vinolover

I know there have been a million postings on this topic but after tons of research I'm still confused. Any info from you experts would be helpful. Here's the itinerary for our two week September trip, (FYI we are not renting a car):

Arrive Zurich, one night there.
Travel to Muerren, seven nights there.
Travel to Lugano, two nights there.
Travel to Luzern, two nights there.
Depart Zurich airport (coming from Luzern) mid morning.

While in Muerren we plan to spend much of our time on foot, hiking the paths between the towns. We hope to have good weather to go to the Jungfraujoch and the Schilthorn (I know these are not covered by any of the passes). Also plan to visit Lauterbrunnen to see the waterfalls.

From my research it seems that there are plenty of beautiful hikes around Muerren, Wengen, Kleine Scheidegg, taking trams and cable cars to these areas. Would we be missing out if we concentrated our time there rather than heading over to the Grindlewald area?

We would also like to take a boat cruise, either in Lugano or Luzern. Since we will have been in the Alps for a week we will not take a mountain excursion while in Luzern.

I have plugged all of this into the Railsaver.com and the recommendation was for buying 4 day Swiss flexi passes and paying for individual tickets for the rest of our trips. The Swiss pass gives us a discount (25% I think) on the Jungfrau and Schilthorn tickets.

But, I can't tell if Railsaver is taking into account the other passes offer such as the B.O. pass or the Jungfrau Railways pass. Would either of these be a better option or perhaps a good supplement to the Swiss pass? Or should we just buy a Half Fare Card?

Since all other these passes are expensive saving money is important to us but also less hassle with standing in lines to buy tickets is a concern.

Thanks in advance!

yk

I don't think the Swiss Pass is a good option for you. I think probably the half fare card is your best bet. Or the BO pass & then pay the rest out of pocket?

I'm sure the Swiss experts here can help you out.

vinolover

With a Half Fare Card do you get all the B.O. mountain tickets (i.e. Interlaken to Muerren or Muerren to Grindelwald) for half price also?

vinolover

I should have specified in my first post that we are two adults, no kids. That would qualify us for the Saver version of the pass.

bob_brown

I think the Swiss Card is the way to go in your case. Why? Several reasons

First, you get the ride from Zurich to your first overnight destination as part of the cost of the card; and you get a ride back to Zurich, or to your exit point from Switzerland, also as part of the cost of the card.

Second, you get 50% off just about everything else. There are few private cable cars that only give you 25%. But, the big rides in terms of cost like the Jungfraujoch and the Schilthorn are half off all day every day.

Some of your statements are not fully correct. You say that the Jungfraujoch trip is not covered by the passes. Yes it is. I paid half fare with the Swiss Card last summer.

You would miss out if you do not go to Grindelwald and take some of the excursions from there. The best hike in the area in my opinion is the walk from the First gondola station to the top of the Faulhorn. From there you can see it all just about. I prefer it to the Schilthorn, but I will admit readily that above the Bachalpsee it is a stiff uphill walk. If you have not been doing your leg raises to strengthen your calf muscles, then you better not go.

To reach the trailhead, you take the gondola from Grindelwald to First. The gondola ride itself is an eyepopping ascent in 3 stages. I have done it several times and plan on doing it again in about 5 weeks!

Also the hike to Stieregg from Pfingstegg, which is a cable car stop on the line that originates near the church in Grindelwald, is a walk into another world -- the world of perpetual ice. It is indeed spectacular, and I think it is also revealing to see that the Eiger, despite that imposing north face, has a jumble of other peaks and glaciers behind it.

You will have to take my word on the figures because I have posted precise figures on this subject before so many times that I have lost interest in redoing them. They fall to the bottom, disappear, and hence have no lasting value. After spending a couple of hours drawing out the comparisons in detail and seeing them disappear in a few hours, I refuse to fiddle with the numbers anymore.

Exact prices have changed, but the relative proportions of the numbers have not. The breakeven point, if you are riding the rails and taking cable lifts for an extended period of time, is usually reached more quickly with the Swiss Card, mainly because of the free trip from Zuerich to your first night's destination and the return, or exit trip.

There is really no way to tell which pass will be best without doing a detailed comparison and calculating the breakeven cost. But this means predicting your whole trip in advance.

But your case is very similar to mine this year, and I know I have already done: I ordered my Swiss Cards from the Swiss Federal Railway, and the cards are here, ready to go with me when I leave in a few more days.

bob_brown

Here are some of my old figures. New costs are available on the web if you care to look them up. The SBB web site will give you updated prices on all TRAIN rides in Switzerland. This site will give you current information on cable rides and train rides in the Jungfrau region.

http://www.regiopass-berneroberland.ch/engl/ticket.html

http://www.jungfraubahn.ch/english/pages/SE/SE_KrTe.htm

You can estimate where you are going, look up the exact costs, and decided where you reach your own breakeven point. Without firm figures any conclusions about a pass saving you money is nothing but guesswork.

