Switzerland in late Jan early Feb?
Nov 27th, 2006, 04:34 AM
#22
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The Jungfrau tours really emphasize the countryside, going to glaciers and the mountain tops.
Really skips Zurich and Geneva.
Main question I have about those tours is the quality of the lodgings they're charging for. Also they all start out of the Zurich Airport train station. It would be nicer if they started out of the other train station listed at the rail websites. I would assume that one is closer to downtown.
Frommers online has 1 and 2 week itineraries but they concentrate mostly on the cities, including Lucern, Lausanne, etc.
Really skips Zurich and Geneva.
Main question I have about those tours is the quality of the lodgings they're charging for. Also they all start out of the Zurich Airport train station. It would be nicer if they started out of the other train station listed at the rail websites. I would assume that one is closer to downtown.
Frommers online has 1 and 2 week itineraries but they concentrate mostly on the cities, including Lucern, Lausanne, etc.
Nov 27th, 2006, 03:10 PM
#23
scrb -
I've looked at the links you posted and there's nothing listed that you can't do on your own.
Switzerland is easy to navigate by train and there's really no reason for a tour, unless you're just more comfortable with one.
PS - I doubt the lakes would be a good option in January/February.
I've looked at the links you posted and there's nothing listed that you can't do on your own.
Switzerland is easy to navigate by train and there's really no reason for a tour, unless you're just more comfortable with one.
PS - I doubt the lakes would be a good option in January/February.
Nov 27th, 2006, 07:11 PM
#24
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Actually, I'm not sure they're guided tours or anything.
I emailed them and it seems to be open-ended at the start and the end. It may be they just give you the train tickets and arrange accommodations for you but you may have some flexibility on which trains you take.
Yeah I will have to check accommodations and price the train tickets to see what kind of premium they're charging for their services.
One thing I wonder is whether lugging a couple of bags, one of them too big to carry on a plane, is easy to do from train to train.
I emailed them and it seems to be open-ended at the start and the end. It may be they just give you the train tickets and arrange accommodations for you but you may have some flexibility on which trains you take.
Yeah I will have to check accommodations and price the train tickets to see what kind of premium they're charging for their services.
One thing I wonder is whether lugging a couple of bags, one of them too big to carry on a plane, is easy to do from train to train.
Nov 27th, 2006, 08:49 PM
#25
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I totally agree that you don’t need a tour, and the ones of the website you gave look exhausting, IMO, moving every day. Moveover, an itinerary where you have one set day to do something like the Jungfrau train trip is tricky, because if you get a blizzard on top of the Jungfrau that day (quite possible even if it is clear in the valley) you are going to have to go up anyway and IMO you will be wasting the day on a trip up to see absolutely nothing. (You could of course opt out but then you would have paid quite a bit for that trip you aren’t taking). Same with the Gornegat trip in Zermatt. You need to be flexible with weather in Switzerland, and esp with weather in the mountains.
The Glacier Express is not as good a “scenic train” IMO, as either the Bernina or the Golden Pass.
There are many “lakes” in Switzerland, the lakes I see on the itinerary are Brienz, Thun and Lucerne which are part of the Jungfrau trip. These are fine to drive by or train by in the winter, you won’t be able to take any ferries on them, but as part of a trip out to the Jungfrau region that is fine you will get some good Alp views from the train and the little towns are still charming even in winter, esp Thun. Ferries do run on Lake Lucerne in the winter so you can take trips on that (albeit stay indoors) to get some views. Trips on Lake Brienz and Thun are sublime, IMO, so do come back in the summer sometime for that. The southern lakes in the Tocino, Lugano and Lucarno, are not worth the trip in the winter, IMO.
