some for sure. Trunk vs boot. A few I don't want to mention. Table linen here not the same name in UK (and probably OZ) if you know what I mean.

I have always understood (perhaps incorrectly) not that I am ever wrong you understand ;;) that some English do not think we Americans speak "proper" English. And some Americans really do have a hard time understanding the English in England, including me.

Like a big family arguement, don't you think? Take care.

Further, those living in tourist towns or areas frequented by English-speaking guests do know some English. But I do wish it was compulsory country-wide, as stated before.

Thanks LoveItaly, for your kind wishes. Merry Christmas to you and your family. I was hoping to get back to Italy on Dec 24 and stay for 1 week, but now not sure if I can get the time off from work as previously assumed!

P.S. LoveItaly, you did do your friends in Italy a great service by teaching them some usable phrases in actually spoken English. Brava! So many of them have been taught limited textbook phrases in English that are really of no use in modern-day, everyday speaking. (similar to basic foreign language classes taught here in the U.S.)

As an aside, I found it amusing that my friends in Livorno were so confused with why the same letter "o" was different in 'show' and 'shop'. In Italian, there is just one "o" with just one sound. English throws them off because of the variances of pronunciation of nearly all vowels. They were taught the English (British) version with the accent and were quite perplexed that we Americans say the "o" like an "ah" (shop). It was like echoing an episode of the "rain in spain falls mostly on the plain"...very amusing!:-)

Huitres: Here we are disagreeing again -- though only over the tiny, tiny point about whether Italian has 1 or 2 O sounds.

(On Dec. 4 I wrote:

"There are only 7 vowel sounds in Italian -- two "O"s, two "E"s, an A,I and a U, pronounced Ooo.)

I *THINK* they're called "closed O" and "open O". The usual, open O would be as in "Io ho", the other (closed)exemplified (perhaps??) by "pero".

But it's a tiny point and the difference, to my ears, of the 2 is less than the difference between the 2 Es.

I though I would get some "quickie" phrases and instead I get a grammar and phonetics lesson!! :-)

Dear Esty, you better get off the computer and get packed for that beautiful trip to Italy! LOL.

Are you getting real excited? Sure wish I was going. Take care.

Huitres, thank you for your compliment.
:">

After reading your kind comments and than thinking back I guess that is what they have been telling me, that I taught them the "day to day" English versus just textbook English which was taught to all of them by Italian teachers using UK English grammar books.

But I am still amazed how quick non-English speakers pick up English.

Well all these wonderful Italians now have fantastic jobs in Italy and good lives. That always makes me so happy.

Take good care.

To clarify my Livorno "o" story....what was confusing my friends was the differences in ENGLISH of how we Americans say different words that have an "o" in them. They kept asking me why did the "o" sound so different in those 2 words, and also in the word "look" and why a double "o" had a "uuuh" sound. I guess my point was to show how difficult it is for an Italian to understand what we, as English-speakers, take for granted as very simple and easy to say words. What is even more confusing to them, is to have a Brit say those same words - it is beyond comprehension! I don't blame them for sticking to their Italian - I would too! :)

Huitres, LOL. But you got me thinking about words such as; read (I will read the book, I have read the book) red (the color), bought and than caught (why an "ou" in bought and "au" in caught). And how about love, move and cove. And light and sight and than throw in site. And on and on into the night!

Your post sure brings back funny moments, sitting around the table having coffee or wine and trying to explain all this. Finally suggestion to my dear Italians was along the lines of "do not worry about why English is so confusing, just memorize everything"

And they did. But too funny. I would almost get a headache (but a happy one).

And than our sayings. For example one evening after a very long day in SF I was asked if we could go to the mall early the next morning before we met friends for lunch. I said, as I was loading the dishwasher and dreaming of how good bed would feel, "well lets just play it be ear". Now that brought up a 30 minute conversation! "Play it by ear? What do you mean, play with our ear? No capito, why do we have to play with our ear?" I couldn't stop laughing (they, keep in mind were not trying to be funny they were truly consfused. I explained it was just a saying which meant we would see how things were in the morning (thinking to myself what time they woke up for instance and how long they took for their coffee etc.). Than the questions how this saying came about. I finally said, totally exhausted "well it means what we hear in the morning, if we hear nothing that interferes with are going to the mall we can if you get up early enough so we can do this". That satisfied them. Sort of a dumb answer but it was the best I could come up with at the moment.

And I agree, anyone that does not speak English gets no wondering look from me. As I have said before I just don't understand how non-English speakers learn English so well.

And I refuse to even discuss my pathetic conversations in Italian. Probably leave everyone chuckling for months.

great story LoveItaly! Languages are so fun, I totally love the differences and nuances in each of them (esp. English, Italian, French). I love learning the local catch phrases or idiomatic expressions used in each, then you feel as if you have the "inside" tract on how the real, native speakers speak(vs. the textbook version taught at home in the U.S.).