C.N.loaf

Yesterday, after my posting inviting bios below, I received an e-mail from a Fodorite asking why I felt standards of service were poor in foreign places. So below are three experiences which I have had in Europe, not all at the same period but pertinent nevertheless. To me they all suggest that workers have it too easy in Europe and so don't respond to '"the customer is king".. <BR> <BR>Case 1 <BR>I was at a railway station in Ireland looking for a porter to carry my bag. I saw one in the distance sitting down at a table. I approached but as I did I noticed that he seemed to be slightly bending over in some mild paid. I asked if he was Ok. He relied that he was fine, but that he needed to go to the bathroom but still had 10 minutes of his lunch break left, and he would go after that time had passed. <BR> <BR>Case 2 <BR>I took a cab in Sicily Italy to go up the mountain roads (which have many bends) towards Agrigento. As soon as we departed he said that his motor horn 'did not work and gestured that it would be desirable in the interests of safety to shout "TOOT TOOT" every time we approached a bend in the event of another automobile approaching the other side. This I promptly did. At the end of the journey I stated that as i had bit of a sore throat and had clearly ridden in an unroadworthy car i suggested that I receive a discount on the fare. He got extremely angry and I still had to pay up the full fare plus "tip". <BR> <BR>Case 3 <BR>I was in a diner in Paris (one of those that said "English spoken").I went in and sat down. I wait. I waited and waited. Still no waiter came. I did finally get one's attention by rigorously clicking my fingers and calling "Garcon" (which is what they call waiters over there). When he arrived I told him "do you know I've been here 15 minutes". He replied that's nothing monsieur, I've been here for three months". I was so upset by this insolence that I left immediately, after having spoken to the manager in strongest terms. Two days later I passed in front of the place and found the same guy still working there. <BR>* <BR>Do the rest of you have any such stories? Why is the "customer king" only in the US?

maricke

God... I truly hope this is a joke post! <BR>Otherwise, please, never ever leave the US again.

Christine

Wow, I really don't know how to respond to this, except maybe that when you travel you need you adjust your expectations a bit. After all you are in a different culture, do not expect everything to be the same (thank heavens they're not). Yes, the pace of life is slower in Europe, and it may take some getting used to. Do you realize how culturally insensitive and ethnocentric you sound? <BR> <BR>I have lived in Europe for nearly 2 years now, and yes I was a bit perturbed at first that restaurant service took what seemed like ages, and shops shut down for 2 or more hours for lunch, but I have now learned to enjoy the differences. But overall, I feel the quality of life here is much better then the U.S. People aren't in such a hurry all the time and fearful of being ripped off (like you seem to be). I'm sure those "workers that have too easy in Europe" feel you were a lazy, demanding, obnoxious, combative American who has it too easy! Perhaps you should just stay home if you can't learn to take off your "combat" attitude before you travel. <BR> <BR>BTW, did you know that using "Garcon" in Paris especially, to call a waiter is no longer appropriate but seen as derogatory? You should have said s'il vous plait. <BR>

cnloaF

Christine. <BR>Thank you very much for enlightening me. But please understand I had no idea about these things. I do note that despite everything you say, you to were perturbed by the service you received and correct me if i am wrong, but it took you two years to get used to this poor standard. That aside I still suspect that this is a common occurrence which is all too easily accepted by Americans and brushed aside as "cultural differences "when in fact its simply that the bosses do not have the power to "kick butts" when needs arise.. <BR>* <BR>I truly had no idea that garcon was derogatory, but as in fact I took the word from a beginners French guide. How could I have know that? Though i do admit the book dates from 1966. <BR>

Santa Chiara

C.N.: Thanks for the break from all the previous kvetching being dislayed in some of the other threads. They made me laugh out loud. And then I realized, I think, that you aren't putting us on. You're serious, right? <BR> <BR>Fifteen whole minutes. My lord, what was the "garcon" thinking? <BR> <BR>Although I have been out of the U.S. for a year, as I recall, the customer stopped being king a long time ago. In department stores, you are lucky if you can get the salesperson's attention, if there is one around, and if she or he isn't talking on the phone on a personal call. And at restaurants, if Tiffany, Todd or Tyler deign to wait on you, between flirting with other wait crews, chewing gum or being obviously bored to tears and feeling put upon about having to be there, then they get your order wrong or forget to bring part of it. <BR> <BR>Yes, the European pace takes some getting used to. But this is their way of life, not yours.

