kim

My husband and I have remotely considered taking our two year old daughter to Europe. I am a little reluctant. Has anyone had an experience taking a young child from the United States to Europe? If you had a positive experience, was there anything in particular that your child enjoyed doing?

mwg

We took our 3 year old son to Portugal. we concentrated on places that would be pretty to be in rather than Museums and Palaces. We visted castles, beaches and natural areas. I think the adults have to adjust their expectations. We had a fine time.

Maira

Your question reminds me of a nice couple from California that we were talking to briefly at one of the Vatican Museums. For some reason, their toddler started crying (hunger?, bored?, crowds?, sick?...). I could not believe the rude comments and stares that people at the Museum were giving this poor Mom. But, I do agree with the previous poster, you need to adjust your sightseeing choices and time spend. Are you willing to do that? Be honest with you, I would take kids to Europe when they can talk and write about it...but that's me. What are YOUR expectations of a European vacation? <BR> <BR>I saw a lot of families having a great time in the Bavarian Region...

debbie

Kim, <BR>We took our 2.5 year old to Europe for 3 weeks last year. We had a great time. Only two temper tantrums (after long train trips where she didn't nap). We spent time in Murren, Switzerland, the south of France, Paris, and London. Just be _flexible_ and, as previous posters have written, be prepared to adjust expectations (e.g., don't visit a city/town expecting to cover everything on a long list). My child's favorite activities were connected to being outdoors (e.g., pushing her stroller everywhere, watching water fountains, having outdoor picnics, playing with her ball in parks or gardens, etc.). We'd schedule museum visits in the morning and leave most afternoons for walking the streets while she was napping in her stroller. <BR> <BR>We also visited lots of parks, peeked into a lot of toy stores (once spent close to 3 hours in the Galeries Lafayette dept store in Paris because they have an entire floor devoted to toys, play areas, etc.), ate lots of french fries and ice cream, and made friends with some local kids. <BR> <BR>Our style of travel has changed post-child (we plan more and make reservations from the States) but being prepared for lots of situations has made traveling not as stressful. And being with child has given us "permission" to visit places we wouldn't otherwise think about visiting such as the Zurich zoo. <BR> <BR>Feel free to write if you have any questions. Our experience with my daughter was so positive that next week we leave to Europe for a 3.5 week trip (spending time mainly in Italy).

Rhonda

<BR>I'll be taking my four year old and my infant for a month in France this summer. Although there are lots of extra things to consider when you travel with children I believe there are lots of benefits. My daughter has visited more countries then many adults and we've very much enjoyed ourselves. I think if you plan for your child in order to make it fun for her too you will all do well. I want my children to grow up with my love for travel and a desire to try new things. So far so good. We try hard to teach her to be polite and courteous and she's become a wonderful traveler. Consider the temperment and interests of your child when making your plans and be realistic as far as the amount of activities a child can handle. There are several books about travel with children for specific ideas.

Ralph

Gee, Maira, all those stares and disgusted looks may have been the result of the parents not removing the child immediately!

judy

Kim, is this your first trip to Europe? I don't think I would have wanted to take my daughter at the age of two, but she was a very demanding child. However, at the age of ten, she was a complete joy to travel with. It may depend what kind of trip you have in mind...good luck...I'm amazed at the fortitude that young parents have these days... <BR>

Valerie

I am sorry, but I have been watching this thread for the past two days and must put my comment in. I don't want to offend anyone but my vote would be to leave the very young children home. Most often the flight is too long and a trip seems very demanding on the little ones. Parents should get away on their own and enjoy each other instead of bringing their children everywhere. Why bring an unhappy crying child on an eight hour flight to annoy the rest of the passengers who are trying to sleep, or try to eat in a nice cafe outdoors and have to hear a parent yelling at a child to behave all of the time. It is not the child's fault, they don't understand. Leave the young children home!

Maira

Ralph, agree with you completely. That's the point I tried to make. Obviously, spending two hours on the Vatican Museums is not the thing to do with an alert toddler first thing in the AM....

