Macaroni09

Hello everyone!

Please help formulate travel plans for Switzerland & Italy in August. DH and I are retired gypsy travelers. We love small towns and great cities, art, history & architecture. We eat at local places, love meeting people and drinking wine. He hikes tall mountains, I like shorter hikes, so in Switzerland he is constrained to 4 hrs or so. How does one take hiking gear and still pack light?

Our friends have just moved to Titeret, near Montreux on Lake Geneva. I am thinking of arriving in Geneva and taking the train to their place, where we will spend Fri & Sat before heading out on our own. (We could stop a few days in Amsterdam, which we have not visited, or Paris, which we love, to get past jetlag.)

It looks like the trains are the way to go in Switzerland. These forums have some great posts, and guide books help, but I know we are very late on the planning end. So, maybe a part of the Golden Express, Bernese Oberland, Interlaken...finishing in Ticino area to head into Italy. (What, no Matterhorn?!!) What about Lugano or Bellagio? Would that be too similar to Switzerland? Please help with maximizing experience and making this flow. We have 4-5 weeks, so should have time to see a lot. In Italy we will rent a car and drive through Florence & Tuscany. Home to Houston probably from Rome.

Would love suggestions for reasonable places to stay--not $$$ if we can help it, but still nice. Is 150SF really out of the question in Switzerland?

We have visited Italy before, car & trains, but cannot get enough. Especially small towns, which we will focus on along with Florence. Would still love to hear your Italy suggestions!

Thank you so much!!

PalenQ

. These forums have some great posts, and guide books help, but I know we are very late on the planning end. So, maybe a part of the Golden Express, Bernese Oberland, Interlaken...finishing in Ticino area to head into Italy. (What, no Matterhorn?!!) What about Lugano or Bellagio?>

How about:

Montreux area

Jungfrau Region- take Golden Pass to Interlaken-Ost and hop trains to some neat mountain village.

Lucerne - take the Golden Pass or regular trains from Interlaken over the Brunig Pass and base here for some days - lake boats are great - Mt Rigi, Mt Titlis, Mt Pilatus all are great day trips

Lucerne-St Moritz - from Lucerne take trains via Arth-Goldau to Goschenen - take the shuttle train up to Andermatt (another neat area to stay in) and trains like the Glacier Express or regular trains to St Moritz and the Engadine.

Engadine - several days can be spent here without being bored - take the Bernina Express up to the summit stations like Bernina Ospiz and walk around a lovely Alpine pond to a glacier or from other stations cable cars to glaciers, etc.

When ready to leave take Bernina Pass Railway to Tirano, Italian terminus and then trains to Varenna-Esino for boats to Bellagio or any place on Lake Como and go on from there. Or take the Bernina Express bus from Tirano to Lugano and go from there.

To me the Bernina Pass Railway is the top scenic railway in Switzerland and a neat way to Italy - for lots of details on Swiss trains check www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

A Swiss Pass is a no-brainer for wide-ranging Swiss travels IMO - covers not only trains but lake boats, postal buses, city transports and gives free entry to 470 or so Swiss museums.

PalenQ

The Bernina Pass railway - awesome baby!

https://www.google.com/search?q=bern...w=1745&bih=868

Macaroni09

PalenQ, Thank you for such a wonderful reply! I'll spend some time now on these sites and looking at maps.

How warm did you dress in these mountain towns?

swandav2000

Hi Macaroni09,

Your friend's town is actually spelled Territet, so that may help if you use snail mail or want to look it up at google maps or anything (I attended school there in the 1960s).

Your (lucky!!) friends can help you with things to do in the Montreux area, but just a few to choose from might be a visit/walk through the vineyards of the Lavaux (Lutry - Cully would be around 1h, or Lutry - Rivaz would be around 2h). Lutry is a favorite town in the Lavaux because of its pretty lakeside area and its pretty, sign-posted walk through the medieval buildings. It also has my friend's favorite red wine cave.

There are also some great walks in the hills above Montreux & Vevey -- Sonloup to Les Avants, for example.

Spend a few hours, at least, in Vevey, getting lost in the tangled streets of its old town next to the lake.

Walk along the lake from Montreux to Chillon (Territet is just before Chillon), about 45 minutes, and visit Chillon. If you want, continue walking to Villeneuve, another 45 minutes. This flowered lakeside path is, imo, one of the best things about the town. You can return to Territet by bus #201.

Don't neglect Montreux's old town, which you can reach directly from Territet. Just walk UPhill, then you can walk parallel to the lake through the communities of Veytaux and then old town Montreux. Very few tourists ever go up there.

Yes, for your onward trip, you can take the Golden Pass to Interlaken, the second-best scenic train in Switzerland, I think (I agree with Pal that the very best one is the Bernina Express).

