Stuttgart Rebellion
 

On top live webcam streaming, below from this afternoon. Peaceful demonstrators, children beaten by police. Water cannons and teargas.

http://www.fluegel.tv/

This is not Berlin
To freedom!

logos---what was the point of the demonstration? I saw a few costumes, flags, funny hats, but no banners proclaiming a cause.

Corruption, they government wants to build a new train station underground that noone needs. The Bahn has bought the city park and is cutting down the trees tonight (>200 years old) after they've already torn down parts of the old station. They want to sell the area that once was the train station to real estate investors and the taxpayer has to pay the bill for the new and expnsive underground station.
Those are normal people that have protested over months every day.

Police has used tear gas against school children today and all the interior minister has said is that "parents should be more careful not to let their kids go to demonstrations".
The protests will go on.

Check www.spiegel.de for more details.

The Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof, for years before WWii, had kind of an icinoclastic aura for modern RR station designs in Germany, so much so that the station was the showpiece of stations in the Maerklin model railroad lineup.

The fact that moving part of the station underground requires cutting down 200 trees in the Schlosspark, one of the main parks in Stuttgart, explains the emotions surrounding Stuttgart21

Yeah, I don't get it. I was a kid in Stuttgart in the 60s when dad was in the US military and to me, an impressive old downtown hauptbahnhof is as German a symbol as Octoberfest Steins and wurst with spaetzle. sorry if I'm misspelling.
This construction strikes me as going backwards. I'd protest too, if I were there.

Are there 2 sides to the story--or is everyone who wants the new station satanic and evil and corrupt?

I actually like the Stuttgart 21 plans, the hauptbahnhof now is OK but it is a terminus and it looks very outdated. Knowing how Stuttgart has been trying to become more modern and efficient, I can understand how the new train station would fit the city's philosophy. The new train station will be more efficient and impressive in design. Of course I don't have to pay the local taxes to subsidize the project but in the long run it will help Stuttgart compete better with other major German cities not to mention surrounding European cities. The new station will help Stuttgart become a better international hub as trains will be able to pass through the new hauptbahnhof instead of having to back out of the station. Personally, I'm looking forward to visiting Stuttgart after the new station is done. They already have an impressive convention center and modern museums. I'm sure the Schlosspark will be improved after they are done digging the tunnel under the park.

Perhaps logos can explain what is the 'corruption' allegation is all about. I know the mayor was elected because he mentioned that he would run a citywide referendum if there is a lack of support.
From what I heard, the supporters and the opponents are about equal in numbers and the mayor's
referendum cannot stop the project anyway as it is no longer a city project but a state and federal
project which the city cannot cancel anyway. It's too late, the train has left the station!

The new station will never be finished. This time, they're against ordinary people that are just fed up with them and the way they fill up their pockets at everybodies expense. Elder people, business people, ordinary guys not left wing extremists are against them now.

Most modern German cities have termini, it works.
The costs will never break even.

One older woman died, one person lost an eye.

Logos999: your idea of what "noone needs" still includes air conditioning in Munich in AUGUST, right????

yes, but that has nothing to to with what is happening now.

Cutting down further trees is suspended until Oct.8 The federal office for train traffic has prohibited cutting down the trees yesterday, but the local authorities did not care.

It's arguable if Stuttgart 21 is an improvement or not. Of course, it sounds good at first (and DAX, you probably only heard/read what Deutsche Bahn officials and the Federal Department of Transport promise).

First off, the current station might look outdated, but it is a landmark of Stuttgart, representing a certainy style and era. Nothing wrong about it, and it's worth to be preserved. With some not overly expensive remodeling a major improvement of the building could be done.

It's highly questionable if the Stuttgart21 will have a bigger capacity for trains. There will only be four platforms for the train inside the underground station and I can already imagine the crowds there. A nightmare. Also, the number of railroads going to/from the station will be reduced which will cause traffic jams for the trains. Another problem: There are no separate railroads planned for freight trains along the new high-speed route to Ulm, not even places where the passenger trains can pass the freight trains. This will also reduce the speed of the passenger trains.

