Switzerland - what a country!
Jun 25th, 2003, 10:25 AM
#21
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Thank you, BettyK. It has been donkey years since I have had such a good laugh! While I live in Philadelphia, I was born in London. Therefore, I am European. You don't have to give me a history lesson on our attitude/customs. I have also travelled all over the world, from Switzerland to Sri Lanka to Argentina to Nepal. I must say that the Swiss are probably the most aloof people I have ever encountered. I never said they were rude or impolite. I said CHILLY. The Swiss remind me of Mrs. Danvers (played by the great ENGLISH actress, Dame Judith Andersen.) in Sir Alfred Hitchcock's REBECCA. Mannerly, yes. But, hardly the cozy type. This is just my observation.
All nations contain racist people, not just Switzerland.
All nations contain racist people, not just Switzerland.
Jun 25th, 2003, 10:46 AM
#22
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ThinGorjus, my point was that many Americans judge Europeans based on our customs and ways of thinking. Then they seem upset or disappointed when they find out things are not the same.
While I have only lived in England and Austria, I never thought of the Swiss as "aloof". Obviously, each of us came away with a differnt impression.
While I have only lived in England and Austria, I never thought of the Swiss as "aloof". Obviously, each of us came away with a differnt impression.
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:17 AM
#23
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Thankfully not everyone plans their holiday based on history. With the massacre of the American Indians, the theft of their land and slavery who could justify visiting the USA? I would agree that we should not visit countries that have present policies contrary to our beliefs. For instance I did not visit South Africa during the Apartheid. Nor would I visit Israel today because of the occupation of Palestine.
In any case even for those that base their holidays on history, Switzerland should be at the top of their choice. This country has never invaded another country, it has never committed any atrocities nor practiced racial discrimination. What other country can claim such clean record?
In any case even for those that base their holidays on history, Switzerland should be at the top of their choice. This country has never invaded another country, it has never committed any atrocities nor practiced racial discrimination. What other country can claim such clean record?
Jun 27th, 2003, 04:09 AM
#25
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Switzerland may not have committed any direct atrocities, but its hands are hardly clean. How many high level Nazis kept Swiss bank accounts to protect their ill gotten gains? Even today, banks in Switzerland, Lugano particularly, are known for holding and hiding the money of lots of bad guys, including Russian mafia and even those closely connected to Rumsfeld's former photo op buddy, Saddam Hussein. And they know the money is dirty.
However, I don't think this is a reason not to visit Switzerland. There isn't a single country who hasn't done--or helped some other country do--something terrible. And most people in Switzerland are honest, decent, and caring, as are most people in most places.
However, I don't think this is a reason not to visit Switzerland. There isn't a single country who hasn't done--or helped some other country do--something terrible. And most people in Switzerland are honest, decent, and caring, as are most people in most places.
Jun 27th, 2003, 04:19 AM
#26
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ustraveller, I live in Switzerland and admire most of how society works here and think most people are wonderful. But to say there has been no racial disrimination shows you are misinformed. There is a great deal of what I think is discrimination against immigrants. Did you know that children of immigrants who came in the 60's, young adults now who were born and completely raised and educated in Switzerland are not allowed citizenship (citizenship is done at the very local level, seemingly little national control, and there is blatant discrimination)? Did you know that the money laundering that does occur helps steal money from poor nations and puts it directly into the pockets of dictators? I like living here but my eyes are open to the ugliness too, just as I despise a lot of what my country does around the world as well.
Jun 27th, 2003, 05:34 AM
#27
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Chris I am not sure you understand what racial discrimination means. Immigrants that came in the 60s were mainly from Italy and other Southern European States. I don't see any racial difference between these immigrants and Swiss citizens. To become naturalized, you need to have resided in Switzerland for at least twelve years, three of which occurred within the five years prior to the request. Time spent in Switzerland between the ages of 10 and 20 years counts double.
There are two phases:
Phase one: federal authorization and the following conditions must be met:
You are integrated in the Swiss community.
You are accustomed to Swiss way of life and practices.
You comply with the Swiss legal system.
You in no way compromise the internal or external security of Switzerland.
Phase two: canton and municipal decisions (this is because Switzerland is a federal state). Conditions vary greatly from one region to the next. Most municipalities apply rather open policies. Yes there are few municipalities (usually with a small population and way up in the Swiss Alps) that have a more restrictive approach, but this is their constitutional right.
I know several Swiss of Iranian origins that have been naturalized without any problem and they were not born in Switzerland.
Also Switzerland is a major financial center and in every major financial center there is unfortunately money laundering going on. You are likely to find that there are more murders in major cities than in small villages. The same is true for money laundering and financial centers. The bigger the financial center the more cases of money laundering there will be. Just look at London or New York.