From the hotels on the list, in Zurich I would pick the Central Plaza (www.central.ch) over the Marriott actually as I think it has a bit more charm and a bit better location, although both are fine; actually neither would be one of my first choices in Zurich, that would be the Kindli (http://www.kindli.ch) or the Zum Storchen (http://www.summithotels.com). The Julen in Zermatt is one of my favourites and would be a recco of mine (go to www.zermatt.ch/julen). The Seiler is an excellent hotel as well, the group runs several other good hotels in Zermatt, esp the Rifflealp 2222m (www.seilerhotels.ch). In Lucerne the Wilden Mann gets good reviews here and the Palace is one of the finest hotels in Switzerland as is the Grand Hotel Victoria Jungfrau in Interlaken (lhw.com for both). The Derby in Grindelwald is a nice hotel I think, esp if you get a newer room with a mountain view (bestwestern.com). The Grand Regina is a little weird I think, the rooms were old and kind of dark, unless they have had a redo in the last few years. Check the websites for prices to compare with the packages. Most room rates include breakfast, but not taxes. The mystery of Swiss Rail passes is something I know very little about as I never had to buy one, but there are people here who coudl give you advice on buying the best one for you.
For trains and luggage, my advice is to pack two smaller bags rather than one large bag. This will make your life much easier getting on and off trains. A bag like a duffle bag which can hold soft foldable clothes and can go over your shoulder leaving hands free for a smaller rolling suitcase is ideal, IMO. Virtually every train in Switzerland will require 1-3 stairs to climb up into it (other than at airports where platforms are level with train entry) and then once inside trains it is quite common to find stairs INSIDE the train, esp on double-decker inner-city trains where stairs can be significant. To have two lighter bags is just much easier. Most airlines allow two checked pieces per person these days (many allow very little in terms of carry on these days anyway).
The Glacier Express is not as good a “scenic train” IMO, as either the Bernina or the Golden Pass.
There are many “lakes” in Switzerland, the lakes I see on the itinerary are Brienz, Thun and Lucerne which are part of the Jungfrau trip. These are fine to drive by or train by in the winter, you won’t be able to take any ferries on them, but as part of a trip out to the Jungfrau region that is fine you will get some good Alp views from the train and the little towns are still charming even in winter, esp Thun. Ferries do run on Lake Lucerne in the winter so you can take trips on that (albeit stay indoors) to get some views. Trips on Lake Brienz and Thun are sublime, IMO, so do come back in the summer sometime for that. The southern lakes in the Tocino, Lugano and Lucarno, are not worth the trip in the winter, IMO.
From the hotels on the list, in Zurich I would pick the Central Plaza (www.central.ch) over the Marriott actually as I think it has a bit more charm and a bit better location, although both are fine; actually neither would be one of my first choices in Zurich, that would be the Kindli (http://www.kindli.ch) or the Zum Storchen (http://www.summithotels.com). The Julen in Zermatt is one of my favourites and would be a recco of mine (go to www.zermatt.ch/julen). The Seiler is an excellent hotel as well, the group runs several other good hotels in Zermatt, esp the Rifflealp 2222m (www.seilerhotels.ch). In Lucerne the Wilden Mann gets good reviews here and the Palace is one of the finest hotels in Switzerland as is the Grand Hotel Victoria Jungfrau in Interlaken (lhw.com for both). The Derby in Grindelwald is a nice hotel I think, esp if you get a newer room with a mountain view (bestwestern.com). The Grand Regina is a little weird I think, the rooms were old and kind of dark, unless they have had a redo in the last few years. Check the websites for prices to compare with the packages. Most room rates include breakfast, but not taxes. The mystery of Swiss Rail passes is something I know very little about as I never had to buy one, but there are people here who coudl give you advice on buying the best one for you.
For trains and luggage, my advice is to pack two smaller bags rather than one large bag. This will make your life much easier getting on and off trains. A bag like a duffle bag which can hold soft foldable clothes and can go over your shoulder leaving hands free for a smaller rolling suitcase is ideal, IMO. Virtually every train in Switzerland will require 1-3 stairs to climb up into it (other than at airports where platforms are level with train entry) and then once inside trains it is quite common to find stairs INSIDE the train, esp on double-decker inner-city trains where stairs can be significant. To have two lighter bags is just much easier. Most airlines allow two checked pieces per person these days (many allow very little in terms of carry on these days anyway).