AJ

I get a real kick out of all the folks who think children should be seen and not heard, never brought into a restaurant or museum, and REMOVED IMMEDIATELY (Ralph!) if he or she misbehaves. That is not how you raise responsible, independent, well-mannered children. Conversely, you must bring your children into museums and restaurants, you must let them talk (no, not scream, whine or non-stop cry), you cannot simply REMOVE them. When a child "loses his composure", this is a moment when the parent needs to step up to the plate to teach the child what is correct. That is what a good parent does; the poor parent just whisks the kid away to avoid personal embarassment. <BR> <BR>Yes, parents should travel sometimes alone. My husband and I do that, but have also taken our kids, since infancy, to places ranging from Caribbean beaches to Boston brunches, Florentine monastery to Mayan pyramids. Guess what? I would take my kids anywhere and know that they would behave and would be welcomed. And I believe it is because of the early exposure to varied environments and stresses. <BR> <BR>Here's another perspective. Many people save up their entire working lives to retire and travel. Some may resent the fact that some children get to travel while young, when they had to wait so long. I actually had a (rather bitter) woman tell me that travels were intended for people to enjoy when they're older. <BR> <BR>Kim, you should decide what kind of a holiday is needed by your family - do you need to strengthen the marital relationship, bond as a threesome with your child, relax and wander around as a trio, cram lots of art into two weeks? Whatever it is will dictate whether you bring your child. And whether you do or not, you have my blessing, (even if she loses her composure going over the pond, which she probably will...!)

Rhonda

<BR>Kim, <BR> <BR>If you're still looking for encouragement try Rick Steves' website. Look at the graffiti board on Travel with Children. The address is www.ricksteves.com

Maira

I reiterate that there are places for children and there are places where adults go to enjoy adult activities. It is not unreasonable to expect that a parent remove a crying baby from the premises of a museum (such as the Vatican Museums) if the crying does not subside. It is called common courtesy; taking an alert and energetic toddler to an art Museum to spend two hours is called lack of common sense.

DAWN

After many trips to Europe, I don't think it is a approapiate place for small children and babies. I think it is a wonderful experience to share with children over the age of say 6, that have been taught manners, and know how to behave while out in public places. I don't think a child understands or knows where they are before that age. After age 6, I think Europe can be a fantastic experience for the child. Many people, mostly Americans, from my experience, seem to think that children should be dragged everywhere they go. There doesn't seem to be child approraite places like there were in my youth. I am in my late thirties, so it wasn't that long ago. I made alot of money babysitting during my teenage years for people who went out and left their children home, so they could enjoy themselves alone. There are experience for children and there are experiences for adults, and sometime the two shall meet. How many times have you seen the babies dragged to craft shows, the mall, stores, etc. crying, hot, cranky? Because their parents put their desires over that of their kids. A friend of mine owns a restaurant and I can't tell you how many parents bring their babies and toddlers out at all hours of the night to eat. I guess they could not find a babysitter. But does a baby belong out at 10 or 11 at night. When I was young, babies and small children were in bed by 7:00, 7:30. Not now, they are out galavanting at all hours of the night. And should I as a paying customer be angry to sit next to someone who doesn't have the sense to keep their child home at that hour, and then they start crying? You bet I do! If you are going to Europe to experience the history, architecture, churches, wonderful restaurants, museums, etc. don't bring a small child. If you are going to experience parks, zoos, playing in the ocean, etc. then by all means bring your child. Sorry for rattling on and on, but this is something that peeves me everyday in the US. Oh, and it seems to me that European children are better behaved than Americans. I think you can go and "Experience Europe", but be reasonable in your expectations, and always be respectful of others.

AJ

Dawn, so this is your plan. Keep the child out of museums and restaurants until the magical age of 6, at which point in time the child will know how to be well behaved in museums and restaurants, having never set foot in a museum or restaurant. How on earth do you think children learn to be well-behaved in museums and restaurants? By avoiding them? <BR> <BR>I am a firm believer that children should be courteous. I do not let my kids disrupt other people (for very long, at least), but the attitude that one peep out of a child gets him banned is ludicrous. <BR> <BR>Finally, for your information, European children are not better behaved than American children. Boy am I tired of hearing this one. Nor are they better educated and historically or geographically superior to American kids. (Neal????)

SusanP

I must agree with Dawn and some of the other posters -- Europe is not a place for babies and toddlers. I never saw anyone with a small child past 6:00 p.m. Restaurants and evening strolls seemed to be for adults only. <BR> <BR>One comment about the behavior of European kids though; I saw many preschool and school age groups walking along the street during the day, and was pleasantly shocked at how well behaved they were. I noticed that the adult supervisors issued orders and they were followed without complaint by the children. By comparison, here in the U.S., I witness adults over and over again asking their toddlers to make CHOICES -- "Do you want this one, this one or this one?" This is usually a forerunner to the inevitable tantrum. And of course, no American parent removes their screaming child from the store, restaurant, etc... No wonder the Europeans scowl at the Americans and their little darlings!