You need to open you eyes to see the global picture my friend!
There are two phases:
Phase one: federal authorization and the following conditions must be met:
You are integrated in the Swiss community.
You are accustomed to Swiss way of life and practices.
You comply with the Swiss legal system.
You in no way compromise the internal or external security of Switzerland.
Phase two: canton and municipal decisions (this is because Switzerland is a federal state). Conditions vary greatly from one region to the next. Most municipalities apply rather open policies. Yes there are few municipalities (usually with a small population and way up in the Swiss Alps) that have a more restrictive approach, but this is their constitutional right.
I know several Swiss of Iranian origins that have been naturalized without any problem and they were not born in Switzerland.
Also Switzerland is a major financial center and in every major financial center there is unfortunately money laundering going on. You are likely to find that there are more murders in major cities than in small villages. The same is true for money laundering and financial centers. The bigger the financial center the more cases of money laundering there will be. Just look at London or New York.
You need to open you eyes to see the global picture my friend!
Jun 27th, 2003, 11:40 AM
#28
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Since some travelers seem to be interested in Switzerland's history during WWII, let me recommend the following link for an unbiased account:
http://i2i.org/Publications/IP/Other...witzerland.htm
http://i2i.org/Publications/IP/Other...witzerland.htm
Jun 28th, 2003, 10:17 AM
#29
Are the Swiss different in attitude in the various regions - French, German, or Italian speaking parts of the country?
I ask because I have had only favorable experiences with friendly and helpful local people in the French-speaking region along the lake outside Geneva.
I ask because I have had only favorable experiences with friendly and helpful local people in the French-speaking region along the lake outside Geneva.
Jun 28th, 2003, 10:59 AM
#30
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Thank you for that link, lostisland. I do not question Switzerland's heroism and galor during WWII. I noted that article was written in 1998 - it was around that time that discoveries were made concerning Switzerland's role in collaborating with the Nazis, and their unwillingness to provide reparations to Jews who had swiss bank accounts which were liquidated after the war - proceeds which benefitted the country. After much international lobbying, Jews were finally given a chance to get some of their money back, my family included.
Jun 29th, 2003, 05:13 PM
#32
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Zippo: The United States gave Britain all support short of war during 1940-1941. This included escorting British and neutral ships halfway to U.K. ports, the turning over of 50 U. S. destroyers in exchange for leases on bases and other properties in the Western Hemisphere, production of arms, ammunitions, and foodstuffs for Britain, the housing of thousands of refugee British children in America, the training of RAF aircrews, the repair and refit of British warships in American shipyards, etc., etc., etc. Don't talk to me about history, Zippo, because I was there and helped make it.
Jun 30th, 2003, 07:52 AM
#34
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Dear usbeauty, I will not respond personally to the claim that Swiss Banks <liquidated> Jewish accounts after the war. And as you mentioned more recent investigations have shed the light once and for all on this issue. For the final conclusion please see the quote below as well as the corresponding links.
After a four year independent investigation into claims that Swiss banks misappropriated Holocaust's victims funds, The Times, 13th October 2001 edition summarized the findings under the title <Swiss Holocaust cash revealed to be myth>:
<most dormant Swiss bank accounts thought to have belonged to Holocaust survivors were opened by wealthy, non-Jewish people who then forgot about their money. The announcement marks the end of a four-year independent investigation into the archives and vaults of the world's most secretive banking system.
It will come as a disappointment to many Jewish families, who were sure that their dead relatives left behind fortunes in Switzerland. A 17-member tribunal based in Zurich was set up in 1997 to investigate the identities of 5,500 foreign accounts and 10,000 Swiss accounts that have lain dormant since the end of the Second World War.
The tribunal said that it had processed about 10,000 claims in response to the list of dormant account names published by the Swiss Bankers' Association five years ago. Only 200 accounts - containing £6.9 million - could be traced to Holocaust victims.>
<Switzerland came under heavy criticism in 1997-98 for its reluctance to consider wartime claims. The United States threatened it with sanctions and relatives of Holocaust victims launched class action lawsuits in the US.
The Swiss banks agreed to a settlement of $1.5 billion (£1.03 billion) on the understanding that they would be spared further Holocaust claims. The banks say they will pay the costs of tracking down the dormant accounts from their own coffers.>
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/10/SwissBanks.html
A more in depth analasys of the whole crisis can be found at:
http://shamir.mediamonitors.net/october172001.html
After a four year independent investigation into claims that Swiss banks misappropriated Holocaust's victims funds, The Times, 13th October 2001 edition summarized the findings under the title <Swiss Holocaust cash revealed to be myth>:
<most dormant Swiss bank accounts thought to have belonged to Holocaust survivors were opened by wealthy, non-Jewish people who then forgot about their money. The announcement marks the end of a four-year independent investigation into the archives and vaults of the world's most secretive banking system.