How much time will you keep for Switzerland? If you have about 14 days, you'll have time to see the Montreux area, the Jungfrau area, and the Engadin Valley before taking the Bernina Express to Italy. That would be quite a great trip, imo.

For dressing in mountain towns, it is necessary to layer. You can have 40 deg mornings and 80 deg afternoons on the same day. I wear a t-shirt next to my skin (washes easily & dries overnight), then a top or light-weight sweater, and have a cardigan available, and finally a raincoat.

Have fun as you plan!

s

kja

You might want to check my trip report for Switzerland -- lots of the things you describe as your interests, mostly short and relatively flat hikes, lots of absolutely wonderful moments. Just click on my name to find it. I hope it helps!

PalenQ

How warm did you dress in these mountain towns?>

Be prepared for cool and warmth - sun pops out it gets warm - goes under maybe cool - layering with sweaters - long-sleeved shirts you can take off a layer when it gets warm and walking can generate heat too.

In August it should be fairly nice but you never know.

PalenQ

THE hike to not miss in the Jungfrau Region - even if you are not a hiker - the Mannlichen to Kleine Schieidegg Ridge Walk - a few miles of wide gently descending footpath that lets you see both the Grindelwald amphitheatre-like valley and the deep gorge-like Lauterbrunnen Valley at the same time - and facing you always is the glacier-girdled Jungfrau Massif

At Kl Scheidegg you can hop the train to Jungfraujoch or back to Grindelwald or Wengen - two places that have cable cars up to The Mannlichen to start the hike.

The Mannlichen is known as a tremendous viewing point - not only of Interlaken far below nestled between its two lovely lakes but a lateral view of the spiny ridge of central Switzerland.

the path is well groomed and wide so that no special walking shoes required.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mann...sAQIGw&dpr=1.1

Those in for a longer hike can from Kl Scheidegg walk down a wide trail that mountain bikes can even navigate to Wengen - a wonderful easy but longish downhill walk I loved- again great views all around.

Melnq8

<<How does one take hiking gear and still pack light?>>

In August, easy. Not so much when hiking in December.

Hiking poles and layers in suitcase. Hiking boots on feet. Day pack doubles as carryon for flight. Done.

PalenQ

for most of the popular hikes you need no special gear but I guess you're talking about real hiking where special shoes and poles are needed - I've done all the hikes about in both the Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen areas and always in summer and in regular sports shoes - hiking poles are cheap so you could buy them there and keep as a souvenir - probably places to rent hiking gear too like at:

http://www.grindelwaldsports.ch/en/y...eparation.html and others - including some at Kleine Scheidegg above which the hiking gets much more serious.

Macaroni09

melnq8, I laughed out loud when I read your solution to packing to hike. DONE!

SwandaV, Thank you for such great input! How lucky you were to go to school in Territet! Thanks to you add kja, we now want to spend more time in the Lake Geneva area, Gruyeres, Lausanne, Montreux & Vevey, the promenade to Chillon & walks in Lavaux vinyards. Would love to know the name of your friend's red wine cave in Lutry.

If we stay on the east end of the lake, is there any point in staying at all in Geneve? In your opinion, should we stay a few days in Gruyeres or Lausanne before hitting Montreux?

Seems to make sense to take the Golden Pass to Interlaken from Montreux. Where did you stay in Interlaken? Yes, it seems 2 weeks+ for Switzerland will be awesome!

PalenQ,
Yes, the Kl S walk from Manlichen to Wengen looks perfect. I'd like to stay in Wengen. Any suggestions for nice lowchF lodgings?

kja, When I first read your trip report-a couple of weeks ago!--my head was spinning. You are a really great planner. Now I realize that our trip will definitely pull everything we can fit from your experience into our 2 weeks+. Thank you so much for responding! Have ordered the Michelin map of Switzerland, and will get the Rough Guide. Have been using Fodors and Rick Steves, but with no planning map, it is hard to see how pieces of the trip flow together.

Definitely want to see Upper & Lower Engadine, & part of the Bernina Express while not seat bound for too long. Esp since I was thinking to go S to Italy after, and you were going to Zurich!

Lucerne, Pontresina, Mustair, Guarda... can you help me sequence the trip to head S at the end?

Especially enjoyed the notes to your friends at the end of your Gems TR!!

PalenQ

In your opinion, should we stay a few days in Gruyeres or Lausanne before hitting Montreux?