ORIGINAL FROM LAST YEAR 2003 IN FEB.

Author: bob_brown ([email protected])
Date: 02/27/2003, 06:19 pm
Message: Earlier I posted some cost comparison figures using the Swiss Card and the Berner Oberland Regional Pass, all travel 2nd class. As the result of some comments about my figures, I though I would include the Swiss Pass, 4 day variety.

The results below are based on traveling round trip from the Zurich Airport to Lauterbrunnen, and taking 4 popular rides from Lauterbrunnen. They show that the Swiss Card is the best bet, followed by the Berner Oberland 7 day pass, and finally by the Swiss Pass 4 day variety for 2 adults together.

Any analysis of this type must make some assumptions, and any set of calculations can be changed significantly by changing the fundamental assumptions.

Let's look at some comparative figures betwen the cost of four popular rides in the Berner Oberland with the Swiss Pass, no pass, and the Swiss Card.

SWISS PASS
204 chf = cost of the Swiss Pass for 4 days, 2 adults buying together

COST OF MOUNTAIN RIDES IN THE BOR NO PASS
61.40 Schnyige Platte from Lauterbrunnen
157.00 Jungfraujoch from Lauterbrunnen
90.20 Schilthorn from Lauterbrunnen
48.00 grindelwald first

356.60 sub total for 4 popular BOB trips
116.00 round trip Zurich airport to Interlaken Ost.
13.20 round trip Interlaken Ost to Lauterbrunnen
485.80 total of all trips

COST WITH THE PASS
The pass saves you 25% on the four rides listed that have a subtotal 356.60 per person. It removes the train travel costs between the airport and Lauterbrunnen.

204.00 cost of the pass for 1 adult
267.45 cost of the 4 rides less 25%
471.45 total

Difference: 485.80 - 471.45 =
14.45 savings with the SWISS PASS relative to no pass.

COSTS WITH SWISS CARD
The same set of rides with the Swiss Card costs a total of 354.30 chf.
(50% 0f 356.60 + 176 for the cost of the card)


SWISS PASS SWISS CARD COMPARISON

The difference is 471.45 - 354.30 = 117.15 chf in favor of the Swiss Card.

While I am at it, lets do a quick set of cost figures on the Berner Oberland Regional Pass. It gets more complicated because the regional pass gives 50% off of the train fare between Lauterbrunnen and Bern, which is assumed to take place within the 7 day time window provided by the pass. All riding within the Berner Oberland is assumed to take place on a free pass day. Hang on, the detail gets to be a walloper.

COSTS WITH THE BERNER OBERLAND REGIONAL PASS
87.00 Zurich - Bern round trip 2nd class
30.60 Bern - L'brunnen round trip discounted
195.00 7 day, 2nd class BOB regional pass
61.00 Kleine Scheidegg - Jungfraujoch @ 50% off (this leg never free of cost)
0.00 L'brunnen - Schynige Platte
0.00 L'brunnen - First
37.60 Mürren - Schilthorn also at 50% off
411.20 total cost

CONCLUSIONS

354.30 Swiss Card
411.20 Berner Oberland Regional Pass
471.45 Swiss Pass, 4 day.

The Regional Pass is cheaper by 58.25 chf than the Swiss Pass. Here is what I thing is the hooker: For the Regional Pass to break even with the Swiss Card, the Swiss Card holder could find 114 chf more of rides even on the free days and still come out ahead. The pass holder could ride to Grindelwald via Kleine Scheidegg and return and still be ahead!!

For the Berner Oberland, the other two passes strike me as being bum buys.

The Swiss Pass does, however, introduce the variable of unlimited train travel on SBB trains for all 4 days. But, it is unlikely that extensive riding outside the region could be done and still take the 4 rides listed here. If you are riding elsewhere in Switzerland, you will not be in the Berner Oberland to take the rides listed. Of course it is possible to make an assumption that all mountain rides will be taken by someone commuting in from Basel each day.

vinolover

Thanks Bob, I'm crunching the numbers. From what I can tell the Swiss card may not be the best option because my first night will be in Zuerich which is only a ten minute inexpensive ride. And, my last day exiting the country will be from Luzern to the Zuerich airport, also a rather short inexpensive ride.