Nov 27th, 2006, 09:17 PM
#26
scrb -
You'd do well to heed Cicerone's advice regarding luggage. Luggage storage on Swiss trains isn't usually a problem, but some small train stations only have stairs which can be a real pain if you're dragging luggage.
Luggage lockers can be found in most Swiss train stations, so you might want to leave your bags while you're out exploring, especially if you're in a given area for a short time.
You'd do well to heed Cicerone's advice regarding luggage. Luggage storage on Swiss trains isn't usually a problem, but some small train stations only have stairs which can be a real pain if you're dragging luggage.
Luggage lockers can be found in most Swiss train stations, so you might want to leave your bags while you're out exploring, especially if you're in a given area for a short time.
Nov 28th, 2006, 03:52 AM
#27
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OK, I looked around rail.ch a bit and looks like there are a lot of trains for the Zurich-Interlaken, Interlaken-Zermatt and Zermatt-Geneva routes.
Can you reserve seats on these trains? I heard some trains in Europe can't be reserved.
Just looking at those, those would be 3 fares I would have to contend with. So I don't see any advantage in any kind of a pass, unless a pass would cover whatever trains you need in Interlaken and Zermatt to climb up to the sights?
As for luggage, if I need to carry any kind of big coat and boots, I would need to carry them in a big case when I fly over, no?
I'm hoping I would time the trains to check in first at accommodations before going to see the sights. Or at least leave my luggage at the hotel when I first arrive in Interlaken and Zermatt.
But yeah, I guess I have to find out about what kind of transfers I would need between train stations and accommodations, accommodations and the sights, in each location.
That might be the only draw of the tour, especially to put everything together in a relatively short time I have left before leaving for this trip.
Can you reserve seats on these trains? I heard some trains in Europe can't be reserved.
Just looking at those, those would be 3 fares I would have to contend with. So I don't see any advantage in any kind of a pass, unless a pass would cover whatever trains you need in Interlaken and Zermatt to climb up to the sights?
As for luggage, if I need to carry any kind of big coat and boots, I would need to carry them in a big case when I fly over, no?
I'm hoping I would time the trains to check in first at accommodations before going to see the sights. Or at least leave my luggage at the hotel when I first arrive in Interlaken and Zermatt.
But yeah, I guess I have to find out about what kind of transfers I would need between train stations and accommodations, accommodations and the sights, in each location.
That might be the only draw of the tour, especially to put everything together in a relatively short time I have left before leaving for this trip.
Nov 28th, 2006, 04:28 AM
#28
1) You do not need to reserve seats for the train.
2) When you are in Interlaken, you most probably will want to go to Grindelwald, Jungfraujoch or Schilthorn. You will need to use the train and cable cars for this. These are quite expensive if you are not using one of the many Swiss passes.
3) You can leave your luggage at most train stations if needed. As for a coat and boots, you'll find they don't take THAT much space.
Happy planning!
2) When you are in Interlaken, you most probably will want to go to Grindelwald, Jungfraujoch or Schilthorn. You will need to use the train and cable cars for this. These are quite expensive if you are not using one of the many Swiss passes.
3) You can leave your luggage at most train stations if needed. As for a coat and boots, you'll find they don't take THAT much space.
Happy planning!
Nov 28th, 2006, 08:21 AM
#29
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OK, so a 4-day Swiss Pass would be $278 or $185, first or second class:
http://www.raileurope.com/us/rail/passes/swiss_pass.htm
A 5-day Flexi Pass would be $372 or $248? Quite a jump for one more day use and I'm not even sure both passes cover all the same transportation options.
http://www.raileurope.com/us/rail/pa..._flexipass.htm
1) Is there a better source than raileurope.com for Americans to pre-buy a Swiss Pass? Do they have will-call option for pickup?
2) Which trains, funiculars, trams in the mountains are not covered by either pass?