Seems to make sense to take the Golden Pass to Interlaken from Montreux. Where did you stay in Interlaken?>

IMO - not speaking for swandav but as one who has been around that area a lot - most folks will love Vevey and Montreux as bases - really nice smaller towns on the lake - Vevey especially gets rave reviews and then day trip to Lausanne and Gruyeres - Lausanne a few minutes away and a big rather modern city and expensive and Gruyeres about an hour or so by scenic train (part of the Golden Pass train from Montreux) and next to Gruyeres is the Cailler Nestle Chocolate Factory for Willy Wonka-esque tours. to spend more than a half day in Lausanne or Gruyeres for most would be enough. Be sure to ride the lake boats from Montreux to chateau Chillon and beyond - I went over the France for a few hours at Evian-les-Bains by boat - Swiss Pass 100% valid even to France.

I will answer about Interlaken for swandav - she really dislikes the town and would never ever stay there and IMO though Interlaken is rather nice if you get off the beaten path (as Swandav indeed has done) is quite nice IMO to STAY up in dem hills - in a Wengen or Grindelwald where the glacier-girdled peaks arise thousands of feet above lush meadows and many hotels have balconies with such views- but if cheap accommodations are your thing then Interlaken has many for your budget and under IME and Grindelwald some too- Wengen I think not as it is smaller and budget travelers don't stay there I think.

Macaroni09

Wengen for sure! Then not plan to also stay in Interlaken area?

kja

Thanks for the kind words, Macaroni09! I'm glad you found some value in my TR. I trust you noticed that it was a VERY tightly packed trip, just manageable for a solo traveler (and moving quickly is much more feasible for solo travelers). With only half the time and more than just yourself, you will need to be very selective. So while I can understand your desire to do so, I'm not sure you have time for the Lake Geneva area AND the Bernese Oberland AND the Engadine.

The most likely sequence for the places you mention would, I think, be Lucerne, Guarda, Mustair, Pontresina ... but you'll have to see what suits you -- or hope that someone with greater expertise jumps in.

swandav2000

Hi again,

Since your trip is in August, yes, Wengen would be the best spot imo for your stay in the Jungfrau region. In July and August, the towns of the Jungfrau region are beset by tour busses and those clumps and clumps of confused off-loaded passengers wandering around with nowhere to go. Most tour busses stop & park in either Interlaken or in Grindelwald (Grindelwald is as high as they can drive to), and to me, that really detracts from the charm and beauty of the place (lines of tour busses parked along the street, those clumps of confused folks standing in the entranceway of the shops . . .).

Because Wengen is car-free, you can avoid much of that scene. Yes, the bus passengers do go through Wengen to get to the Jungfraujoch, but most of them just stick to the train station area -- so if you spend your days or afternoons in another part of the village, you will miss them entirely. I took my mom on a visit to the area once in August, and we stayed in Grindelwald. My mom didn't like to get around much, so we spent most of the day in town, wandering around the shops and soaking up the views from various spots -- and it really was ruined by the tour busses & off-loaded passengers. We spent one day in Wengen, and it was as different as night & day! It was peaceful & calm & serene, and the beauty of the peaks surrounding us was awesome. So -- yes, please do plan on staying in Wengen.

I've stayed at the 3-star Alpenrose in Wengen two times and like it a lot. It's about a 10-minute walk from the train station, and its rooms have views of the peaks opposite you and down the valley. The hotel has an electric van, and they will collect you at the station once you email them your arrival time (I think most hotels in Wengen will do this). The rates are 141 chf per person, including breakfast and dinner, for a room without a view. The chef is the owner, and the hotel has been in his family for 3 generations. I've always taken half-board and enjoyed the dinners a lot. Their daughter was in hotel school the last time I visited -- they have an album showing the history of the hotel.

As for Gruyeres, no, I don't think it would be worthwhile to stay there overnight. It really is a village with one street, and everything is on one side or the other of that street. It is filled with cafes, restaurants, souvenir shops, and a few hotels; it also has a beautiful castle in town and an interesting museum. Aside from that, there is nothing. The village really exists only for tourism. I wrote about it on Trip Advisor and called it a Swiss Brigadoon -- it's like time stood still there. You can see how folks lived in the Swiss villages hundreds of years ago -- well, except you won't see any native industries or farming. But the houses and the fountain are still intact.

One note of caution. As I said, Gruyeres exists for tourism. There is no time in the year when there are no tourists there, and in August, yes, Gruyeres is also victim to the hordes and the tour busses and everyone on vacation. It is really elbow-to-elbow. So, be prepared for it, hopefully blend in and laugh it off. It's a tourist show, and you're a tourist, so get in and get your picture of you standing in front of the castle. Some folks say it is good to stay there overnight to see it after most of the tourists leave . . . but I'm not sure why. There isn't much to see there, so after enjoying it crowd-free for an hour, I don't know what else there would be to do.

Oh, and Gruyeres does NOT lie right on the Golden Pass route, but a short detour off of it. You would need to change trains in Montbovon. I think the detour is about 20 minutes, each direction.