I'm now leaning towards the Half Fare Card rather than any passes. The cost for the Half Fare Card is 99 CHF (about $80) versus 170 CHF (about $135) for the Swiss Card and if my calculations are correct my entry point ride (from the airport to downtown) and my exit point ride (Luzern to airport) at half price would be less than the difference between the two cards.

And, again if I understand correctly, the two cards both have the same advantages otherwise on reduced ticket prices for both the regular SBB trains and the BO system.

I was incorrect in stating that none of the passes covered the Jungfraujoch and the Schilthorn, I meant to say that I understood that those excursions are not free if you buy a pass. I'm now leaning towards the Half Card versus any Pass since the reduction is 50% rather than just 25%. Since we have an entire week I would like to see both (IF the weather permits).

Thanks for the advice on hikes in the Grindelwald area. I will print your routes and keep it with my travel info. I have also ordered the Kev Reynolds book from my library to read about other hiking ideas. I intend to do a search on this site about hiking ideas as I know you and others have posted favorite routes.

Any other ideas are much welcome! Thanks for all the info! Please let me know if my assessment of these passes is off. You say you purchased your pass in advance from the SBB site, is that because of crowds at the airport SBB ticket counter?

Ingo

Yes, the Half Fare Card is your best option. But if you are staying a week in Muerren and use the cable cars and cog-railways extensively we should calculate if you should purchase the Jungfraubahnenpass in addition. Two years ago we had this case on this forum and it was indeed the best option.

For that calculation we need your planned hikes and trips to know more exactly.

I.

bob_brown

For Vinolover. The Swiss Card is self initiated. There is a place where you write in the date; at least there is on mine. For your trip from the airport, just buy a ticket and show it to the conductor. Then the next day, initiate it by writing in the date. The conductor will check the passport number on the card against your passport to make sure it is you.

The procedure might be a little tricker if you buy the card in Zürich at the airport rail station -- that is, the seller might write all the data in for you. (In Switzerland, the Swiss Card can only be bought at border and airport train stations.)

As I explained earlier, I ordered mine online and it was here in about 4 days.
Shipping costs were no more than Rail Europe's charges.

I knew I could buy mine in Zürich, but I ordered other tickets too. It was a personal preference to have my card in hand before leaving. For example, last year we came in from Munich and I had all I needed before I got on the train.
I could not have purchased the card at the border because the train did not stop long enough.

If you try to figure if the Berner Oberland Regional Pass is your best buy, remember one key fact: the last leg of the Jungfraujoch trip is NEVER free. You pay half even with the Regional Pass. The same is true of the Schilthorn trip. The stage from Mürren to the top is at best 50% off regardless of the pass you hold.
Those are also the two most expensive trips in the region.
For example, Kleine Scheidegg to the Joch is 102 CHF return. You get it for half of that. Mürren - Schilthorn is 63.80, return. Again, you pay half with the SWiss Card or the Regional Pass.

If you have the Swiss Card, and then buy the Regional Pass, the two passes alone will cost you 176 chf. The Card is 170 chf. That means you must amortize 346 chf in ticket costs to break even. You can save save 117.80 of that on the Jungfrau trip. Chewing up the other 228.20 will just about require the Schilthorn and First plus some others just to breakeven.

Just remember one thing, the best laid plans of Swiss visitors tend to get sabotaged by the weather!!

I will leave you to your calculations. But on the Regional Pass, don't forget you get a discount as far as Bern.

bob_brown

OOPS I meant to say that buying both the Swiss Card and the Regional Pass will cost you 346 chf. I got too wrapped up in looking at cost figures and mangled the syntax. A common failing of mine.

One guy I know wanted to know why the trip would not be free. the Card saved him half and the Regional Pass saved him the other half. So the net should be 0.

He is also the same guy who was in my bowling league and said he figured he had a 50% chance to make a split.
Either he got it or he didn't.
50 - 50

The winner though is a guy I worked with who was a programmer of sorts.
My office mate, a statistician by training, asked him to get him some figures off of a file of data.
The programmer came back the next day and said: "The average value is x."
(X was some number I don't recall.) My friend asked, "What was the N?" (That is how many items in the mean.) The programmer said 3. My office mate about fell off his chair. Then the programmer added gratuitiously, "A mean based on 3 is much more reliable than one based on 2."

So happy figuring. Aren't spreadsheets grand? (I presume you are using one.)

vinolover

Yes, I did make a spread sheet but that was when I was comparing costs between the Flexi-Pass and the BO Region Pass and the Jungfrau Pass. When I did that the B.O. pass option was the most costly. Now I need to refigure based on the Swiss Card and the Half Fare Card.