mark

Wow ........ <BR> <BR>I wasn't going to answer this question ... but as everyone seems to be taking this seriously ... here goes. <BR> <BR>1. I'm sorry but I miss the point on this one ... so what if the porter (who most likely wasn't even a porter - cause I suspect most Irish railway stations don't have porters !) was on his lunch break .... is he not allowed one ?? <BR>2. Has it not occurred to you, that he may have been taking the P**S ??? Hmmm ... maybe not. Italians have a very relaxed attitude to driving ... ie ignore red lights etc etc .... <BR>3. Garcon means "boy" or always used to when I was at school .. think about it ... if you did that in an US resturant (clicking fingers, shouting "BOY") what are the chances of you getting served ??? Little I suspect ....... In the UK you are often given plenty of time to read the menu .... I suspect the same can be said of France ... the French are very relaxed when it comes to eating. <BR> <BR>I'm sure that I could quite easily come with examples of bad service that I've had in the USA .... bad service happens everywhere .... <BR> <BR>Mark

Cindy

The customer is king in the U.S.? Where? Please tell me so that I can move there. I seem to find myself in constant dust-ups with the phone company, the auto mechanic, the bank, the plumber, the postal worker, the waiter, and especially department store salespeople. There is a feeling in the U.S. that every customer is a liar, and their word should be questioned at every turn. If you return something, you might get interrogated as to whether you have used it and are now pulling a fast one, and the item will be openly scrutinized to make sure it is in perfect condition. When exchanging items, I have had stores actually try to refund me the sale price and then try to charge me the full price for the same item. If you request a reasonable resolution of a problem, the clerk will insist nothing at all can be done, until you ask for a manager, and then the resolution is quickly reached. If the scanner finds the wrong price, I have to prove I am right, and then they won't fix the mistake for the next person. Too many times I have had people ring me up without saying a single word to me, as they are having a personal chat with someone else on the phone or across the aisle, such that I have to wave my hand to get their attention to fix the scanner error. Best of all was the store that had an employee stationed at the front door as a greeter who didn't know where anything in the store was and made no effort to find out. I won't take issue with the three stories C.N. provides (as others have already done it), but I think it is amusing that someone would find service in the U.S. substantially better than service abroad. <BR>

vosaki

Cultural differences are reflected in standards of service. <BR>For example, Germans feel at liberty to comment and correct the behavior of strangers. For example, we visited Germany when my daughter was very young. On a slightly brisk day, I was carrying my daughters coat. I was approached twice and told to put the coat on the kid. Another time, I shouldn't have been doing it, but I was glancing at a map as I was driving. An irate driver indicated by his gestures that I should be paying attention to the road. <BR>So how does this all translate into service. I was at a United Airlines counter in Germany trying to get boarding passes when the agent gets a phone call and, without a by your leave, talks for what seemed an inordinate time. When she finally got off the phone, she said "You should be more patient". It was just a normal comment as far as she was concerned. <BR>Laws are changing, but until recently stores were required to close at a stated time. Store clerks would observe these laws scrupulously, as Germans obey all laws, and refuse to serve a customer one minute after the designated closing time. Many Americans were appalled by this seeming lack of accomodation, but to the German, this rigidity was required by law.

C.N.loaf

S Chiara <BR>Yes I am serious. Why do you find this so hard to believe? All who have replied so far seem to agree - but tolerate - a slower pace of customer service. <BR> <BR>So how long did it take you to get used to things over there? Did they all speak english were you are? The cab driver in sicily did not, but was very good at waving his hands about. <BR> <BR>Mark- <BR>Irish porter - What i meant was he would only go to the bathroom after his lunch break was over - even though he needed to go now. Anyway may be he was not a porter, but as he never did carry my bag (I had to call a cab driver to do it instead) I'll never know. <BR>French waiter. In this guide book that i have, they call waiters "garcon" now how was i supposed to know they don't want to be called garcon any more? Waiters have never been called "boy" in NYC - not even in the past. <BR>