In August, also, Montreux can be crammed full of tourists. If you walk to Chillon, you'll see all the tour busses lined up there, parked for the passengers to enjoy the castle. The promenade will be elbow-to-elbow -- but I rather enjoy the show. It's like a parade or a circus there in Montreux. You'll have dowagers wearing good Chanel walking with their great-grandsons who have spikey, blue hair. You'll see backpackers from Australia with blue jeans and big packs next to directors from Hollywood all narrow in all black. You'll see Parisian fashionists tottering by hanging onto their older, fatter, richer dates.

If you want to avoid that crowding, you can find a little more peace in Vevey. Vevey is more residential than resort-y. Though they do get their fair share of tourists and visitors, the folks I've seen have seemed to be long-term visitors: Brits who are there for 4 or 6 months. The atmosphere is less frenetic, and folks seem to have an air of familiarity and at-home-ness in Vevey.

I personally dislike big cities, so I have always avoided Geneva and Lausanne. I did stay in Geneva one time, but it really did nothing for me.

Remember that many of these places are very close by one another, so there is no need to shift bases. You can travel between Wengen and Interlaken in about 30 minutes, and you can travel between Montreux in Lausanne in about 40 minutes. So it's much more convenient to take day-trips out to what you want to see.

You can see Gruyeres either as a day-trip from Montreux or while enroute from Lake Geneva to the Jungfrau area.

I remember your saying you had 4-5 weeks for this trip, and I do hope you can spend about 2 weeks in Switzerland. If that's so, then, yes, you do have time for 3 destinations in the country: Lake Geneva & Jungfrau region & Engadin.

Have fun!

s

Macaroni09

Swandav,

Thank you SO much for this wonderful info. The more I read the more I am falling in love with Switzerland! 2 weeks will not do it justice. Now thinking we will stay in Switzerland 4 weeks, or we will not feel we got to know her. (And DH loves to hike!)

If we arrive Genève early morning, maybe we can see the old town, jet d'eau & Mont Blanc from a boat, then lay down our heads so we can start as early the next day as possible.

You have done me a great favor reminding me of the tourist hoardes. Gruyères is gone, but hope to see Lausanne (007 went there!) Must see vinyards of Levaux, hopefully we'll see Vevey & Chillon with our friends in Montreux. Will need to get this down so we can decide what date to start the Swiss Pass. It looks like it is better to order it from the States.

Fodorites are such special people to give so warmly & generously of their travel expertise!

Looked at a 22" rolling bag today by North Face, called "Rolling Thunder." I think this may be it, what a challenge for 4 weeks' time. But I took a 26" to France last Sept, and told myself "never again!"

Merci, Danke, Grazie, & Ciao bella!!

kja

Wow -- if you can extend your time in Switzerland to 4 weeks, you should be able to see quite a bit! As you know, I spent 30 days there, and even so, I felt like I had to skip a LOT! If you haven't already done so, you might find some very helpful information in the threads I used to plan my time there -- I got a tremendous array of input from some awesome Fodorites, and much of that advice wouldn't have made it into my TR. Here you go:
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...to-25-days.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...etter-plan.cfm

Hope that helps!

kja

A few other thoughts if you are serious about giving 4 weeks to Switzerland:

- consult some really good guidebooks.. Most any guidebook will give you some decent info on some parts of Switzerland; very few do well for the country as a whole. Of the half dozen or so that I used, I found the <i>Michelin Green Guide</i> and <i>Rough Guide</i> most useful; I encourage you to look at some others, too, whether by buying them or going to your local library. IME, the available guidebooks have some things in common, but differ substantially once they step outside the basics.

- give some thought to the balance of your time across Switzerland's delightfully different regions, giving yourself at least enough time in the west, south, east, north, and central regions to give yourselves a perspective on how very different -- and how similar -- these diverse regions can be! You've already nailed the most important aspect (thanks in each regional language), so move forward apace!

I look forward to seeing how your plans shape up!

swandav2000

Hi again,

Having trouble posting, so will try this in two, short posts.

Ok, I admit -- I hate to see Gruyeres gone!! It is an interesting place, and the countryside in the area is just gorgeous.

So.

Just thought I'd post two walks here that may interest you, though they may be shorter than what you'd like (2h30 or 3h). I haven't taken either one myself (may finally get to them on my trip to Montreux this year), but I have biked in the area a bit. Anyway, I thought that you may be able to enjoy the countryside on a walk, then just hit Gruyeres for a drink and/or bite to eat after, then get back to your hotel.

swandav2000

2 walks:

Bulle to Gruyeres or Gruyeres to Bulle, 2h30

http://www.la-gruyere.ch/en/navpage-...FR-332057.html

http://www.wanderland.ch/en/routes/etappe-01348.html