Let me make sure I understand correctly. If I buy the Swiss Card I CAN initiate it on the second day of my trip from the Zuerich HB to Muerren and get that leg of the trip at no cost?

I'm trying to think about what Ingo said about our itinerary once we get to Muerren, what hikes, day trips, etc. As Bob pointed out I know that will really depend on weather. Hopefully it will be something like this for our days in that region: 1) Jungfraujoch 2) Lauterbrunnen, hiking to see the falls 3) Schilthorn, ride up, hike down. 4) Trails around Grindelwald (thanks Bob), 5) Trails in the Kleine Scheidegg, Wengen, Mannlichen area 6) Trails in the Muerren - Allmenhubel area.

Bob, I LIKE your friends thinking! But does he pick up the split?? Better just call a beer frame and forget it!

bob_brown

Quick answer for Vinolover. On the Swiss Card, the first date of validity is filled in by the user.
So I think YES is the answer to your question

Now for some details.

Right now I an looking at my recently arrived Swiss Card, almost fresh out of the envelope. It has the usual office information like date of sale, article number, cost, etc. Then for the conductor, my full name, homeland, and passport number are printed on the card.

The part you are interested in is the validity dates. On my card, that space is blank. I will fill in the date of first use with a ballpoint pen right after I get on the train in Zürich.

If I don't show my Card, no one knows I have it.

What I do not know is whether or not the card will be sold to you at the rail station in the same condition and form as mine -- that is with an empty date of validity.

Anyone who has bought a Swiss Pass or a Swiss Card in Switzerland should be able to answer the question for us.

One reason I think you will have empty validity dates, ones that you fill in, is that I told the Swiss Rail Office my expected dates of use when I ordered, but that information was not entered on the card although my name and passport number are printed.

swandav2000

Hi All,

bob_brown, are you **sure** the pass is self-initiated? I believe you have to go to the ticket window, present your passport and the pass, and have the pass validated -- as with any other pass. It is the ticket agent who fills in the date.

But even if it is the user who fills in the day, I'm not comfortable with the ethics of this plan. The pass is designed to go from "border or airport to your destination and back," so to me using it either on day two or to return for a few days in Zurich is like lying. I often return to Zurich after my holiday to visit a family friend for a few days, and have never used the Swiss Card for this because it would be a lie -- though I really really really really (really) would like to.

So, vinolover, consider carefully.

s

PalQ

It all seems confusing but what isn't confusing to me is that a Swiss Card bought in the U.S. costs $124 (2nd class) vs CH176 (Bob's figure), which if you divide by 1.25 CH=$1) would be $140 if bought in Switzerland for the exact same card. Similarly Swiss Passes are now cheaper if bought in the U.S. than in Swiss, largely due to the falling dollar which has made things more expensive in Switzerland. The half-fare card cannot be bought here. So even with RailEurope's $15 mailing fee, it would be $1 cheaper. Better yet if you buy from my source, Budget Europe (800-441-9413), who works through RailEurope, you'll pay no mailing fee, making a $16 saving. Traditionally Swiss passes, cards, transfer ticket, etc. have been cheaper in Switzerland but not currently. If this is not so, Bob, please correct me. The sheer amount of detail you provide in this matter is mind-boggling and very appreciative and I share you exhiliration for travel and hiking in the Grindelwald area. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Ingo

I must agree with swandav. And besides ethic problems, the Swiss Card saves you only 39,20 Sfr. from Zurich to Mürren and 12 Sfr. from Luzern to Zurich Airport. That is still 155 Sfr. (if purchased like PalQ suggested) minus 51,20 Sfr. = 103,80 Sfr. which is 4,80 Sfr. more than the Half Fare Card costs.

So the Half Fare Card is your best choice and you won't have ethic problems.

I also calculated your planned hikes and trips - the Jungfraubahnen Pass would save you 121,80 Sfr. (if you purchase it on your journey from Zurich to Mürren in Interlaken Ost and use it for the rest of the ride to Mürren as first day) but costs 140 Sfr. Bad deal.

I calculated that on day 4) you possibly take the gondola up and down to/from First from Grindelwald and hike to Faulhorn or so. And on day 5 I thought you may go up via Wengen to Männlichen, hike from there via Kleine Scheidegg to Alpiglen and take the railway back via Grindelwald from there to Mürren.

I did not include any railway costs for day 3 - hiking around Lauterbrunnen to see the falls - but think you should take the funicular/tram from Lauterbrunnen up to Mürren at last. So the Jungfraubahnenpass would save you another 4,90 Sfr. (which is still not enough to reach the break-even point).