3) Are city transit trains covered by either pass in Zurich or Geneva?
4) OK, living in Northern California here and the only winter wear is ski apparel and things like apres-ski boots. Anyone know of any better options? I remember there used to be Gore-tex lined boots with something like Vibrom soles.
http://www.raileurope.com/us/rail/passes/swiss_pass.htm
A 5-day Flexi Pass would be $372 or $248? Quite a jump for one more day use and I'm not even sure both passes cover all the same transportation options.
http://www.raileurope.com/us/rail/pa..._flexipass.htm
1) Is there a better source than raileurope.com for Americans to pre-buy a Swiss Pass? Do they have will-call option for pickup?
2) Which trains, funiculars, trams in the mountains are not covered by either pass?
3) Are city transit trains covered by either pass in Zurich or Geneva?
4) OK, living in Northern California here and the only winter wear is ski apparel and things like apres-ski boots. Anyone know of any better options? I remember there used to be Gore-tex lined boots with something like Vibrom soles.
Nov 28th, 2006, 03:45 PM
#30
I always use www.railpass.com to order my Swiss Passes. Their service is incredibly fast. I once ordered online on a Friday and had the pass in my hands in Kuwait by Monday. They're currently offering free shipping within the US.
I've never found the need to purchase 1st class - 2nd class works fine for me and is less expensive.
When you purchase a Swiss Pass, you'll receive detailed information about what's covered (it covers A LOT) but to give you an idea check out the above site.
Note that the discount for mountain top excursions is now 50%, not 25%.
According to the above site, the only difference between the Swiss Pass and the Swiss Flexipass is that the Swiss Pass is for continuous days of unlimited travel and the Flexipass gives you 3 days of unlimited travel in a 1 month period, with the option of purchasing additional days.
I doubt the Flexipass would do you much good since you're only going to be in Switzerland for six days.
Regarding your question about which funiculars and cable cars are NOT covered by either pass: None that I'm aware of. When you show your pass, you're given a discount of 50% on mountain cable cars and funiculars.
These include but are not limited to:
Jungfrau railway (Swiss Pass is good as far as Wengen, then you're given 50% discount from Wengen to the Jungfrau), Titlis (Engleberg), Schilthorn (Murren), Mannlichen (Wengen), Gornergrat (Zermatt), Kleine Matterhorn (Zermatt), etc.
I've never found the need to purchase 1st class - 2nd class works fine for me and is less expensive.
When you purchase a Swiss Pass, you'll receive detailed information about what's covered (it covers A LOT) but to give you an idea check out the above site.
Note that the discount for mountain top excursions is now 50%, not 25%.
According to the above site, the only difference between the Swiss Pass and the Swiss Flexipass is that the Swiss Pass is for continuous days of unlimited travel and the Flexipass gives you 3 days of unlimited travel in a 1 month period, with the option of purchasing additional days.
I doubt the Flexipass would do you much good since you're only going to be in Switzerland for six days.
Regarding your question about which funiculars and cable cars are NOT covered by either pass: None that I'm aware of. When you show your pass, you're given a discount of 50% on mountain cable cars and funiculars.
These include but are not limited to:
Jungfrau railway (Swiss Pass is good as far as Wengen, then you're given 50% discount from Wengen to the Jungfrau), Titlis (Engleberg), Schilthorn (Murren), Mannlichen (Wengen), Gornergrat (Zermatt), Kleine Matterhorn (Zermatt), etc.
Nov 29th, 2006, 02:09 PM
#31
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OK, I will look into ordering from railpass.com. Prices appear to be the ame though and I don't see anything about free shipping to the US.
Only way tour will be nicer is if there are transfers between the various train systems and stations and hotels. Otherwise, there's dealing with dragging the luggage around, especially in inclement weather.
Anyone know if the Swiss Pass includes city transportation in Zurich and Geneva? Oh and too bad you can't add a day or two to the 4-day pass. I guess if I want an extra day of travel, I can buy a ticket a la carte.