frank

In America people tip 15% & rightly demand a decent level of service for this.In Europe the tip is 0 to 10% depending on the country. <BR>In European bars tipping at all is rare. <BR>That is why Europeans are seen as mean in the US and Americans seen as pushy in Europe. <BR>

paige

I live in Germany and I agree with the guy. Granted, service isn't perfect in the states but it's a lot better than here, although I don't usually have problems in restaurants. My big thing lately is a 7 month battle with Deutsche Telekom. They owe us over 1700dm and continue to charge us for a service we don't have and threaten to cut off our phone if we don't pay. No one in that company talks to anyone else and I think the 'service' department is non-existent. By the way, if you live in DE, don't sign up for ADSL internet service no matter what!!!

herself

C.N. <BR>I also thought you were just joking with your post. You sounded like you were right out of an Ugly American movie. I am now shocked that you are serious. Why do you travel if you can't flow with the tide? You can not make people act and think like you. I'd like to see you get good service in the USA by "clicking your fingers and calling out "Boy". Expecting a porter to carry your bags? Back to the movie scene. You should consider not ever traveling outside the USA. It's bad for your health.

Abby

Dear Loaf, <BR> <BR>Do you believe in democracy or just in being king? Good grief, have you NEVER had a service job yourself, or do you think you were put on this planet to snap your fingers at others? Of course you didn't know "garcon" was offensive -- you really don't care, because you don't think of anyone in a service industry as your equal as a human being. What a display of spoiled-brat arrogance! <BR> <BR>First of all, our attitude toward service jobs in this country has never been as respectful as in Europe, where waiters are not members of a menial class. Americans like you seem to expect a degree of groveling and slave-like behavior that Europeans have learned they can't get away with without risking having the labor pool dry up, as ours has. Your boss-should-kick-butt attitude is an abominable example of the most ugly part of the ugly American and -- I THOUGHT -- was why we severed our relationship with England a few centuries ago. <BR> <BR>Second, if you think the customer is still right in this country, you've had your head in the sand or elsewhere. I've been abused by just about every company I've ever dealt with, putting up with presumptions that if something doesn't work, it's because I broke it; or that if I'd been treated badly, it was just my problem because "no one had ever complained before." And I think I've spent fully a week out of each year dialing through phone-menu hell and another week on hold listening to messages telling me how much the company cares about customer service. <BR> <BR>I've lived in both north and south of the US, and whatever else I might think about each area, going to a restaurant is much more pleasant in the south, not just because the wait-staffs are more cordial but because the customers are pleasant, patient, polite, and respectful to the wait-staff. It's a matter of mutual civility, which doesn't seem to exist with people like you.

Santa Chiara

In answer to your questions. <BR>(a) Your reaction to the examples you gave was so condescending and arrogant that I thought it was a put on. (b) All who have replied do not agree with you. (c) I will probably never get used to things being different over here. That's one of the main reasons I am here. <BR>(d) English is not that widely spoken where I live. Why should it be? I live in Italy, which is populated by Italians who,for the most part, speak Italian. <BR> <BR>In your bio, you describe yourself as upper middle class. Why is that important to you? And what is upper middle class, anyway? Apparently, your exalted status gives you license to snap your fingers at a porter or try to argue a Sicilian cab driver out of a fare. You also say in your bio that you dislike people who know English but still insist speaking in a foreign language. Do you realize what you are saying? The Italian language, to Italians, for example, is NOT a foreign language. How many languages do you speak? Can you reply in their native tongue to every German, French or Italian tourist who visits the U.S.? <BR> <BR>And finally, what in the world do you need a porter for, anyway? I am a single woman in my "low 50s" (as someone else in her bio described it). I have traveled extensively, and I have never used a porter. If I cannot carry my luggage myself, I don't take it. <BR> <BR>