Another major concern is of course the cost of the project. Even the officials admit now that the cost will at least double. Other sources estimate the cost will triple or quadruple. As all this money will be taken from Deutsche Bahn and Federal Ministry of Transport funds many other, more urgent project will be delayed or even cancelled. Think of the Rhine route. (And I could tell you about other projects that *are* already cancelled.)

As for Stuttgart's inner city: No, I am not looking forward to an overbuilt green Schlossgarten, then turned into apartment and office blocks.

Yuck.

Well Ingo (Hello!) you certainly opened my eyes to the hidden shortcomings of the project, now I can understand why so many people object. I actually formed my view from watching an "unbiased" feature report on RAI satelite channel. They did mention that the cost would be more than previously estimated, but I didn't hear double or triple ( really?). The green 'tree hugger' party is mad because they withdrew their mayoral candidate when the present mayor mentioned he would run a referendum but now it's irrelevant because it's beyond his power to alter the course of the project. It was presented as a fact based report but I suppose media is never really neutral, especially coming from a Berlusconi controlled media. Anyway I thought it was interesting that they've been doing a weekly Monday night walk to protest ala Leipzig, though I doubt that they start from any church.

As unique as the current Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof may be, I personally don't think it holds a candle to those in Berlin or Dresden, well maybe when compared to Munich Hauptbahnhof, but I leave that for logos' input...(:

Munich Hbf was demolished in the 1950s after it much of it survived the war. The called it "progress" and people had other things in mind during those days. What makes these protests in Stuttgart significant is that ordinary people, voters from all parties are united in their resistance. This hasn't happened during the last 20 years. Those are the folks that usually accept everthing and go to vote every 5 years.
About 100000 people joined the protests yesterday.

And hello back, DAX! "Unbiased" from RAI? LOL, hardly possible, you're right on that one. Really, really, the cost will definitely explode. For one, the plans and estimates of cost were made more than 10 years ago. Everyone knows that prices have gone up in the meantime MUCH. Also, it was uncovered that the cost was calculated on the most positive circumstances, for example not taking notice of the problem of the many water springs in the ground around the Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof. That alone makes the whole project risky.

LOL, the style of the Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof may not be to everyone's liking, but back in the 19th century Baroque architecture was not appreciated by many people either.

Of course the protests are late. The mayor has no saying in the project, can't stop it at all. But these protests will make sure the CDU/FDP coalition in Baden-Württemberg will lose the next elections in March 2011 and thus even have the potential to bring down Merkel.

Yup and Merkel is still standing strong behind the project despite the huge risk of losing her coalition majority in Berlin next year. I imagine because she is trapped in her own coalition with no way out.

It's far more tan just "the train station". Wherever you ask, people are fed up with the way they're governd. Bailouts, higher taxes, arrogant politicians, disrespect for the will of the majority only to give more taxpayer money to their friends.

There is no new party right now, so much shifts to the green party that promised to stop Stuttgart21. The social democrats, after being pressed promised a referendum but they aren't trusted either. The Merkel government has made secret contracts with the electrity companies. The nuclear power plants will stay in service longer than promised with the money going to the companies and the nuclear waste as a burden to the taxpayer. Corruption has never been like that before. Our social welfare programme is named after a guy working for VW that spend the companies money on "leasure trips" with his buddies visiting all the brothels of Brazil.
The Länder banks were operated by a union of the local mafia and politicians. Still, noone goes to jail. Everything is fine, but only for so long.

DAX, just to clarify: Merkel is not in danger of losing her coalition majority in Berlin in March 2011 - the upcoming elections are state elections. But her problem is that her position as head of the CDU party is questioned and if the CDU in Baden-Württemberg loses by a landslide then a rebellion in the CDU German wide will follow. Merkel would have to step down.