Now to look at hotels and lay out a day by day itinerary. Actually have to look at it in terms of hour by hour, to see which trains to pick up. Or which ones to reserve if reservations are possible.
Only way tour will be nicer is if there are transfers between the various train systems and stations and hotels. Otherwise, there's dealing with dragging the luggage around, especially in inclement weather.
Anyone know if the Swiss Pass includes city transportation in Zurich and Geneva? Oh and too bad you can't add a day or two to the 4-day pass. I guess if I want an extra day of travel, I can buy a ticket a la carte.
Now to look at hotels and lay out a day by day itinerary. Actually have to look at it in terms of hour by hour, to see which trains to pick up. Or which ones to reserve if reservations are possible.
Nov 29th, 2006, 02:21 PM
#32
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Hmm, railpass.com has shipping at a minimum $14. Maybe I will check the shipping at raileurope.com.
OK, so the Swiss Pass lets me board any train whose schedule I find on rail.ch? Including the Golden Pass panoramic trains?
What do they do, write the date on the pass the first day you use it?
OK, so the Swiss Pass lets me board any train whose schedule I find on rail.ch? Including the Golden Pass panoramic trains?
What do they do, write the date on the pass the first day you use it?
Nov 29th, 2006, 02:25 PM
#33
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What do you guys think of the itineraries on :
http://fodors.com/miniguides/mgresul...;feature=30002
Specifically, are the lake trips available in the winter? Probably would do the 3-day before moving on to Zermatt or Zurich.
http://fodors.com/miniguides/mgresul...;feature=30002
Specifically, are the lake trips available in the winter? Probably would do the 3-day before moving on to Zermatt or Zurich.
Nov 29th, 2006, 02:31 PM
#34
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Also, anyone familiar with the Berner Oberland transporation pass described here?
http://frommers.com/destinations/ber...576010029.html
Would those be the various trains, gondolas, etc. for which the Swiss Pass gets you the 25% discount?
Is there a web site showing the individual fares for these trains, trams, etc.?
http://frommers.com/destinations/ber...576010029.html
Would those be the various trains, gondolas, etc. for which the Swiss Pass gets you the 25% discount?
Is there a web site showing the individual fares for these trains, trams, etc.?
Nov 29th, 2006, 04:49 PM
#35
Looks like the free shipping on Railpass.com is only good on orders of $349 or more. Not as enticing a deal as it used to be.
The reduction with the Swiss Pass for mountain excursions is 50%, not 25% (new in 2006). Check out this site for details - the Railpass site isn't current:
http://www.accessworldwide.com/eurai...onal_swiss.htm
Yes, the Swiss Pass covers public train transport within the cities -
"Unlimited travel on the national network of more than 20,000 kilometers of train, bus and boat routes
Valid on the public transportation systems of 35 Swiss Cities"
If you purchase a Swiss Pass, you need to validate it before you begin your first journey. Just take it to a ticket counter in the train station and tell the attendant you need to validate it. He/she will do the rest.
We're having similar problems with the 8 day Swiss Pass, as we really need 9 days. In the past we've just bought the next stage of pass, but since it's only one day this time, we're looking into point-to-point tickets for either the first or last day.
The reduction with the Swiss Pass for mountain excursions is 50%, not 25% (new in 2006). Check out this site for details - the Railpass site isn't current:
http://www.accessworldwide.com/eurai...onal_swiss.htm
Yes, the Swiss Pass covers public train transport within the cities -
"Unlimited travel on the national network of more than 20,000 kilometers of train, bus and boat routes
Valid on the public transportation systems of 35 Swiss Cities"
If you purchase a Swiss Pass, you need to validate it before you begin your first journey. Just take it to a ticket counter in the train station and tell the attendant you need to validate it. He/she will do the rest.
We're having similar problems with the 8 day Swiss Pass, as we really need 9 days. In the past we've just bought the next stage of pass, but since it's only one day this time, we're looking into point-to-point tickets for either the first or last day.