Anon

Let's give C.N. a break. After all, he/she has the guts to chew out Italian cab drivers and French wait staff in English. How bold! I would be slack-jawed if someone came up to me and ripped me a new one in Japanese. What a hoot! Whatever happened to slinking away under the weight of one's feelings of inadequacy that one doesn't know the language of the country one is visiting? As for the French waiter, I would have been dying of laughter at his witty comeback. That was a good one! As for the Italian cab driver, you should have asked for the discount at the first "Toot" you sang out so that he could have left you by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. Much better to accept the service and then quarrel about it afterward. Those Europeans you set straight are probably still telling some hugely funny stories about you to all of their friends. <BR> <BR>C.N., please don't get too pushed out of shape by the bashing you have received and will continue to receive for many, many days or months to come. After all, your "bios" idea was an excellent way to get a sketch of all of the people who are blasting you. Heck, it might even help to quickly admit you were wrong so that people will lay off. Just try to learn something from the reaction, be honest with yourself, and act like a good guest the next time you travel.

cnloaF

REPLIES- <BR>Vosaiki/paige <BR>Thanks for the information and your support!!!That's Germany off my list for any future travel then! <BR> <BR>Dillon/Abby <BR>May be it is an issue of perspectives, but for me travel involves discovering "true culture" and enjoy the idea of e.g. visiting monuments, museums and the occasional palace, walking along the sidewalks, perhaps some shopping etc) It has broadened my mind and perspectives. And I am very please with that side. But I never dreamed when I first booked my ticket to travel several thousand miles that it also involved time lost thru waiting or arguments with cab drivers, arrogant waiters and others. <BR> <BR>Santa Chiara <BR>You admit yourself that you haven't got used to it! So please try to see my difficulties in trying to cope with such treatment during my short stay. <BR>On my bio I purposely put "upper middle class" to distinguish myself from "blue collar worker" who have developed the tendency to call themselves "lower middle class". I simply wanted to point out that I am white collar. Also my point was against was people who can speak English to me as a tourist but prefer to speak their own foreign language. This simply aggravates the issue, especially during an existing argument. Wouldn't you agree? <BR> <BR>

Captain J T Kirk

Do people really snap their fingers to get someone's attention???? <BR>

Sjoerd

Mr. CN: cases 1 + 2: they were making fun of you from the very beginning. Do you really believe an Italian (or most others for that matter) would shout TOOT TOOT all the way up the hill? I am even smiling now that I am typing this. <BR>Case 3: he was making fun of you after your complaint. <BR>Conclusion: Europeans have a great sense of humour! <BR>And Americans also if you are a troll after all!

Anon

C.N., stop, you're killing me! Now you portray yourself as wandering about Europe squabbling with citizens over the slightest perceived slight. I don't have arguments with citizens from Europe when I travel. If I am treated "badly", I am too busy figuring out what I may have done wrong so that I don't repeat it, thinking about whether this is just a garden-variety cultural difference, or perhaps taking it all in so that I can amuse others with the tale later. <BR> <BR>If anyone speaks English to you anywhere but places like England, you should be ever so grateful. I mean, I speak a little Spanish, but I don't feel it is my obligation to speak it in the U.S. I do it as a courtesy for courteous people. <BR> <BR>As for describing oneself as being upper middle class or white collar, that is kind of obnoxious and not relevant to anything. After all, your occupation tells whether you are blue collar, and there is no dishonor in that anyway. I am starting to think this post is a troll. <BR> <BR>Lastly, I notice that a few women have posted to say they often receive poor customer service. Is this something that happens more often to women, or are men being routinely abused as well?

nancy

Wow! <BR>Where I began to read all this, I felt a bit sorry for C N Loaf. <BR>After all, he was receiving a real bashing from all of you, mainly over his ignorance. <BR>And I don't mean just the "garcon" thing. <BR>I mean his general ignorance on how to be a tolerant person in this world of ours. <BR>Unfortunately there are many C.N.'s in this world, and that is a major reason I moved to rural Vermont 30 years ago. <BR>There were less persons like that up here. <BR>Unfortunately, things have changed and every yuppie from the Mid- Atlantic states with a computer has found their way north! <BR>What really banished any sympathy for C.N was his statement concerning why he labeled himself "upper middle class". <BR>Have blue collar workers really "developed the tendency to call themselves lower middle class"? <BR>That is a new one for me. <BR>Anyway we can't make C.N any less ignorant OR arrogant. <BR>But we can all practice tolerance where ever we go. <BR>Nancy