DAWN

Whoa AJ! You seem to have taken my words out of context. I never said that they should be removed at the first peep. Those are your words. I simply stated that before age 6 or so, I don't know that many kids, including my own that are interested in museums, churches, history, architecture, etc. These are usually places that people have traveled many hours and spend much money to see, and THEY ARE THERE because they're interested. Surely, if you have a child interested in these things, I think that is to be applauded. And I'm sure you will explain to them that in museums you are to use hushed voices and in church you are to be silent. When I was little and my Grandmother took me to the MOMA in NYC, I was told how to act, and I was also told what would happen to me if I acted up. Before 6 or so, I think that is hard for a child to comprehend. Because as I grew older and proved that I could behave myself, I was taken to more and more places. But I knew what would happen to me if I acted up. Secondly, I never said that European children were smarter, etc. I don't think that at all. But I have never seen the behavior that I've witnessed in the states. I agree completely with Susan.

Beth

This is another one of those topics that seems to come up cyclically in this forum, and it really amuses me. The idea that any one can make generalizations about whats right for all children, or about European vs American children just amazes me! <BR> <BR>First, anyone who thinks European children are better behaved than American children, or who don't go out late at night with their parents is visiting a far different Europe than me! Oaky, maybe its just Greek children, but I've seen them out in the taverna's with their parents at all hours running around the tables driving everybody crazy. <BR> <BR>the answer to the question "should I take my child to Europe" has to be a very personal one that only the parent can answer. Lots of things factor into it. How well behaved is YOUR child? Do you have any options, besides waiting 11 years to go to Europe? Maybe you should try out an American art museum for a couple hours before you attempt the Vatican. There is no absolute answer, it can work for some people and not for others. Also, it seems sometimes very small infants or toddlers are much better behaved than ~5 year olds. Maybe at 2 Kim is better off than waiting for 4. <BR> <BR>Dawn, I'm about the same age as you, and the reason things have changed so much has to do with the way the American family has changed. There are far more mothers working than when we were growing up. So the parents don't want to get out by themselves like they did when we were kids. They want to go out and let someone else cook, and enjoy what time they have with their kids. Also baby sitters are harder to find and far more expensive than when we did it. So I think we should cut the parents a little slack when it comes to taking their kids along.

ilisa

Kim, a couple of months ago I posted a similar questions, asking at what age is it appropriate to take children to Europe. You may want to check it out because it generated many interesting responses. To those that object to a crying baby in a public place - I realize I am mother of only seven weeks and am fairly new at this game, but guess what I found out? Babies cry. Simple. Fancy that. While we would all like to have the prodigal child who can communicate his or her needs quietly and in complete sentences at the age of one month, that is not possible. While I agree a parent needs to remove the baby as quickly as possible, it just never seems quick enough for some people. G-d forbid should they have to hear a baby do what comes naturally. Oh, and to the person who said Europe is not for babies and toddlers, what do the Europeans do? Ship them off to America where we are obviously all heathens? Oh and don't worry. I am not planning to take Jordana to Europe in the near future. <BR>

mwg

The responses to this question seem to fall into two categories. the first category is composed of people who enjoy doing things with their children and are prepared to make compromises to make it work. The second category seems to be composed of largely single people prepared to tell parents how they should act. Being a babysitter is not being a parent. Of course you wouldn't bring a two year old to a two hour lecture on Renaissance Art. To then say going to Europe should not be done with children is a little ridiculous. Other parents may have tips about what worked and, obviously, what didn't work for them. These insights are helpful.

greg

It is not much different than taking children around US for most part. Places requiring confinement in a quiet place for a long time is not a good idea in US or Europe. Just skip these attractions or switch turns with your husband to do these things. It is not a difficult thing to overcome. We visited proportionally more outdoor things when my children were small. Frankly, they had better attention span at 2yrs old than when they are 16, when everything we do are BORING. <BR> <BR>The big difference, however, is that it is harder to drive up to the attraction than in the US. You walk more. That means carrying her things and most likely herself on your back!