Nov 30th, 2006, 06:54 PM
#37
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I was leafing through some guide books and one of them said the train from Interlaken to Wengen or Grindlewald was standing-room only?
So would it make more sense to stay in Interlaken, leave luggage there and take the trains up?
How long is the trip to Wengen or Grindlewald and then from that point on to Jungfraujoch and other points above those villages?
So would it make more sense to stay in Interlaken, leave luggage there and take the trains up?
How long is the trip to Wengen or Grindlewald and then from that point on to Jungfraujoch and other points above those villages?
Nov 30th, 2006, 09:25 PM
#38
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Don’t know where you would have read that there are no seats on the trains to Grindelwald or Wengen. They are regular passenger trains with luggage racks and seats and everything. The trains from Wengen to the top of the Jungfrau also have seats, again these are regular train cars. Perhaps you read a reference to CABLE CARS from Wengen or Grindlewald to higher elevations; cable cars generally don’t have seats.
For train journey times to Wengen, Grindelwald or other points from Interlaken and elsewhere, go to rail.ch. There are not any villages above Wengen and not really any above Grindelwald, there are some stops along the Jungfraubahn, but these are not villages, just restaurants and stops to get on or off to take walks or to ski from.
For train journey times to Wengen, Grindelwald or other points from Interlaken and elsewhere, go to rail.ch. There are not any villages above Wengen and not really any above Grindelwald, there are some stops along the Jungfraubahn, but these are not villages, just restaurants and stops to get on or off to take walks or to ski from.
Dec 1st, 2006, 04:51 AM
#39
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Tour book said Swiss Pass is good for trips up to Wengen from Interlaken (but not Grindlewald?). So for that reason, those trains were crowded, not that there weren't seats.
The tour operator said it's impossible to get just two-night accommodations in Grindlewald or Zermatt.
That is why I wonder if you can do Grindlewald, Wengen and Jongfraujoch as day trips while staying in Interlaken.
Zermatt, if there are no accommodations nearby, I may have to skip since I didn't have enough lead time to plan this trip this time around.
The tour operator said it's impossible to get just two-night accommodations in Grindlewald or Zermatt.
That is why I wonder if you can do Grindlewald, Wengen and Jongfraujoch as day trips while staying in Interlaken.
Zermatt, if there are no accommodations nearby, I may have to skip since I didn't have enough lead time to plan this trip this time around.
Dec 1st, 2006, 06:54 AM
#40
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Hi again scrb,
The Passes that are good up to Wengen will also be good up to Grindelwald. Perhaps the book didn't mention Grindelwald because cars are allowed there, and for that reason the trains may be less crowded.
The tour operator is not telling you the truth. I just did a search for two nights in January and got more than 30 hits in hotels ranging from 4-star to 2-star. I searched at www.wengen.ch (click on "E" for English pages, then accommodation, then input your dates and the number of nights). The site searches for hotels in all the villages -- or you can narrow the search by village.
Yes, you can do the villages and the Jungfraujoch from Interlaken, but you will be depriving yourself of a great delight that is part of a Swiss trip -- waking up in an Alpine village.
You got the site for rail schedules above, but I'll post it again -- www.rail.ch (for English pages).
Good luck!
s
The Passes that are good up to Wengen will also be good up to Grindelwald. Perhaps the book didn't mention Grindelwald because cars are allowed there, and for that reason the trains may be less crowded.
The tour operator is not telling you the truth. I just did a search for two nights in January and got more than 30 hits in hotels ranging from 4-star to 2-star. I searched at www.wengen.ch (click on "E" for English pages, then accommodation, then input your dates and the number of nights). The site searches for hotels in all the villages -- or you can narrow the search by village.
Yes, you can do the villages and the Jungfraujoch from Interlaken, but you will be depriving yourself of a great delight that is part of a Swiss trip -- waking up in an Alpine village.
You got the site for rail schedules above, but I'll post it again -- www.rail.ch (for English pages).
Good luck!
s