It will come as a disappointment to many Jewish families, who were sure that their dead relatives left behind fortunes in Switzerland. A 17-member tribunal based in Zurich was set up in 1997 to investigate the identities of 5,500 foreign accounts and 10,000 Swiss accounts that have lain dormant since the end of the Second World War.
The tribunal said that it had processed about 10,000 claims in response to the list of dormant account names published by the Swiss Bankers' Association five years ago. Only 200 accounts - containing £6.9 million - could be traced to Holocaust victims.>
<Switzerland came under heavy criticism in 1997-98 for its reluctance to consider wartime claims. The United States threatened it with sanctions and relatives of Holocaust victims launched class action lawsuits in the US.
The Swiss banks agreed to a settlement of $1.5 billion (£1.03 billion) on the understanding that they would be spared further Holocaust claims. The banks say they will pay the costs of tracking down the dormant accounts from their own coffers.>
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/10/SwissBanks.html
A more in depth analasys of the whole crisis can be found at:
http://shamir.mediamonitors.net/october172001.html
Jun 30th, 2003, 08:36 AM
#35
"The funiculars took us to Glion and Mt. Peladin (where we had a fabulous dinner at La Mirador)"
Back to your trip report. I will be in Switzerland in September, could you expand upon the places you mentioned above? I will be in Montreux for a couple of days and then will travel to Grindelwald for three. Also thinking about stopping by Gruyere. Thanks.
Back to your trip report. I will be in Switzerland in September, could you expand upon the places you mentioned above? I will be in Montreux for a couple of days and then will travel to Grindelwald for three. Also thinking about stopping by Gruyere. Thanks.
Jun 30th, 2003, 09:14 AM
#36
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USNR if you were there, do you remember this?
http://www.holocaust-history.org/que...st-louis.shtml
http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/st-louis.html
http://www.holocaust-history.org/que...st-louis.shtml
http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/st-louis.html
Jun 30th, 2003, 09:33 AM
#37
hi Bev, Thanks for posting your trip report. I've been to the Montreux, Vevey, Lausanne area 4 times so was interested in your experiences. I have always stayed with a good friend who lives there, so to hear about your hotel, etc. was good and useful information.
p.s. Was it the title "what a country" that attracted all the posters who want to discuss history of the region?
p.s. Was it the title "what a country" that attracted all the posters who want to discuss history of the region?
Jun 30th, 2003, 09:39 AM
#38
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Or we could just leave these good folks to argue amoung themselves and meet, let's say, at another thread -- maitaitom, what was the lead line of your original one with questions? or there's always the support group thread, though that's probably asking for trouble. affectionately, J.
Jun 30th, 2003, 09:41 AM
#40
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Maitaitom, the funicular to Mt. Peladin is from Vevey at the bus station. The fare is around 7 swiss francs, I believe. La Mirador is within walking distance of the funciular stop at Mt. Peladin (to the west). There's also a restaurant at the funicular station where we stopped for a beer. From the funicular station you can walk or take a bus to the top of Mt. Peladin. We ate on the terrace at La Mirador and the views of Lake Geneva, Vevey and the French Alps are wonderful. The food and service were also very good.
I believe the funicular to Glion was from Territet, just east of Montreux. It's very near the train station at Territet, just look for the signs. At the top of the funicular we walked to the Hotel Victoria (up the street and to the east) and had lemonade on the terrace - again with beautiful views of the town and lake. From there you can take the train up higher, but I can't remember the name of the area it goes to. We got there too late in the day to continue past Glion and still catch a train back down. The funicular comes right into the train station at Glion.
We also went to Gruyeres and toured the cheese factory that is right at the train station. Now I wish that we had walked or taken the bus into the town of Gruyeres also. I think there is a castle there to tour. Instead we continued to Broc to the chocolate factory that was not open on Saturday!
I believe the funicular to Glion was from Territet, just east of Montreux. It's very near the train station at Territet, just look for the signs. At the top of the funicular we walked to the Hotel Victoria (up the street and to the east) and had lemonade on the terrace - again with beautiful views of the town and lake. From there you can take the train up higher, but I can't remember the name of the area it goes to. We got there too late in the day to continue past Glion and still catch a train back down. The funicular comes right into the train station at Glion.
We also went to Gruyeres and toured the cheese factory that is right at the train station. Now I wish that we had walked or taken the bus into the town of Gruyeres also. I think there is a castle there to tour. Instead we continued to Broc to the chocolate factory that was not open on Saturday!
