Last year was the first time we opted for 1st class, after advice we saw on this forum. If economy and utilitarian transport is your goal it makes no difference. On the ferry 1st class offered separate boarding and seating in the quieter, more scenic, open top level, well worth it. On shorter rail runs where conductors are spotty a couple times Interlopers who were clearly not holding 1st class tickets had invaded the 1st class carriage. The biggest give-away is the noise. A 2nd class passenger in the 1st class section is usually loud, on speakerphone, dragging a couple infants around, and irritating. One guy came in from 2nd class so he could conduct a business meeting back home in the quiet car so he could hear above the chaos and screaming kids in his car. For a few extra bucks, what the heck.

It seems to me that this statement is an unnecessarily pejorative overgeneralization that captures what the poster noticed and concluded, not fact.

Even if the scenario described above was true, they would be kicked out once the conductors came through checking tickets. I have encountered a similar situation once or twice but only because there were train problems with significant delays and crowds of people waiting so passengers were told to just go into any car where they could find seats. Aggravating but fair enough.

In general there are two annoying types more commonly found in first class: a clump of tourists (usually traveling in groups of four) who don't realize they're in the quiet car and so they talk loudly, use their phones etc. Once told that they're in the quiet car, they lower their voices slightly in accommodation. The second annoying type are the polite, quiet Swiss or German passengers who don't talk much and keep their voices low but have brought along takeaway food inevitably wrapped in reams of cellophane and thick paper that takes them ages to noisily and slowly unravel. And who then repeat the whole endless cycle of crinkle-crinkle-crumple-crumple-crinkle-crinkle-crumple-crumple after eating.

What you notice and actually experience is fact! Frankly I never purchased 1st class until the suggestions on this very forum...and we did find our travels quieter, more spacious, and at our age, worth it. You may disagree. Having spent the money to travel 1st class, yes I do notice and somewhat resent those who did not, but choose to invade my space, or refuse to be courteous and observe the very minimal rules. As to the crinkle-crinkle, you are also treated to the strong aromas emulating from whatever food is being consumed, and one can only hope the consumer has good taste. There have been times I was jealous and wanted to ask for a bite...and times I wanted to flee to the 2nd class car! To each his/her own!

I wasn't clear: I don't question your experience. I question using that experience as a basis to describe ALL 2nd class travelers who enter a 1st class zone. And as WeisserTee has noted, their presence could be for reasons other than an intentional violation of the rules.

☮️

Have no problems generally with second class train seats. Going for first this trip because worried about crowding in peak tourist season. Have never traveled in July before.

NOTE: We have moved the last three posts to a new thread tagged as a Trip Report.

You can find it here https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...eport-1732046/