Anyway, I think although you are planning to do a lot of train/gondola rides in the area, you could make more of the passes. If I were you I would probably save the falls for the last day (when the JB pass is not valid anymore) and do on day 3 a ride up from Wilderswil to Schynige Platte e.g. - that would justify to purchase the JB pass. BTW, if you hike down from Schilthorn you will use the trails in the Mürren/Allmendhubel area.

All the hikes and trips depend on weather, of course. So make the decision after landing in Switzerland.

Ingo

bob_brown

First, what is the ethics problem?
The regulations printed on the Synoptic Map that comes with the ticket state the following:

As a holder of the Swiss Card, please note:
The Swiss card is valid for one month starting with the first transfer day.

In German it says
Die Swiss Card ist ab erstern Tranfertag einen Monat gültig.

I don't see that spending the night in a hotel in the city of arrival constitutes a transfer day. I am not going anywhere except to get some sleep.
If the regulations said "first day in Switzerland", I would agree. But to me a transfer day is different.

Also, the back of the Card says this:
Wird ein Fahrausweis vor dem ersten Geltungstag zur Erstattung vorgelegt so ist eine eisenbahseitige bescheinigung über die Nichtbenuzung nich erforderlich.

I do not interpret that statement to mean that the Swiss Card has to be used the moment you enter Switzerland. What if you arrive by car in Basel or Geneva and spend the night. The next day, you go to destination x by train.

Are you saying I am unethical if I use the card after spending the night?

Besides I could arrive in Basel on a French train and spend the night. My Swiss card is not valid on a French train.

Or to pose a counter contradiction.
What if you plane was late arriving in Zürich and the last train to your destination had already gone. You get your luggage at 23:50, leaving 10 minutes in your first day in Switzerland. At midnight, I am into my second day. Are you also saying that it is unethical if I don't use that card within that 10 minute period; that I have forfeited my right to the free trip to my destination?

In theory, the Card should be validated at a station.

But let's consider my situation last year. When I rode the train from Munich to Lauterbrunnen, I had my tickets in advance. There was no chance to initialize the ticket by going to the window at a rail station. I simply wrote in the date when we crossed the border and handed the card to the conductor when he came through after we left Bregenz.

The train stops for all of 7 minutes in St. Margrethen. I don't think I am going to jump off the train, run into the station, wait in line, have my ticket stamped, sprint back to the train, and hope it is not moving when I come dashing out. You might, but I am not, nor did the conductor say anything.

If what I am saying is a violation of somebody's ethics, then my reaction is that of Ms. Heinz-Kerry when she admonished a reporter.

vinolover

Oh my, I didn't mean to start an ethical debate.

I do really appreciate all the advice and the time you guys have taken to analyze my choices. I've done quite a bit of that but having experts looking at it has made me realize some other options. I'm going to crunch the numbers one last time.

And, Bob, I see your point in buying the Card in advance. I have time to order (either the Half Fare or Swiss Card) and have it sent to me.

One more train ticket question. On our travels to several other European countries we often buy our train tickets at an American Express office rather than at the train stations. It seems somewhat easier than standing in line at the stations, the service is usually better, the cost is the same. Can I do that if I'm using a Half Fare Card?

Ingo

I must admit I have not (yet) seen an American Express office at a Swiss railway station. And you will rarely find one in Muerren or one of the other villages in the Bernese Oberland.

I also cannot imagine that the service would be better than at the Swiss railway station. And usually the lines are not long. By the way, there are ticket machines at most railway stations in Switzerland.

Bob, I have never used the Swiss Card, so I don't know what exactly are the restrictions. From what I have read on the SBB website I guess you can use it ONLY from the airport/border to your first destination. But I sent a friend of mine who works for the SBB an email. I'll post after he responded.

swandav2000

Hey all,

bob_brown, I don't intend to be the ethics police here. I just stated my view. As I see it, the traveller needs to go from **border** to destination and back. No, I don't want to legislate morality. Chill.

s

vinolover

Ingo, thanks for going to the trouble for checking with SBB on the Swiss Card details.

I didn't mean that I expect to find an AMEX office at the train station. I meant that we use AMEX travel agency offices in the city. Usually I go ahead and purchase our tickets for our major trip legs (in this case the Zuerich to Muerren leg, Muerren to Lugano and Lugano to Luzern) at one time in at a major city AMEX office. I'm aware that many ticket window workers at train stations speak English but my German is very weak and I hate holding up others in line while I struggle through my questions and purchase my tickets.

Looking forward to hearing what your friend at SBB has to say!